7 years so that they say fathers, lamb, the son of murdered libyan leader, mama, gadhafi address, libby and state t. v. wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war. in libya, it appears that these words were to be prophetic, as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and is, britons wrote key joining me now for a special edition of this show from here in london to discuss this is ruby, we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert for coming on. anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011, the invasion. your book starts in 631. wow. libya has a much deeper history than european in bo, the ottoman rule. i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yes, you,

what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from a tv screen in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, weren't commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's africa, riches per capita? country under gadhafi, i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. usually, as you say, illegal migration or some form of violence was that the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. i, it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites that the people are a warm, polite, and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years of the struggle to

establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take place. i, when i was that in 20112012, libya, you describe maybe another time. but i think one thing is clear for me helped and t imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration was started, the 6 day war, one was israel, so born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, while there was always a very large navient community and they are dating back to bremond times and before that of bucks off the g community with a church because it's yes. yes,

that's correct. about are after the, the, the war was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm, we're responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. in 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in as the 1st of all war and will say the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with jewish community as the state of israel to

clack. so as the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and they are, i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya, to decide on whether to put it well to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, that was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911. but they were, there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home not for at all jewish people. and it is correct. you give it a bit harsh to say in the booklet many libyans, you listen to egyptian broadcast, the british were pro israeli. i mean, one way i think britain,

after the war where it was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and they are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job. but there was sent me contract swearing, where really got difficult was where, where the contracts are in the 1960 s. and in particular the tank contract. which question was, i hide with these ready government and will say with the live in government, i'm not ready brought to i had some of the tension of the arab is reading more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community. i mean, um sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships . well, we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the,

the block between the super boss. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries why they were arming each other. but for good reasons. it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with certainly the americans backed off and not sense. and i, b and the neighboring country, egypt. both the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of stirring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bonus to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean. while i made up until the stage when,

when they were replaced by you just saw, i wants the nuclear submarine program at chase. buncombe program diminished very quickly and say really it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's. so everyone forgets the support from the libyan people for britain. but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king who was selling off the oil resource? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't it obvious to british diplomats that a good daffy was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right. that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with

a very difficult desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it in terms of industry or, or academics. so in 1950 britain who was economic the popping up the country helping it to be a fort. now, the model, the written favors and, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or ashatash on green. elizabeth, the 2nd even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie guy, king address, was a corrupt beyond belief with me. i mean that the historians of the time, say, the amount of money amongst his cronies, angered the libyan people, which is why get f one the revolution? yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't,

i wouldn't put the blame on king interests at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country which wanted to become use. it's new found, well that in a dominant way it, i forgot the next train yet and with the r r a plea. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the lay of corruption. it a failure of intel it. i mean, the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f, e from the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the good after you would remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen.

basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the crew? a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary con council to power it. i think i think what we have to remember, rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with milo tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand de it, i'm, it will, i will change have done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education, the libyan people, i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't me for the living people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get effie came to power. as you know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care,

free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. either there weren't, there were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that, a coo, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to, i to king introduce the nomination at, ha, was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not, i provided if you like the fact you as can you dress fell? he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate, add the but his replacement to chance if the key was, was not suitable and, and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete fight it of king interest interest. who did his

best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh, pasted. they've been boring, tribes for decades before anyone from the european side came to the. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictates is in egypt into his ear. in algeria, they indicate is, were all terrible in all those countries. so when you're talking about king edges, his replacement being better. i mean, it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery. and poor life chances for the people in the countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well now that saw the libya that i, i saw i went into the, the,

the museum of the marty's and ms. ross. and i saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good api richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any ratio that has be back in history of his he has denied by it. after his followers and safe, i'll get off his fall as roby is going to become the next president. reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya, an author of liberating libya, british diplomacy more in the desert after this break. ah

ah ah welcome back. i'm familiar with reuben. we locally foreman, come under british forces in the beer, an author liberating to be

a british diplomacy and born the does it. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or off. do you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before? what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. b has been on this program actually. when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuses with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think 11 husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and the period. you said there was some progress and i think one of the big successful programs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which oh, what her from the aquifers and that as it up to the text that was i was progress. i'm and that was very expensive, but at the same time he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. i'm as a result of that, i and the, the war in chat,

which i said to the downing of the 2 fights. i've a lock of the site there was a need to to, to try and rein him back and said the international can, yes, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operational, the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to they might have been of the past both as well. but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i sounds at the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not

proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say, adored her momma gadhafi. yes, they had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of that person being a can you and it was never any clue policy what the ottoman rule it and the 900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army.

i'm ramos africa. you mean it says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial state of united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price, egypt mandate was too high. fast in money and secondly, and territory. they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type is a new c ha that to be gyptian rather that. and then it and that was to hire problems. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help

because economic, they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution distribution between the sar, any kids in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to put attendance in the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get their feet participated in counselors under the good afi government. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that, which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting good effy, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program, that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the,

those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman, it's and rewind and which is as a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution 5 resolutions and 2011. which began with the

condemning that it actually i get off his actions and his statement about what he was going to do to population coffee, 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons, otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i want to go to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about

a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity. you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that terms of as the mistake, the black flag,

which appears after 2012. and then go see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state. i know they did come in later a very much associated with either of those that sympathize with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well we were most worried about i did my grant with mock turbo motor, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before the doctor was captured, killed, i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, they were about 2025 rotation before that. where advises to the revenues and to the diplomatic

leaders who are that because it's been like and the whole new invasion as basically pulling a coke of top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis with thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups, the truth and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nations security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5. lastly, voted for that the resolutions, which were all the security council voted for when to 3 the stages. and you want us to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011,

the ambassador until 9 am output. the said this regime regime has failed miserably. i'm going to be mostly on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the on the most. the 2nd general of the extent of lee has officially requested united nations security council to impose and no flying against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it was the west, i say it was the international community complete. and all members of the security council is not often one can say that about recent big. i'm so big boy, but on the other, on the, on it, that's pretty sad that there wasn't a united front in syria where you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention in syria. but can

you understand that? of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan, whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda or in that area that alone isis, that the entire british project has bizarrely beamed to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about human good. now it says i'm so i think it is not a threat if you call that a threat at the, at the feelings of the islamic extremist. i extend way

back i do in my chapter on the tallow ultimate goal. tell the story of i'm albanian arrived. it was very much a cause, so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very d and the cycles are strategic, perhaps in our brevard wheeler. good. not many books by commanding british officers in the projects like libya that thank you so much. you got me on that set for what are your favorite shows of this season? the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then, you can keep in touch, why are all our social media if it's available in your country and remember, you can continue to watch all going underground episodes on auto c, r t dot com. see very soon ah

ah ah there are 2 kinds of conflicts being fought in ukraine, a western design in controlled propaganda war targeting russia and a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european

continent. and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation. ah, since the break away of the donates people's republic, whew has been ranging and don't boss ukrainian. artillery it's been shelling civilian townsend, mining village is that new york more? very lovely deal with the border blue one with a doable was updated. all of as of all of the video flow balls will give us quality for them. ah, just they should know

that our response will follow at a like speed where we have all the tools which no one else can now postal. what flawed a mirror put and declare as will be the response to any outside interference against russia. so fence of in ukraine also coming up on the program, no gas for a poland on bulgaria until they pay for their imports in roubles. as russia turns off, it's up to you commission chief slums, the decision as on justified on a club with the u. s. continues to send thousands of its weapons to ukraine. some defense contractors are warning up shortages, a hedge as they'd clock up. huge.