o, the osman rule, i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported finance or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. i. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history archaeological sites. the people are a warm, polite,

and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which has continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take that take place. i, when i was that had 20112012, we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration was started, the 6 day war, where was israel? so borden and destroying relief is between britain and libya before they warmed up

. again, obviously under tony blair was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times. and before that bucks off the g community with a jewish community. yes, yes, that's correct. i thought i after the, the, the wall was the shape of maybe a big, big i'm to be mapped out by the i forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. in 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in as the festival,

and also the sovereignty could emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clack. so the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidence, which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and the are. i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but there was a small group of people who are looking at

a possible home not for for jewish people, and it is correct you. it gives a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, 11 day i think freshman after the war where it was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the i the jewish community and they are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job, but they were sent me contracts where it, where it really got difficult was where, where their contracts are in the 960 s. and in particular the tank contract, which question was i had with these ready government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready brought to, i had some of the tension of the arab is writing more than 1967,

which i say is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in the geopolitical relationships . well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries where they were arming each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with libya. certainly americans backed off and not sense. and the, and then neighboring country, egypt, both the soviet union, the russians. and i'm the american, we're trying to put a friend, nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations,

which attracted many of the young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself and once the nuclear submarine program was and chase, the buncombe, mama, i grab diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's, 80 seconds. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resource? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that gadhafi was

going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very old country with very natural gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in the 1950 britain who is economic b popping up the country helping h to move forward. now, the model that i've written havens and i, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to at republicanism or a bit harsh on they are shown green. elizabeth. the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief, was me. i mean, that the historians of the time say,

the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new file. well, did that in a dominant way? i forgot the match train yet and with the ira. ira lee, but now i wouldn't. i wouldn't put all the lay of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course,

a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolution on council to power it? i think i think more we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with minor tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m yet, but i will change have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living standards, health care education, the libyan people, i mean king address was a catastrophe,

wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get effie came to power as we no, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity, and king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i think they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as immediate as i could talk about just going back to the causes of that. a cou, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to, to king a truce. the nomination at ha was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided if you like the fact you as can you dress fell, he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate?

and the put his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and, and therefore, there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to pi, wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side change. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get off. he brought to the libyan people, and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt into his ear. in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you are talking about king edges, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that anyone,

that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well, not that's not the libya that i i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross and all the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the gadhafi richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history. i was just denied by you. daffy's follow isn't safe, i'll get f. he's full as roby is going to become the next president group. we look, i'll stop you that more from the former commander british forces in libya and

author of liberating the be a british diplomacy and more in the desert after this break. ah, ah a

day becomes the advocate an engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves will to pardon we choose to look so common ground. ah, welcome back. i'm celia with rupert, we locally formed commander british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 husky back

slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the big, successful paragraphs that godaddy brought it was the great mind bait river which oh, water from the aquifers and that as it up to the coast, i'm so that was, i was progress. i'm and i not was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, i and the, the war and chat, which i said to the dawning of the 2 flights that i've lockerbie flight. there was a need to at, to try and rein him back and said the international commands, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operation, them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to

they might have been of the past vote as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i sounds at the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela?

i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say, adored her momma gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of a person being a can you and it was never any colonial power. what the ottoman rule it and the 900 century, and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army after that. i'm ramos africa. you mean it says in the sense that we have us bases in britain. britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states. is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the u. n. administration brought

libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price, egypt mandate was too high. first the money and secondly, in territory they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c ha that to be gyptian rather that. and then it and that was to hire parts. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economically they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sar, any kids in the east, the facade in the south, and the trip all the time to, pertaining to the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal

areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get their feet participated in councils under the good afi government . i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting get effie, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program, that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference?

i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman, it's and rewind. and which is, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the condemning that they did actually get off his actions. and his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya,

you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i want to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response.

it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity. you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the mistake, the black flag, which appears after 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were most worried about i did my grad and trap the trip with dr. belmont.

but did you fight with any of those people, the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now? i was, i, i came in, i was appointed just before it was captured, to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that because it's been like and the whole new invasion as basically pulling a coke of top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of what we see drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups, any true to that?

when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nations security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5 actually voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for went through the stages and you one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the until 9 am would be said this regime regime has failed miserably. i get off the mostly on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the said yardley has officially requested your nice nation security council to impose and no flying against any military action against libya. so it wasn't,

it was the west. i say it was the international community complete and all members of the security council is not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the on it, that's pretty sad that it wasn't a united front. i'm serious. well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on your military intervention in syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower islam is to train them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american

involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis. that the entire british project has bizarrely being to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that whole. it is good about human kind now and i said i saw i think it is now make stretch. if you call that a threat, i the, the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back and i do in my chapter on the italo ottoman ball tell the story of an albanian arrived. it was very much about the islam. it cause say this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very deep in the psyche of a chair, strategic and our roadway. oh,

good. not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much for coming out. that's it for what are your favorite shows of the season, the theme, and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch wire all our social media if it's available in your country and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the ground episodes on auto see that r t dot com see very soon ah, when i was a kid and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look for common ground.

oh, nice to come to the russian state to narrative. i've started as i phone and the most 19 div mckindoe's house lamps, and that for a group in the 55 when. okay, so i need to bargain speedy when else calls with will ban in the european union. the kremlin move. yup. machines. the state aren't russia for date and school r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and pinterest, and we put push videos. if even chris with

me there are 2 kinds of conflicts being fought in ukraine. a western design in controlled propaganda war targeting russia and a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european continent. and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation. ah, since that break away of the donates people's republic woo has been raging and don't boss ukrainian. artillery it's been shelling civilian townsend, mining village. is that new york more lovely deal with waterloo. what with the school, with a doable, was probably a little above level to be

a pretty slow ball school did. it was quality for them. ah, un chief visits. moscow fitz holds on the ukraine conflict, states that he understands russia, security concerns, which must be resolved through the un, with russian presidents reiterating hopes of a negotiated agreement with kip who's with, despite the fact that the military operation is ongoing. we still hope that we will be able to reach agreements on the diplomatic front. we are negotiating, we do not reject the negotiations. meanwhile, the u. k is armed forces minister says ukraine should be able to target russia with nato weapons. the russian foreign ministry says nato countries all competing to send more lethal weapons to ukraine and drive less which of fuel thermostats and we're.