ah, ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to crosstalk. were all things are considered? i'm peter lavelle. there are 2 kinds of conflicts being fought in ukraine, a western design in controlled propaganda war targeting russia and a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european continent. and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation. ah,

cross sucking propaganda. i am joined by my guest garland nixon in washington. he's a political annals in providence. we have vladimir goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university and. and i saw we have bjorn nice that he is in author and head of kaleidoscope russian information center, our joeleen cross sack rules and the fact that means it can jump at any time you want. and i always appreciate a vladimir, let me go to you 1st here. american officials really reveal themselves when they're asked about the conflict in ukraine. i in one a good example as the secretary defense lloyd austin, in care of. he was asked about america's aims and all of this. and he said, the u. s. hopes, russia will be, quote, unquote, weakened by the war. but what does that have to do with ukraine? per say. other than, you know, it is a proxy go head vladimir inadvertently. you're asked for a bargain propaganda in it for granted meets that they go there. their purpose is

not so much into using the beast between the 2 warning, you know, countries not bringing them together. but actually they engage in very heavily financed for oxy war with russia. and they purposes to direct russia deeper and to weaken it. so we can with order to come to the, to the germs whereas, diplomacy and these to patient diplomacy presupposes some kind of negotiation for the sake of bees, bees, or, or visit does not weaken the country. so, you know, on the one hand, you know, nato countries in the west as were one. these were ones, she's, she's a hostilities, but the other hand, their store in trouble, they are supplying more and more weapons they, you know, booting and strengthening and in doing all, also those things that is russia in order to, for the war to escalate. so it's, it's really confusing, but unfortunately the western public do not look here. this will say, here is something different day in day out, that poor, innocent ukraine. this is this david has to challenge the, you know,

almighty goliath, that's the story which they bush, but behind the, behind the scene. it's quite or was it? yeah. but garland me pointed out on this program a number of times, i mean we go back to 2014, after the legal overthrow, the democratic government of unit coverage. and then crimea left the don bass left . and now we have this conflict. it started on february 24th and looking at the military conflict here. i think we should say the obvious that ukraine gets smaller and smaller. the more at the west supports there's government in camps. i mean, i don't, i don't see what the ukrainians are getting out of this here. in fact, if, if in fact it is a proxy war, president zalinski is demanding that the u. s. cough up to $1000000000.00 a month just and you know, did descend it over. we'll see, you know, we'll, we'll send you a receipt later. i mean, this is getting absurd. go ahead. garland of 2 things. you know,

i think we err if we view a vladimir zalinski as the president of ukraine. he is an actor and he does nothing other than what he's told to by his masters in washington dc. that's number one. i think also on it, we have to view ukraine as a proxy war against russia, but it serves dual proxy purposes in that the united states is at war with russia slash china slash multi polarity. so that the idea that the concept of weakening russia is so that it will be easier to confront china and ultimately let's not forget even india, which i think they're smart enough to know they have aspirations of being a world power. at some point they have the population, they have the industry in the technology, and eventually, you know, they know that their number will come. so this is about weakening any potential powers that could threaten the u. s. world to germany. and right now they're starting with russia, the ukraine, the on in our slow,

if we take lloyd austin's words to heart, you know, he wants to weaken russia, but it seems to me it's weakening europe as a result as well. i mean, is that an american goal? i mean, obviously they want to have a gemini over europe, and they don't want you to be competitors, but i don't see how the europeans win in this type of scenario. go ahead in oslo. it's did, this is obvious. one of the american, the goals is to have a conflict between germany, do european union and, and russia to stop button deliveries of gas or oil and all the hood and natural resources. trump thumbs are shut the door money. and of course, this wouldn't be in your money, it would be in europe and, but it was presumably this thing, num, america. so this is obviously walmart ain't so the diesel war and that the, the americans on all the rest and how were suited h a against a russia. but i,

i think that are all the aim sussman. i think the aim over american order a concert is not just a propaganda in fixture in the ukraine, but the u. victory. they hope to win this war. and then then they would start an older war, aggression against the russia. if it russia should loosen the ukraine, americans on their i, loss of it will do the same to russia as that it is the former yugoslavia that they would started to split the country. so this is an existence in a crate to russia ever since that so called end of the called the war. the aim over america as into crush m is split the ocean and then for the, for the city, since in the does it have been a, it's bounded. yeah. i've had this

a coup in the ukraine, and the american said, done everything possible to, to provoke a if war in the ukraine. it looked like they weren't patasha uminski agreement slip of they encouraged them the ukrainians to to start what was eating an attack on a gun boss. if an a shad not the act of the military it dump also noted would have been done. it's been a median, this is and says it, city and populations it would have been occupied by your crane and forces and you would have catastrophic. this is a situation so that the americans forced to her russia through the act. the military and of course is the so called the ukrainian, the president, this has been an american off, it went with the, the result was the latter mirror. and this is what we have led to believe that there was going to be a ukrainian attack on the don bass. hence they had the vast majority. the ukranian side is the mass majority of their military in the east woods,

been just completely cut off from the west. they keep talking about winning vladimir winning, winning this war. but the war is already lost, but one more that they are king, they do seem when is the propaganda war? because that's, if you look at cable tv, what you see is a propaganda war. you don't see a real war. go ahead. vladimir. yeah, there is definitely in reality and narratives. and unfortunately in today's world, you know, who controls in energy if you know control controls reality. so i think it's are the, you know, until eventually reality actually looks into our faces and heats our face. but when i'm being a just narrative and that it was very strong, you know, innocent graham's analysts amount of be just a bomb houses that were on extra to this bond houses weren't on boss in 2015. yes ma'am. they are available western public by the speak just and thinks that, you know, this will russian empire, which is always he will and is always up to some mischief is destroying innocent

lives. so this is propaganda by this program. it can be a big city, in other words, for how long this lice can go on. remember, for example, how united states decided to support it. again, it's done support that kind of the most outrageous kind of island people have blue line who was fighting that they gave them all the weapons exactly like, you know, nowadays in the great and then these guys john against united states and then united states got involved in of denison work for 4 years. so this propaganda, the danger propaganda was eventually the, the, the 30 days begin to believe their own lives and the ones that this happened. they don't do with alice your own. oh yeah. well, because the is long as you have a narrative without context, you can get away with just about anything. garland, i'm glad that vladimir brought that up. you could mention afghanistan, yes, supporting the worst part of the elements of society. the breakup of yugoslavia, libya, syria, you know,

on and on and on. it's the same playbook. and now we have these nazi like characters that are deeply embedded in the ukranian military and security apparatus in the government. and the u. s. once again, their money. we've seen this hor picture before. it always ends badly. garland, one of the things that's happening to here that i think is important is to understand that there is economic pain in the west including the united states. the, you know, when we talk about the information war, when we talk about the propaganda war, we have to remember it is aimed at the people of the united states. it is aimed at the people in europe. and it's at the west specifically because if these people knew the truth, they wouldn't support the activities that their government is carrying out. because it's not in their best interest in any way, shape or form. i do believe that time is not on the side of these. i mean i, we use the words neocons, but let's be honest. they're just fascist. and it's only reasonable that these fastest would be aligned with the fastest in the, in, in, you know,

whether it's afghanistan or, or ukraine. but i think times not on their side, because as the economic pain rises in the united states and in europe, the people are going to ask their leaders to address that economic pain and the incompetent, hapless bunglers that are trying to model their way through this particular no problem, the crisis in ukraine are wholly unable to address the problems at home. and i think the problem that to us in our empire is going to have is uprisings at home, uprisings in europe and being unable to hold their coalition together. it would shock me, you know, if they can make it through the end of the summer into the fall. if not that when it gets cold, the empire is going to have to start looking in where to save itself. well we, we do have reports for british media talking about fuel insecurity. i haven't heard

that one before. there's a lot of insecurities where now we have fuel insecurity. one of the month, one of the most prosperous countries in the world with millions and millions of people in britain will be facing fuel insecurity. if this issue hasn't been resolved about our russian energy to europe and it's self inflicted my friends, they decided this, they don't want this commodity. no one is forcing them to import it. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on propaganda staying with with

with is your media reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? high selection community. are you going the right way,

or are you being led to somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths, remains in the shallows. ah, ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, to remind you we're discussing propaganda with . okay, let's go back to be our in, in, in our slow born. i mean, as a european, we are. how do you take, and how are people in your country viewing this attempt to completely utterly cancel russia in every sense of the term? i mean, it's literature, it's music, it's athletes and everything. i've never seen anything like this on this scale. you

know, it is, it's a collective guilt and apparently, you know, that was something we shouldn't apply to all individuals of one group. and that's exactly what's happening here. it's really remarkable for me to see western liberalism really show their true, intolerant face. go ahead beyond yes i'm, i'm at some reaching and that i missed her. i am just, i can just say that i'm been ashamed. i in of the way rushes than most. and today's, even in norway, russians are depicted like didn't. law says depicted russians in the region. mass media are not, not just against the cool in the russian political system or russian foreign policy and so on. but the russians are described as not humans at the, at the what, what the dorman loss is called the own dimension, not the humans. so that at that he did demise. and we have a,

had the in to use it ukrainian, the shower parachute or so boasting hold the kid the a russians and so on. and even during the verse 2 periods of the cold war, we did not have this them on the station, not mother. of course, it's the so if you knew the political system of them almost. but that then there was some kind of sympathy for ordinary people in the solid unit for ordinary russians. but to day be, have it, did he did it a sister fascist them on the station of it, a russian called turner at our russian a p people, everything connected. they did a sham and this, in my opinion, shows that what we have today is open a 10th of the missed it to destroy it. and at a sham of course, it's also what's planned, then all the mass media record united and, and so on. so that is a very interesting situation and in my view,

but what's happening today, you sent an extension a to the ocean and the, and that are some of the use every, every possible means to, to win this war and re gain control of the territory of ukraine, otherwise it, russia tends to be destroyed. yeah. well, platinum air, and so a russian yourself here. so, i mean, i've come across these, these articles in western media, in all of russia's woes, go back to adults. k, obviously in the other great writers of the 19th century. i mean, you're an expert on this here. i found resend literature from the 19th century, inspiring, but apparently it's the devil's work. vladimir explain? yeah, it's in our leverage is amazing, and i'm a digit addition of course, this semester on the rental story in this by asking students of mileage and every, every one brings something to it, to their tax and bring a lot of odd with a stick. it's immensely reach tremendously kind of rewarding a culture and in a killers character counseling. think which rare registration are the most is that

you can can. so maybe you know, tennis player mid bit if was over a single nebraska, but again, you know, again, so jewel griffey, you can cancel history. you cannot jensen a culture, you know, it all is liberal school. who will, i have more than happy to blame russia. they, they are very much concerned with climate changes. clarissa, okay, why is the biggest chunk of earth it's, it's absolutely involved in solving the global problems included climate. well, how can you cancel this be jan bissell and, and then to try to talk about, you know, control in the resources not to abuse in. this is an equal the same thing with history. you know, when all that history i just looked at the date in 271927 great reason decided that rashly spying against them, the whole thing was replayed then, like a scruple. there was some kind of energy which got some intelligence and rations

are going to steal india from from great britain. so they broke my direct relationship only like several years later that historian, because they realized that there is another threat on the horizon. hitler. and it's a country one, maybe we can be their partners. so in other words, this is unbelievably my, your big, unbelievably self kind of gorging. and eventually i agree, it was your time is on the russian side because you cannot cancel, you know, a such a powerhouse as a rationalist, you know, you can cancel the united states, you're going to cancel china and it would absurd to cancel, you know, russia yeah. but garland, it's really quite a standing that there even attempting to do that. i mean, you know, russia is a very, as played a very important role in modern european history in world politics. and this attempt to cancel and to demonize. i mean, if you just use, you know, in the, you, looking at the rhetoric that's using, again, being used against russians to demonize all russians. i mean,

if you said that about israelis, you know what people would say, you know, if you said that about muslims, you know what people would say, but it doesn't count when it comes to russians that is extraordinary. and that shows how hollow liberalism is on the west today. go ahead. garland. yeah, i agree with you. and i think we, you know, we shouldn't look too deep into this philosophically into what they're doing. it is simply a tactic. it is simply a, a, you know, a tactic that's used currently. they're not thinking this in, into this deeply in the same way. if you remember, when donald trump was running, he was a sexual sexist. and a massage in this, when bernie sanders was run it, he was a sexist in a massage and is now russia, they have a one or 2 tactics and they use these tactics regardless of the opponent. that's all they have. i think this is what we have to also understand is what we're looking at. and i think we have the start using that term. the ultra liberals, the neocons, are really fascist, and they really don't care. they use words and accusations as

a means to an end. they don't care if there is any substance to what they're saying . in fact, i would argue that the censorship we're seeing now is a war on critical thinking. what, what google and facebook and twitter are all doing is they're trying to ensure that the non substantive, superficial arguments that are put forward by the state department. and that the a and the, and our intelligence communities are not evaluated. that there is no depth of argument and they have to the censorship to meet demonstrates that they are losing and that the people who are making in depth arguments are hurting, hurting their, their cause. and i, i just think they're desperate right now. yeah, i think there is an enormous amount of desperation here because the, the more they say that the, the russians are losing the ukrainians are winning, the more desperate they get, you know, the warren and that goes to all of these war crimes, accusations, false flag,

operations and i actually with the 2nd phase of the military operation on going and ukraine. i expect a lot more of these sensationalist stories so far. every single one of them has fallen apart, but that's not for trying. go ahead, burn isn't in the way you can say that the isa accusation of war crimes are in the way in encouraging it, because it means that the ukraine is losing the war and the american, the of war mongers. they are getting it desperate. and i am sure there would be new crow occasions. i am almost 100 percent percent sure. soon there will be an, a few sation over it, or should i use dignity some kind of extent because it's been in the ukraine yesterday to provoke a rest and intervention. okay, of right. okay. but the vladimir, at the end of the day, ukraine is really

a footnote in all of this. and if you look at blinking, and austin and all these other clowns, what they worry most is that they want to deny russia any kind of victory. that's their, that's what they want, and they don't care the damage, should they crated carnage. they don't care about any of it. they don't want what i particularly vladimir putin to win. that's what this is all about. vladimir. yeah, i think what's important is gala mentioned and beyond is that they want to set an example for other cons. now. yeah, you know, fighting against, you know, kind of miles people or wall. and if they manage to kind of get that victory over russia, one way or another, it sends a very kind of cheating message that china india don't mess with us. and that's what they try to do. so it is an essential struggle. i would say for own form of multi polar world, the world would you expect each country. busy or is this kind of united states can

hit germany, which manifests itself in there, a different germany in political hegemony in admitted that a huge, eminent and so on. and you know, what is interesting it to, to, to go back to history. you know, i, you know, i've seen it before. i've seen it in the soviet union. when you do that in newspapers, into the channel, try to impose a narrative. i remember like, you know, you mentioned israel. ok. israel fighting a role in the was of 6773 and so it was the saw is do they just cancel easily? what is it does not mention, they presented some information era was, is a, we knew it was a losing, and the whole is laughing. it, it, you know, you can and cancel you, you have to call it, you know, i'm not saying that this can do, right? this comes, you know, but you have to sort of treat, you know, even handedly. and you know, because one of the, the whole us and for belinda became a laughing stock. and now when they see this, a propaganda to over begun to the doctor. i have the same feeling you kind of

stolen is stupid allies. fences is battled as some kind of a droop. yeah. you know, grow and what i, what i find really interesting is that, you know, you have all these i blow hard on tv, you know, we have to defend the, the sovereignty of ukraine. but there's an open western bo, southern border in the united states, and then, you know, everyone should be able to determine their security. ne, except for russia. i mean, it's all the russian so aren't allowed to have any kind of security needs. i mean they, they would, they, they trip over their own feet in their own mouths every single day and talking about this. it doesn't make any coherent sense whatsoever. go ahead, garland. well, the hypocrisy is astounding. in fact, just in the last few days, scott morrison from the, from australia said that the u. s. and the u. k. was drawing a red line in the solomon islands. that is the, i know 1000 miles from the united states of 1000 kilometers from australia. the u.

s. in the u. k. say, that's a red line. now ukraine is less than one millimeter from russia. russia has no sphere of influence. and meanwhile, the u. s. and the u. k. apparently have taken the whole pacific, the pacific ocean, and my question would be this. does the solomon islands have a red line? apparently there's no sovereignty. it only applies to ukraine. it does not apply to the solomon's island. i mean, they have broken the hypocrisy meter here in the last few days. well, i think garland, that's why the global south doesn't want to have anything to do with this because they, the further you get away from london in washington, the more hypocritical it seems. ok, that's why they're not throwing their lot in this. they have to take care of their people. they're thinking about their own sovereignty and not make allowing others to dictate what that sovereignty is. that's the world we live in gentlemen. that's all the time we have many, thanks them, i guess in washington, providence, and in oslo. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next

time. remember process ah ah. a to see how an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, since the break away of the donates people's republic was been ranging and don't boss. ukrainian, artillery has been shelling civilian townsend, mining village,

is that your more? very lovely deal. with a blue one with when it was on the deal about one of your company a little above all of the 3 of the little boys will give us bullet one. ah

i'm african retention. you're watching going underground team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation in the you, censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite chose a for season so far after tanzania watching, going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that a say father's lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader. mama gadhafi address libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libya's history from foreign rule occupation of poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and his britons ro key. joining me now for the special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is ruby. we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert for coming on

. anyone would think a senior british commander would have a written the book just about the 2011 the invasion, or your bookstore in 631 b. c. was that why lydia has a much steeper history than european involvement or are conquest oh, the ottoman rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i should have got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was once africa's riches per capita, country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons.