e and said she, if i need specific solution with ah, a with i'm action retention, you're watching going on the ground, the team, and i will be back soon with a brand new look, despite nato nation in the you, censorship. but until then, we'll be showing some of your favorite shows a for season so far. i'm after accounting, you're watching going underground. while the world is arguably fixated on, the ukraine crisis today is 11 years to that a say father's lamb,

the son of murdered libyan leader. mama gadhafi address libby and state tv wanting the demonstrations could lead to civil war in libya, it appears that these woods were to be prophetic as africa's riches per capita. country descended into instability and humanitarian crises. however, it is libby as history from foreign rule occupation, and poverty to independence show a way to a peaceful future for the country and his britons ro key. joining me now for a special edition of his show from here in london to discuss this is ruby. we locked the former commander of british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war in the desert. thank you so much. i rupert, for coming on, anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011, the invasion, your bookstore, and 631 b. c. why is that? ha, lydia has a much deeper history than european involvement, or are conquest o the osman rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got

to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from a tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the you of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say, an ego migration or some form of violence, whether that's exported finance or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history, archaeological sites. the people are warm, polite,

and they're welcoming i bought. and unfortunately this, this civil war which has continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hope to take that take place. i, when i was that in 20112012, we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so a born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, while there was always

a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i before that bucks off the g community with a jewish community. yes, yes, that's correct. i thought i, after the, the, the wall was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be government. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course the high speed experiments with the republic in the 1st war and will say the sovereignty can

emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clag. so the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidence, which meant that the british administrators say intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and the are. i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya to decide on whether to put it well to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes. that was a long time before that was even before the italians evaded 1911. but they were, there was a small group of people who are looking at a put possible i'm not for at all jewish people and it is correct. you give it

a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans listen to egyptian rural gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what, i think prison after the war where it was to settings and as it is now trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and there are communities . i'm not, that is not an easy job. but there was certainly contracts where it really got difficult was when, when a contract for moms in the 960 s. and in particular, the tank contract, which christian was i hired with israel government and will say with the live in government, i'm not ready brought to i had some of the tension on the arab is ready more than 1967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international

community. i mean, home sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. what we have to remember, we were in the time cole and i'm certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries why they were arming each other. but for good reasons. it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with certainly the americans backed off and that sense and the, and the neighboring country, egypt. both the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations which attracted many of the

young ladies. as you would imagine, you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan bombers to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean, while only up until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself and once the nuclear submarine program was in chase, the buncombe, i grab diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to break apart and the late sixty's, 80 seconds. so if one forgets the support from the libyan people for britain, but you want the world to remember, why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king? who was the selling of the oil resource? the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right,

that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for centuries as a, as a harsh face to live with a very difficult desert. and it was a very old country with very natural gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or academics. so in the 1950 britain who is economic b popping up the country helping it to move forward. now, the model that i've written favors and, and i said he favored it, and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to at republicanism or ashatash and green. elizabeth, the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks, julie king address was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean, that the historians of the time say, the amount of money amongst his cronies,

angered the libyan people, which is why get off. he won the revolution. yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king interests at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling that dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found. well that in a dominant way it africa matched train yet and with the r r a plea. but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the name of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean the failures of intelligence are always being talked about. in recent years . you'll from temporary rock of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from

the libyan people against king. it drifts having the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping really be and people surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the 2, a $969.00, which brought a revolutionary council to power it? i think, i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that the relationship with king interest began with minor tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand did a little change of done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand is health care education with living people. i mean, king address was a catastrophe, wasn't even the libyan people. i mean,

i'm saying this in the context of when get f game to power as know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds, gadhafi revolution, free medical care, free education, free electricity, and king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. either they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that. a cou, i think one of the very big points is that they wasn't her success. i to i, to king mattress. i've the nomination and i saw was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not, i provided if you like the fact you as can you dress fell, he was too old to continue. and at work was i going to abdicate,

add the but his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable. and, and therefore, there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete fight it of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to pay back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with warring tribes for decades before anyone from the european site can't. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, educational, free electricity, and so on and all these amazing things get off. he brought the libyan people, and yet none of the other u. s. or nature bagley faces in egypt into his ear. in algeria, they indicate his world terrible in all those countries. so when you are talking about king edges, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that any one that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor

life chances for the people in the countries as compared to gadhafi, albeit before the arab spring. well, not that's not the libya, that's why i saw i went into the the, the museum of the martyrs and miss ross and saw the photographs of the hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the gadhafi richie. so any progress that he made for his, his corrupt people, ah, was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been there in history obviously has denied by you. daffy's follow isn't safe, i'll good assays fall as robi is going to become the next president group. we look, i'll stop you there more from the former commander british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in warren, the desert after this break,

with no ship it doubly noon industry to restock and just look up some of novels. only a muscle is running new judy doesn't being in the green shield on a nurse to me as possible. mamma, coquettish sit kitty, somebody tim katherine to his ashley of this one. it was a bit of pieces, goes down to come. you wanted new thesis, but of course jason did, admitted to me, but not, not, but the key for the chino, brian's dinner for phones the ride. some said, yeah, nick avenue rico with granger to have that

with welcome back. i'm still here with rupert, we locked the former commander british forces in the beer in author liberating the be a british diplomacy in war in the desert. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually at when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser with the british prime minister making deals with of royal i think what, when husky back slightly to the 19 eighties and at the period you said there was some progress and i think one of the big are successful programs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which will water from the ac with us and that as it up to the coast i was i was progress. i'm and that was very

expensive, but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 fights. i've a locker b site, there was a need to, to, to try and rein him back and said the international can in your convenience, it was a gadhafi operation. them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to there might have been other past both as well. but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the $990.00 s. i was in any way incorrect to budget what it, i mean, you know that of the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i,

as i say, i'm sounds of the scottish case that was held, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not proven. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe of imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela? i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one could say adored mama gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of a person being a can you are and it was never any clue policy what the ottoman rule it

and the 900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. i'm ramos africa. you mean it says in the sense that we have us bases in britain. britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage of united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration, brought libya independence in 1951. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price, egypt mandate was too high, fast in money. and secondly, in territory, they want to see a large i waste child, which is the as

a new see that to be gyptian rather that. and then it and that was to hire problems. and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economically they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sar, any kids in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to put attendance in the west. but these were the elites within those different tribal areas, love the people, per se, who, according to get their feet participated in counselors under the good afi government. i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d. and the very important issue of that which was to the 4 in nature countries, obviously in london. when tony blair was visiting get effie,

do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program, that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i. i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a fax me sob nuclear power, would it have made a difference? i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations, my notion of a responsibility to protect. we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of sherman,

it's and rewind and which is a, which is why the united nations security council all agree to the resolution, 5 residues and 2011. which began with the condemning that they did actually get off his actions and his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee 70 is obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya, you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons, otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i

think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want my school to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international circles about a non state actors gate nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i don't, i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity? you must've known about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers,

maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that terms of estimates that the black flag, which appears in 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with l. kaiser and those that sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well, we were most worried about on kind of my bread and trap. the trip with dr. belmont, but did you fight with any of those people the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was i came in, i was appointed just before kentucky was captured, killed i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers,

there were about 2025 rotation before that, where advises to the revenues and to the diplomatic leaders who are that because it's been like, and the whole new invasion as basically pulling a coke off the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis. with thousands of what we see drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth. and that when it wasn't an invasion, this was as a, as agreed in the united nation security. got. so i have the resolution c, l 5, you know, actually voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for

went through the stages and you want to remember that the beginning it was the arab league cold on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the, i'm back until 9 am. with the said, this regime regime has failed miserably. i get off the bus late on the 2nd presentation was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent yardley has officially requested united nations security council to impose and notify against any military action against libya. so it wasn't, it wasn't the west, i say it was the international community complete and all members of the security council do not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the on it, that's what he said that it wasn't

a united front and syria. well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly. you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention and syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda are in that area that alone isis. that the entire british project has bizarrely being to empower these is the mis groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about human good. now it says i, so i think it is now make

a threat if you call that a threat or the that the feelings of the islamic extremist. i extend way back and i do in my chapter on b a ball, tell the story of and i'll be arrived. it was very much a cause. so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very in the psyche of a strategic center roadway. oh, good. not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like libya that thank you so much going on. that's it for what are your favorite shows of the season? the theme and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch my role as social media, if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the one episodes on auto c, a r t dot com,

see very soon ah, there are 2 kinds of conflicts being part in ukraine, a western design in controlled propaganda war targeting russia and a russian military campaign that is changing the security dynamics of the european continent. and western propaganda is hell bent on escalation. aah, ukraine. a big and rich country that's always been hand in hand with russia. until recently. 2014,

a qu divides ukraine and leads to fratricidal war and on a war that continues to this on the edge of a large field near lo, ganske, the mass grave. local say that the people buried here are mostly civilians who are allegedly killed by ukrainian paramilitary groups in the summer of 2014. does this a mr. alcorda? what did of stop? don't be just that means it would be the when the british scuttle, car was stolen, crane said things of a sudden form you not to annasae. rocca leads a special committee for collecting evidence of the ukrainian government alleged walker.