the coming on, anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011 the invasion. your book starts in 631 b. c. why is that? why libya has a much deeper history than european involvement or are conquest oh, the ottoman rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya, what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was once africa's riches per capita, country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually as you say,

illegal migration or some form of violence where that's exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites that the people are a warm, polite, and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which has continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place by when i was that had 20112012. we're going to have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that

everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel for the bell, for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so a born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, well, there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i before that bucks off the g community with a jewish community. yes, yes, that's correct. about are after the, the war was the shape of libya big, big on to be mapped out by the i forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians

i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in as the 1st war and will say the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clag. so the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidence, which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community. and there are 2. i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it love

to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home, not for both jewish people. and it is correct you. it gives a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, 11 day i think christian off to the war where was to settings and as it is now trying to find a balance between supporting both the i the jewish community and they are communities. i. my thought is not an easy job, but they were sent me contracts where, where it really got difficult was where, where their contracts are in the 1960 s. and in particular, the tank contract,

which christian was i hired with israel government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready brought to i had some of the attention of the arab is writing more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember we were in the time to call and, and certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy, countries where they were on each other. but for good reasons. it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with, with libya, sent me the americans back off and not sense. and i,

b and the neighboring country, egypt by the soviet union. the russians and americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bowman to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean. while i may up until the stage when, when they were replaced by you just saw, i wants the nuclear submarine program and chase the buncombe program diminished very quickly and say really it didn't play to break apart and the night 60 seconds. so if we don't forget the support from the libyan people for britain,

but you want the world to remember and why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resources. the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or i cannot mix. so in the 1950 britain who is economic b popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model books written favors and, and i said he favored it in those days,

is the constitutional monarchy type model, which we have here, which is the alternative to at republicanism or ashatash on queen elizabeth the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, jolie guy, king address was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean, that the historians of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found well in a dominant way it,

i forgot the next train yet. i'm with the r r a plea, but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the lay of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about. in recent years, you'll from temporary rock, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary con council to power it. i think i think what we have to remember, rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship between interest began with my life

tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand d, as in m. yeah. well, i will change. i've done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't for the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get f game to power as we oh, the statistics im amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interested in bring any of these things to the libyan people. either they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as immediate as i could talk about just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success. i to,

i to king introduce the nomination at, ha, was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not, i provided if you like, the fact you, as can you dress fell? he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate, add the but his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable and, and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete fight it of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said origin, which is that this was a harsh place to have with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side change. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity,

and so on and all these amazing things get off. he brought the libyan people, and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt into his ear. in algeria, they indicate is, we're all terrible. it all those countries. so when you're talking about king edges, his replacement being better. i mean, it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well, now that's not libya, that's why i saw i went into the the museum of the martyrs and ms. ross and i saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good api richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people, ah,

was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history of his he has denied by it after his followers in favor. i'll get off his followers. roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in warren, the desert after this break. ah ah ah ah ah ah with

ah a those at them with industry to restock and just look up some of normally a muscle is running new immigrant g judy doesn't being in the green shield on a nurse to me as possible. mamma coquettish sit kit. suddenly tim got the right to his ashley of this it wanted, was it the biggest piece? goes down to come. you want to move please this, but of course with you but not, but the key for the cheenam bryanston that'll work for phones or something like that. and then we go with that with that

with welcome back. i'm still here with reuben, we locally formed, commander of british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually at when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of

the big successful programs that gadhafi brought it was the great my bait river which oh, water from the acrobat as it up to the text. and so they would, they was progress and that was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 fights. i've locked flight there was a need to to, to try and rein him back and said the international command, your convenience. it was a gadhafi operation, them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to there might have been other pos both as well, but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 990 s. i was in any

way incorrect to budget what it did, i mean, you know, that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not prove. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe over imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported the revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say adored mammography. yes, i had a good relationship,

but i have to correct you on the issue of pressure being a colonial part. and it was never any colonial power. what the ottoman rule it and the 1900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army at that time. i'm ramos africa co. mean, i says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states. is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt. but the price,

egypt mandate was too high. fast in money. i'm secondly, in territory they want to see a large i waste child, which is the as a new see that to be gyptian rather that and then it. and that was to hire products. and therefore, the libyans asked chris to help because economic a, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sar, any kids in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to put attendance in the west. but these were the leads within those different tribal areas. not the people per se, who, according to get after participated in counselors under the good afi government.

i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting good effie, do you think his greatest mistake gadhafi was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons. and that's a very interesting i. i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations.

my notion of our responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman, it's and rewind and which is as a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the condemning that it actually i get off his actions and his statement about what he was going to do to population coffee, 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that they're both moscow and beijing. now appear to regret their votes on the security council as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any

global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons. otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i want to go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did

you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity? you must have known about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the mistake, the black flag, which appears in 2012 and then go see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. while we were marshal worried about, i did my grand and trap the trip. it took a long time, but did you fight with any of those people that kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in,

i was appointed just before the doctor was captured until i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, they were about 2025 rotation before that their advisors to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that because it's been like, and the whole need to invasion as basically pulling a coke of the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis, where thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth. and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nation security. got so i have the resolution c,

l 5. lastly voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council voted for went through the stages. and you want to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011, the ambassador until 9 am. he said this worship regime has failed miserably. i get off, we must meet on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous 2nd general of the extent of lee has officially requested the united nations security council to impose a no fly against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community and

all members of the security council, it's not often one can say that about recent big. i'm so big boy, but on the other, on the, on it that's really sad that there wasn't a united front in syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can you understand that? of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely being to

empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about human kind now and i said i'm so i think it is now make stretch . if you call that a threat, i the that, the feelings of the islamic extremist, i extend way back and i do in my chapter on the italo ottoman ball. tell the story of albanians arrived. it was very much a cause, say this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very deep in the psyche of a strategic scenario where we are good not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you

so much for going on. that's it for what are your favorite shows of the season, the team, and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then you can keep in touch my role as social media, if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going on episodes on auto c a r t dot com see very soon ah, with oh, when i was sure seemed wrong when all things just don't hold any world yet to shape out. disdain becomes the advocate and engagement. it

was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. oh, in luis, the counter russian state full narrative. i've stayed on the north lansky in the div. mm hm. and i'm not getting calls, i'll slap a group in the city babbled this bit. okay, so mine is gonna be the one you're calling about with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia today and switch the r t sport next. even our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with the question, did you think it was with

ah, ukraine, rich country that's always been hand in hand with russia? until recently? 2014. a qu divides ukraine and leads to fratricidal war and on a war that continues to this.