ah, hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . there are 2 kinds of conflicts being fought in ukraine, a western design in controlled propaganda war targeting russia and a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european continent. and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation. i cross sucking propaganda. i am joined by my guest garland nixon in washington. he's a political annals in providence. we have vladimir goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and. and i saw we have bjorn nice that he is in author and head of kaleidoscope russian information center. hi joeleen, crosstown rules are the fact that means it can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate a vladimir, let me go to you 1st here. american officials really reveal themselves when they're

asked about the conflict in ukraine. i in one a good example as the secretary defense lloyd austin, in care of. he was asked about america's aims and all of this. and he said, the u. s. hopes, russia will be, quote, unquote, weakened by the war. but what does that have to do with ukraine? per say. other than, you know, it is a proxy go head vladimir inadvertently. if you ask for market propaganda in it for granted meets that they go there. their purpose is not so much into using that these between the 2 warning, you know, countries not bringing them together. but actually is a engage in very heavily financed proxy war with russia. and they purposes to direct russia deeper and to weaken it. so we have with those to come to the, to the germs whereas, diplomacy and these to patient diplomacy proposes some kind of negotiation for the sake of peace, bees, or, or visit does not weaken the country. so, you know,

on the one hand, you know, nato countries in the west as were one. these were ones, she's, she's a hostility, but the other hand, they a store in trouble, they supply and more and more weapons they, you know, booting and threatening. and in doing all sort of thing is russia in order to, for the war to escalate. so it's, it's really confusing, but unfortunately the western public do not hear this will say he has something different day in day out, the poor, innocent ukraine. this is this david has to challenge the, you know, almighty goliath, that's the story which they bush, but behind the, behind the scene. it's quite or was it? yeah. but garland me pointed out on this program a number of times, i mean we go back to 2014, after the legal overthrow, the democratic government of unit coverage. and then crimea left the don bass left . and now we have this conflict. it started on february 24th and looking at the

military conflict here. i think we should say the obvious that ukraine gets smaller and smaller. the more at the west supports there's government in camps. i mean, i don't, i don't see what the ukrainians are getting out of this here. in fact, if, if in fact it is a proxy war, president zalinski is demanding that the u. s. cough up to $1000000000.00 a month just and you know, did descend it over. we'll see, you know, we'll, we'll send you a receipt later. i mean, this is getting absurd. go ahead. garland of 2 things. you know, i think we err if we view her vladimir zalinski as the president of ukraine. he is an actor and he does nothing other than what he's told to by his masters in washington dc. that's number one. i think also on it we, we have to view ukraine as a proxy war against russia, but it serves dual proxy purposes in the united states is at war with russia slash

china slash multi polarity. so that the idea that the concept of weakening russia is so that it will be easier to confront china and ultimately let's not forget even india, which i think they're smart enough to know they have aspirations of being a world power. at some point they have the population, they have the industry in the technology, and eventually, you know, they know that their number will come. so this is about weakening any potential powers that could threaten the u. s. world to germany. and right now they're starting with russia, the ukraine, beyond in our slow, if we take lloyd austin's words to heart, you know, he wants to weaken russia, but it seems to me it's weakening europe as a result as well. i mean, is that an american goal? i mean, obviously they want to have a gemini over europe. they don't want you to be competitors, but i don't see how the europeans win in this type of scenario. go ahead in oslo. it's this is obvious. one of the american, the goals is to have

a conflict between the germany do european union and, and russia to stop button deliveries of gas or oil and all the hood and natural resources. trump terms are shut the door money. and of course, this wouldn't be in your money, it would be in europe and method. it was presumably this thing, m m, america. so this is obviously one of the aim. so the, this war and that the, the americans and all the rest and i were sort of h at it against a russia. but i, i think that i of the aim sussman. i think the aim over american older accomplice is not just a propaganda victory in the ukraine. but as a you victory, i hope to win this war. and, and then david stalked, an older war, aggression against the russia. if it russia should lose in the ukraine. the

americans on their i, loss of it will do the same to russia as i did to the former yugoslavia that started to split the country. so this is an existence shouldn't crit to russia ever since that so called end of the cold, the war. the aim over america has been to crush him as split the ocean and the other for these reasons and they does it have been expanded. yeah, i've had to see who in the ukraine m. m and the americans have done everything possible to provoke if war in the ukraine. it looks like they weren't latasha uminski agreement slip of, they encouraged them the ukrainians to, to start what was the dd, an attack on the don boss? if it at a shot, the reacted the meditatively. it don't boss with the good. that being said, it didn't it see the median. this is in says it agency, but i've been occupied,

but you're trained in force of them. do you with at the still fix the situation? so the americans forced a russia to reactivate military, of course, is the so called the ukrainian, the president. this gets that many americans went with the, the result was a lot of mir. and this is what we have led to believe that there was going to be a ukrainian attack on the don bass. hence they had the vast majority. the ukranian side is the mass majority of their military in the east. well, it's been just completely cut off from the west. they keep talking about winning vladimir winning, winning this war. but the war is already lost, but one more that they were killed, they do seem to win. is the propaganda war? because that's, if you look at cable tv, what you see is a propaganda war. you don't see a real war. go ahead. vladimir. yeah, there is definitely in reality and narratives. and unfortunately, in today's world,

you know, who controls in there. if you know control controls reality, so i think it's are the, until eventually reality actually looks into our faces in heats our face. but we're gonna be in is just narrative and that idea was very strong. you know, innocent. graham's analysts amount of be just a bomb houses that were on extra to this boom houses weren't on the bus in 2015. yes, it is asthma. they are gullible, western public by the speak, just in thinks that you know this, you will, russian empire, which is always a will. and it is always up to some mischief is destroying innocent life. so this is propaganda by this propaganda. it can be a big city, in other words, for how long this lies can go on. remember, for example, how united states decided to support in afghanistan supports look kind of the most outrageous kind of island people, including latin who was fighting that they gave them all the weapons exactly like, you know, nowadays in the great and then these guys john against united states and then the

united states government holder, dennis than well for for years. so this propaganda for danger propaganda was, is it eventually the verbage is begin to believe their own lives and the wants of this happened. they don't deal with alice. you're older you. oh yeah, because the is long as you have a narrative without context, you can get away with just about anything. garland, i'm glad that vladimir brought that up. you could mention afghanistan. yes, we're supporting the worst part of elements of society. the breakup of yugoslavia, libya, syria, you go on and on and on, it's the same playbook. and now we have these nazi like characters that are deeply embedded in the ukranian military and security apparatus in the government. and the u. s. once again, their money, we've seen this horror picture before. it always ends badly. garland, one of the things it's happening to here that i think is important is to understand that there is economic pain in the west, including the united states. the,

you know, when we talk about the information war only talk about the propaganda war. we have to remember it is aimed at the people of the united states. it is aimed at the people in europe. and it's at the west specifically because if these people knew the truth, they wouldn't support the activities that their government is carrying out. because it's not in their best interest in any way, shape or form. i do believe that time is not on the side of these. i mean i, we use the words neocons, but let's be honest. they're just fascist. and it's only reasonable that these fastest would be aligned with the fastest in the, in, in, you know, whether it's afghanistan or, or ukraine. but i think times not on their side, because as the economic pain rises in the united states and in europe, the people are going to ask their leaders to address that economic pain and the incompetent, hapless bunglers that are trying to model their way through this particular no

problem, the crisis in ukraine are wholly unable to address the problems at home. and i think the problem that the us in our empire is going to have is uprisings at home, uprisings in europe and being unable to hold their coalition together. it would shock me, you know, if they can make it through the end of the summer into the fall. if not that, when it gets cold, the empire is going to have to start looking in where to save itself. well we, we do have reports for british media talking about fuel insecurity. i haven't heard that one before. there's a lot of insecurities where now we have fuel insecurity. one of the, one of the most prosperous countries in the world with millions and millions of people in britain will be facing fuel insecurity. if this issue hasn't been resolved about a russian energy to europe and it's self inflicted my friends, they decided this. they don't want this commodity. no one is forcing them to import it. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on propaganda staying

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industry to restock and just look up some of novels only a muscle is on noon. she kitty doesn't being in the green shield on nice to me as possible. mama cook go show it to somebody to look at that to his ashley. of this it wanted to work with one to 3. if this sort of cool with you, but now it's not looking for the chino drawings to network for furnished or something like that. and then we got that for that that might be worth a, me say, a little grain lisa. ah nice to come to the russian state. little never,

i've side on the northland scheme development. i'm not getting all sunset for a group in the 55 when. okay, so my niece madeline speaking, when else calls with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. ca, yep, machine. the state aunt, rush up to date and split our tea sport mckibbin our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with ah, cannot. i welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing propaganda. ah,

okay, let's go back to be our in, in, in our slow b, r. and i mean, as a european, we are, how do you take in our people in your country viewing this attempt to completely utterly cancel russia in every sense of the term? i mean, it's literature, it's music, it's athletes, everything. i've never seen anything like this on this scale. you know, it is, it's a collective guilt and apparently, you know, that was something we shouldn't um, apply to all individuals of one group. and that's exactly what's happening here. it's really remarkable for me to see western liberalism really show their true, intolerant face. go had b on yes i'm, i'm at some reaching and that i missed her. i am just, i can just say that i'm ashamed. i in of the way rushes than most and today's, even in norway it russians are depicted like didn't all sit depicted russians in

the reaching mass media are not, not just against the cool in the russian political system or russian foreign policy and so on. but the russians are described as not humans at the, at the what, what the dorman loss is called the own dimension. not, not, not the humans. so that at that he did demise. and we have a, had the in to use it. ukrainian, the shower parachutes are so boasting, hold the kid a russians, and so on. and even during the verse 2 periods of the cold war, we did not have this them on the station, not mother. of course it's the so if you knew the political system of them almost at that, then there was some kind of sympathy for ordinary people in the solid unit for ordinary russians. but to day be, have it, did he did it a sister fascist them on the station of it, a russian cult turner at or a russian

a p people, everything connected. they did a sham, and this, in my opinion, shows that they both have today is on the attempt of the rest to destroy a sham. i'm oh, of course it's awesome. let's plan them all the mass media record united. and so i'm, so that is a very interesting situation and in my view, but what's happening today isn't an existential threat to a, to the ocean. and, and that are some of the use every, every possible means to, to win this war and re gain control of the territory of ukraine. otherwise, russia sentenced will be destroyed. yeah, well, lot of merit. so a russian yourself here. so, i mean, i've come across these, these articles in western media, in all of russia's woes, go back to adult ski abaski in the other great writers of the 19th century. i mean, you're an expert on this here. i found resend literature from the $900.00 century inspiring, but apparently it's the devil's work. vladimir explain?

yeah, it's you know, lutheran, she is amazing. and i'm a teacher teaching that course this semester on the article story in this by asking students admire that. and every everyone brings something to it, to their tax, and bring a lot of art with a stick. it's ministry to reach tremendously kind of rewarding a culture and in this character counseling thing which, where registration are the most is that you can can. so maybe you know, tennis player mid video for over a single nebraska, but you can, you know, cancel jewel griffey. you can cancel houston, you cannot against our, our culture. you know, it all is liberal school. who will, i have more than happy to blame russia. they, they are very much concerned with climate change. is clarissa ok? why is the biggest chunk of earth it's it's, it's absolutely involved in sol, ling of the global problems, including climate. how can you cancel this?

be jan, bristle and, and then to try to talk about, you know, control in the resources not to abuse in mother earth. this is ridiculous. the same thing with history. you know, when all that history i just looked at the date in 271927 great reason decided that the rashly spine against them, the whole thing was the blade then like a scruples. there was some kind of energy which got some intelligence and rations are going to steal india from, from a great britain. so they broke my direct relationship only like several years later that historian, because they realized that there is another threat on the horizon. hitler and it's a country one, maybe we can beat their partner. in other words, this is unbelievably my, your big, unbelievably so kind of gorging. and eventually i agree with your time is on the russian side because you cannot cancel, you know, such a powerhouse as a rationalist, you know, you can cancel the united states, you're going to cancel china and it will absurd to cancel, you know,

russia. yeah. but garland, it's really quite a standing that there even attempting to do that. i mean, you know, russia is a very, as played a very important role in modern european history in world politics. and this attempt to cancel and to demonize. i mean, if you just use, you know, in the, you're looking at the rhetoric that's using, again, being used against russians to demonize all russians. i mean, if you said that about israelis, you know what people would say, you know, if you said that about muslims, you know what people would say, but it doesn't count when it comes to russians that is extraordinary. and that shows how hollow liberalism is on the west today. go ahead. garland. yeah, i agree with you. and i think we, you know, we should look too deep into this philosophically into what they're doing. it is simply a tactic. it is simply a, a, you know, a tactic that's used currently. they're not thinking this in, into this deeply in the same way. if you remember when donald trump was running, he's a sexual, sexist, and a misogynist when bernie sanders was run it. he was

a sexist in a massage in this. now, to russia, they have a one or 2 tactics, and they use these tactics regardless of the opponent. that's all they have. i think this is what we have to also understand is what we're looking at. and i think we have the start using that term. the ultra liberals, the neocons, are really fascist, and they really don't care. they use words and accusations as a means to an end. they don't care if there is any substance to what they're saying . in fact, i would argue that the censorship we're seeing now is a war on critical thinking, what, what google and facebook and twitter are all doing is they're trying to ensure that the non substantive, superficial arguments that are put forward by the state department. and at the a and the, and our intelligence communities are not evaluated, that there is no depth of argument. and they have to the censorship to meet demonstrates that they are losing and that the people who are making in depth

arguments are hurting, hurting their, their cause. and i just think they're desperate right now. yeah, i think there is an enormous amount of desperation here because the more they say that the, the russians are losing the ukrainians are winning, the more desperate they get, you know, the horn and that goes to all of these war crimes, accusations, false flag operations. um and i, i actually with the 2nd phase of the military operation on going in ukraine. i expect a lot more of the sensationalist story so far every single one of them has fallen apart. but that's not for trying. go ahead, bjorn. it in a way you could say that the isa accusation of war crimes are in the way in encouraging it because it means that the ukraine is loosing, that the war and the american, the of warmongers. i are getting it desperate,

and i am sure there would be new crow occasions. i am almost 100 percent percent sure. soon there will be m a after sation of a it or show you steve mudy, some kind of shame because it's been in the ukraine yesterday to to promote a rest and intervention. ok. ok, but like i'm here at the end of the day, ukraine is really a foot note and all of this. and if you look at blink in austin and all these other clowns, what they worry most is that they want to deny russia any kind of victory. that's their, that's what they want. it, they don't care the damage. should they create the carnage? they don't care about any of it. they don't want what it particularly like may or boot in to when. that's what this is all about. vladimir. yeah, i think what's important is, carla mentioned, bureau is that they want to set an example for other cons. now. yeah, you know,

fighting against, you know, kind of miles people or wall. and if the marriage to kind of, to get that victory over russia, one way or another, it sends a video kind of cheating message to china. india don't mess with us. and that's what they try to do. so it is an essential struggle. i would say for own form of multi polar world, the world with respects, you know, each country you know, is this kind of united states can hit germany, which manifests itself in a different germany in but he did go hit germany in committed that huge emma and so on and you know, what is interesting to, to go back to history. you know, i, you know, i've seen it before. i've seen it in, when you do that in newspapers, into 3 channels, try to impose a narrative. i remember like, you know, you mentioned that you know, ok. you fighting a role, you know, the was of 6773 and so was it was the saw is do they just cancel it or what is it

does not mention. they presented some information. there of course is a, we knew it was a losing, and the whole is laughing and it, you know, you can and cancel. you have to call it, you know, i'm not saying that this time to write this down, you know, but you have to, you know, even handedly, it could cost what the, the whole us blender became a license stock. and now when they see this property, this propaganda to over begun to deduct, i have the same feeling the right of struggle is stupid allies. fences is battled as some kind of drew's. yeah. you know, go and what, what i find really interesting is that, you know, you have all of these a blow hard on, on tv, you know, we have to defend the, the sovereignty of ukraine. but there's an open western southern border in the united states. and then, you know, everyone should it be able to determine their security means, except for russia. i mean, it's all the russian so aren't allowed to have any kind of security needs. i mean they, they would, they,

they trip over their own feet in their own mouths every single day in talking about this. it doesn't make any coherent sense whatsoever. go ahead, garland. well, the hypocrisy is astounding. in fact, just in the last few days, scott morrison from the, from australia said that the u. s. and the u. k. was drawing a red line in the solomon islands. that is the, i know 1000 miles from the united states of 1000 kilometers from australia. the u. s. and the u. k. say, that's a red line. now ukraine is less than one millimeter from russia. russia has no sphere of influence. and meanwhile, the u. s. and the u. k. apparently have taken the whole pacific, the pacific ocean, and my question would be this. does the solomon islands have a red line? apparently, there is no sovereignty. it only applies to ukraine. it does not apply to the solomon's island. i mean, they have broken the hypocrisy meter here in the last few days. well, i think garland, that's why the global south doesn't want to have anything to do with this because

they, the further you get away from london in washington, the more hypocritical it seems. ok, that's why they're not throwing their lot in this. they have to take care of their people. they're thinking about their own sovereignty and not make allowing others to dictate what that sovereignty is. that's the world we live in gentlemen. that's all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington and, and also. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, rocky. see you next time. remember cross with ah oh, is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed? what will make you feel safe?

isolation, whole community. are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. oh i just don't a whole new world. yes. to feed out the same becomes the african and engagement. it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. ah. since the break away of the doughnuts, people's republic whew has been ranging and don't boss. ukrainian. artillery has been shelling civilian towns and mining villages that new york more lovely deal with a new one with a deal about one of these up the a little of as of all of the 3 of the little boys will give those bullet one ah,

3. i mean with the un chief coals for global multi polarity during his 1st visit to russia since ukraine complete begun stressing the need to keep alive the values of multilateralism. amid the was international fallout, we're going to put, despite the fact that the military operation is ongoing, we still hope that we will be able to reach agreements on the diplomatic front. we are negotiating, we do not reject the negotiations. meanwhile, the u. k. is armed forces ministers as ukraine should be able to target russian territory the nato weapon. the russian for ministry says nato countries are competing to send more lethal weapons to ukraine.