a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european continent and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation with i'm action retention, you're watching going underground team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation and the you. censorship, but until then we'll be showing some of your favorite chose a for season so far after tanzania watching, going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on,

the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that they say father's lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader. mama gadhafi address libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic. as africans, riches per capita, country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule, occupation of poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and is britons ro key joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is rupert, we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating to be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert for coming on . anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011, the invasion. your book starts in 631 b. c. was that ha, lydia has a much deeper history than european involvement. so our conquest o the osman rule,

and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite,

and they're welcoming i box. and unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take that take place. i, when i was that had 20112012. we're going to have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in the, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so a born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up.

again, obviously under tony blair, while there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i'm before that bucks off the g community with a jewish believe it. yes. yes, that's correct. i thought i, after the, the war was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be governed. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course that had been experiments with the republic in the 1st 4 and also the sovereignty can

emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clad so as the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidence, which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and the are, i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya, to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911, but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home not for for jewish people. and it is correct. you give it

a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think christian after the war where was to settings and as it is now trying to find a balance between supporting both the i the jewish community and they are communities. i thought is not an easy job, but they were sent me contracts where it, where it really got difficult was way, way them a contract. psalms and the 1960 s. and in particular, the tank contract, which christian was i hired with israel government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready wrote to i had some of the tension of the arab is writing more in 1967, which i see is very much of

a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember we were in the time to call and, and certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy, countries where they were on each other. but for good reasons. it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with, with libya. certainly, americans backed off and not sense. and i'd be in the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union. the russians and americans were trying to their friend nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab

nations, which attracted many of the young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by suffering and once the nuclear submarine program was in chase, the buncombe program diminished very quickly and say, really didn't play to baker pops and the late sixty's, 87. so if one forgets the support from the libyan people for britain, but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resource? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that the gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right,

that oil changed everything up until that point as libya was then, as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or academics. so in the 1950 britain who is economic the popping up the country helping it to move forward. now the model books are written favors and, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to at republicanism or a bit harsh on they are shown green, elizabeth, the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief, was me. i mean, that this during that time say,

the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king interests at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling that dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found well in a dominant way. it africa the next train yet and with the ira. ira lee, but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the name of corruption. it a failure of intel it, i mean the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from

the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping really be and people surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolution a con council to power it. i think i think what we have to remember, rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with milo tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand de it, as an it will, i will change. have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living standards, health care education for the living people, i mean king address was a catastrophe,

wasn't even the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get effie came to power. as you know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i did, they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to, to kicking a truce. the nomination i saw was, was not dame suitable by the libyan people. i'm not. i provided if you like the fact you as can you dress fell, he was too old to continue. and at work was i going to abdicate,

and the but his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and therefore there was the vacuum. and that's, that's why he came to buy wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete phase of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to have with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european site came to. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get off. he brought the libyan people, and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt into his ear. in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you are talking about king andrew's, his replacement being better,

i mean it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi all be before the arab spring. well, not that's not the libya that i i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross and all the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good api richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history of which he has denied by it after his followers in favor, i'll get off his followers. roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces libya and author of liberating the be a british diplomacy in warren,

the desert after this break. ah ah ah ah ah ah with ah ah though sure,

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welcome back. i'm celia with rupert, we locally formed commander british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser, with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think what one house go back slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the big successful programs that gadhafi brought it was the great my bait river, which oh, what her from the acquisition that as it up to the coast. so they would, they was progress and that was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that,

and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 flights. i've locked flight there was a need to to, to try and rein him back and said the international commands, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operation. them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to there might have been other possible as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 990 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held,

which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i, i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe over imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say, adored her momma gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of present being a colonial power. and it was never any colonial power where the ottoman rule and the 1900 century, and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943

when britain defeated the italian army ramos africa co mean i sent in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence at $951.00. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price, egypt mandate was too high. fast in money. and secondly, in territory. they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c ha, that to be junction rather that then it and that was to

higher price. and therefore the libyans asked to help because economically they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sirens in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to pertaining to the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas, not the people per se, who, according to get, after participated in counselors under the good afi government. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m. d, in the very important issue of that which was to the 4 in nature countries obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting good effie, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass

destruction program, that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sub nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported complete the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of chevron and rewind, and which is as a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the

resolution 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the condemning that it actually i get off his actions and i, his statement about what he was going to do to population coffee, $70.00 a more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, do you think on the ground when you are with your british soldiers? they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want my school to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be

a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i think i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity. you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's,

there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the next day, the black flag, which appears after 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those that sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington, 911. well, we were marshall worried about i did my bread and trap the trip. eat with mock turbo motor, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises

to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that because it's been like and the whole nature invasion as basically putting a coke of the job of africa in terms of the refugee crisis, with thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth, and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed and the united nation security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the resolutions which were all the security council. 34 went through the stages. and one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action

on the 22nd of february, 2011 the, until 9 am, i'll put the said this regime regime has failed miserably. i get off the mostly on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent yardley has officially requested united nations security council to impose and then flying against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west per say. it was the international community completely, and all members of the security council did not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the, on it, that's pretty sad that there wasn't a united front and syria. well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact

of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis. that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about good. now i don't, i'm so i think it is not a threat if you call that a threat at the, at the feelings of the islamic extremist extend way

back i do, in my chapter on the a ball tell the story of an albanian arrived. it was very much a cause. so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very in the psyche of a strategic center roadway. oh, good. not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much. you got me on that set for what are your favorite shows of this season? the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going underground episodes on odyssey ladaja dot com, she very soon ah,

ah, ah oh no, no. when i was shown seemed wrong when all 3, just a 2 feet out. disdain becomes the answer. kid. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah.