rupert, for the coming on, anyone would think a senior british commander would have written the book just about the 2011 invasion . now your book starts in 631 b. c. why is that? why libya has a much cheaper history than european involvement, or are conquest oh, the ottoman rule. and i felt i had to justice to the full history before i got to the british involvement, which starts a little bit closer to hype. yeah, i mean, i sort of got to ask you, what do you think of it now? when obviously it disappeared from our tv screens apart from the people drowning in the mediterranean, thousands of them since the evasion, the, you, you, of course, were commander there in libya. what, what's your view of the seeming chaos in, as i say, what was one's african riches per capita? country under gadhafi. i think it's really sad that libya only comes into the news for bad reasons. i usually, as you say,

illegal migration or some form of violence was that exported violence or whether it's the civil war in the country, which makes it really hard for people to visit. but the truth is that libya is a fantastic country. i. it's got stunning beaches. it's got a most wonderful history archaeological sites. the people are a warm, polite, and they're welcoming box. and unfortunately this, this civil war which is continued for the last 10 years. and the struggle to establish a government which is united has prevented the progress that we hoped would take that take place. i, when i was that had 201182012. we're gonna have to talk about the ancient libya. you describe maybe another time, but i think one thing that's clear from your book is how britain helped anti imperialism in the, in libya, which is kind of against many global south narratives. but you say in the book that

everything changed when it came to the british libyan relationship. when the newly created israel from bell for declaration started the 6 day war, one was israel. so a born in destroying relations between britain and libya before they warmed up. again, obviously under tony blair, well, there was always a very large navient community and dating back to bremond times and i before that bucks off the g. a community with a church. believe it? yes. yes, that's correct. i thought i, after the, the, the wall was the shape of libya big began to be mapped out by the allied forces that there was a decision to make about how they would be governed. and the british who were there as a result of defeating the germans and the italians

i'm were responsible for the administration immediately afterwards. and 943 had a difficult task of judging what was best for libya. and of course there had been experiments with the republic in as a 1st floor and also the sovereignty can emmert. and that was the one the person favorite. but in terms of the relationship with the jewish community, as the state of israel was to clad so as the tension increased and, and as i described in the book, there were incidents which meant that the british administrators say at intervene a lease, a troubles between the church community and they are, i mean, you say that the, there was actually, if the team deployed to libya,

to decide on whether to put it love to create israel in libya rather than in palestine. yes, i was a long time before that was even before the italians invaded 1911, but there was a small group of people who are looking at a possible home not for both jewish people. and it is correct. you give it a bit harsh to say in the book that many libyans are listened to egyptian rural gus, the british were pro israeli. i mean, what, what i think freshman after the war way was to settings and as it is now, trying to find a balance between supporting both the and the jewish community and they are communities. i'm not, that is not an easy job, but there was certainly contracts where it, where it really got difficult was where, where their contracts are in the 960 s. and in particular the tank contract,

which christian was. i hired with these ready government and will say with the libyan government, i'm not ready wrote to i had some of the tension of the arab is ready more 967, which i see is very much of a watershed in terms of the whole relationship between libya and the international community, i mean, i am sales were really such an important element in these geopolitical relationships. well, we have to remember, we were in the time co and, and certainly in terms of the, the, the, the, the block between the supervisor. and there was a relationship with that proxy countries where they were arming at each other. but for good reasons, it was felt that britian should take the lead in the relationship with, with libya,

satiny americans backed off and not sense. and i, the, and the neighboring country, egypt are both the soviet union, the russians and on the americans were trying to befriend nasa who was very influential in terms of staring up the arab nations, which attracted many of the young ladies as you would imagine. and you actually mentioned that it was harold wilson who did reduce numbers, but libya was very important for britain's nuclear weapon carrying vulcan moments to fly from fright, cypress to the indian ocean while only until the stage when, when they were replaced by yourself. and once the nuclear submarine program was in chase, the buncombe program diminished very quickly and say really, it didn't play to break apart and the night 60 seconds. so if we don't forget the

support from the libyan people for britain, but you want the world to remember. and why did britain continue to support king address a corrupt king? who was the selling of the oil resource to the new d discovered oil resources. it wasn't obvious to british diplomats that the gadhafi was going to gain the support of the people when you're absolutely right, that oil changed everything up until that point. and libya was known as it was for sanchez as a, as a harsh face to live with a very just desert. and it was a very poor country with very little gang for it. it sounds of industry or, or i think it makes. so in the 1950 britain who is economic the popping up the country it helping it to move forward. now, the model books written favors, and i said he favored it,

and those days is the constitutional monarchy type of model, which we have here, which is the alternative to republicanism or a great elizabeth. the 2nd, even after what we've been hearing in recent weeks jolie guy interest was a corrupt beyond belief, was me, i mean, this during the time say the amount of money amongst his cronies, anger the libyan people, which is why get f one the revolution? yes, i think i think a corruption has remained a problem in libya throughout its history. i wouldn't, i wouldn't put the blame on king address at all. i thought he was a pious from reading about it. and in many ways, in many ways not suited to ruling a dynamic, energetic country, which wanted to become use. it's new found well in a dominant way. it africa,

the mesh train yet. i'm with the ira. ira lee, but now i wouldn't, i wouldn't put all the lay of corruption. it's a failure of intel it, i mean the failures of intelligence are always being talked about in recent years. you'll remember iraq, of course, a failure of british intelligence not to understand the support for good f e from the libyan people against king. it drifts, serving the idea that the good after you would to remember britain's role in helping the libyan people. surely he would forget that in the face of suddenly all the oil revenue being stolen. basically, what if we're talking about the causes of the true, a $969.00, which brought a revolution a con council to power it? i think, i think what we have to remember rather than the failings of teenagers who had done a good job for, for many, many years. remembering that relationship with king interest began with minor

tolbert 960. i say he had, he had overseen a long period as, as a grand de it a little change of done a good job. i mean, you know, if you consider how poor the, or any type of living stand as health care education with living people, i mean king address was a catastrophe, wasn't for the libyan people. i mean, i'm saying this in the context of when get after game to power. as we know, the statistics seem amazing. i mean literacy from 25 to 87 percent 99.9 percent literacy for 50 to 24 year olds. get off the revolution free medical care, free education, free electricity. i mean king interest didn't bring any of these things to the libyan people. i did, they weren't, they were programs, but they were, they weren't, i would say the progress wasn't as a need yet, as i could talk about, just going back to the causes of that. a cou, i think one of the very big points is that there wasn't a success i to,

to king address the nomination. pat. huh. was, was not deemed suitable by the libyan people. i'm not provided. if you like, the fact you as can you dress fell. he was too old to continue at work was i going to abdicate add the put his replacement in terms of the key was, was not suitable and, and therefore there was the vacuum and that's, that's why he came to buy. i wasn't, i don't believe it was the complete fight it of king interest interest. who did his best in difficult circumstances. what do i have to go back to what i said originally, which is that this was a harsh place to live with boring tribes for decades before anyone from the european side came to me. but why do you think it is in that region that gadhafi managed to get free medical care, education, free electricity,

and so on and all these amazing things get actually brought to the libyan people. and yet none of the other u. s. or nato back dictators in egypt into his ear. in algeria, the indicators were all terrible in all those countries. so when you are talking about king andrew's, his replacement being better, i mean, it's clear that anyone, that nato backs in that region provides misery and poor life chances for the people in those countries as compared to gadhafi all be before the arab spring. well, not that's not the libya that i i saw i went into the, the, the museum of the marches and ms. ross and all the photographs are see hundreds of libyans who were killed or disappeared under the good api richie. so any progress that he made for is his corrupt people, ah,

was as much corrupt as, as the previous regime, or any regime that has been in history of his he has denied by get after his followers in favor gadhafi scholars, robi, is going to become the next president, reuben, we look, i'll stop you there. more from the former commander british forces in libya and author of liberating libya, british diplomacy in war. the desert after this break ah, ah, ah, ah, ah ah, ah

l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to rate trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect his own existence with oh, sure seemed wrong when i just don't know

if he has to fill out this thing because the advocate an engagement, it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds of warren, we choose to look for common ground. ah, welcome back. i'm celia with ruth at we locally foreign gl under british forces in the beer, an author liberating the be a british diplomacy in warren, the does it. what did you feel then? i don't know whether you learned about the history of libby or after you commanded the british forces or you knew about them before. what did you feel about the deal in the desert? lord brown of b. p. has been on this program actually when you saw the pictures of, as you call him this torturer in the human rights abuser with the british prime minister making deals with of royal. so i think 11 house go back slightly to the

980 s and the period. you said there was some progress. and i think one of the big, successful paragraphs that gadhafi rotate was the great mind bait river which oh, water from the aquifers. and that as it up to the coast, i'm so that was, i was progress. i'm and i not was very expensive. but at the same time, he was sponsoring terrorism around around the world. and as a result of that, i and the, the war in shot which led to the downing of the 2 flights. i validate a flight, there was a need to at, to time, rein him back and said international content, you're convinced it was a gadhafi operation. them the lockerbie atrocity, the worst terrorist atrocity in this country. i think on record i have no reason to

they might have been of the past vote as well. but i have no reason to believe that the, the criminal case which was conducted at the end of the 1990 s i was in any way incorrect to budget. what did i mean? you know that of the families of the bereaved a doubt, the validity of that case. i'm sure you're aware of i, as i say, i serves as the scottish case that was held i, which i found out one individual guilty and another one not prove i. i think that was correct. do you think that the history that you describe over imperialism in libya, british italian, german, would make one understand why the entire global south supported gadhafi? why good? that he supported revolutionary movements as you call them, terrorists, against imperialism. and why nelson mandela?

i think one of his 1st visits when he was freed, was to see gadhafi mandela. i think one good fe, adored mamma gadhafi. yes, i had a good relationship, but i have to correct you on the issue of present being a colonial power. and it was never any colonial power where the ottoman rule and the 1900 century. and then the italian colonial rule between 19121943 when britain defeated the italian army. after that. i'm ramos africa. you mean i says in the sense that we have u. s. bases in britain, britain had military bases in libya. britain isn't a colonial stage with united states, is that what you mean? because obviously the military base is in libya, not voted for by the libyan people. say off to the un administration,

brought libya independence at $951.00. libya wished to begin by having a partnership with egypt, but the price, egypt mandate was too high fast in money. and secondly, in territory. they wanted the large oasis jug, which is the type as a new c, b j rather that than it. and that was to hire products, and therefore the libyans asked chris to help because economic, they, what i mean that i see. and when you mean the libyans, you mean the elite class of libyan, i'm in the british bag, which was nice. the libyan government was drawn from across the country. it was an equal distribution between the sirens in the east because on in the south and the trip all the time to take it to the west. but these were the leads within those

different tribal areas. well, the people, per se, who, according to get after participated in counselors under the good afi government, i'm also going to ask you a very short paragraph in the book where you mention about w m d, in the very important issue of that which was to the 4 in nature countries obviously in london, when tony blair was visiting good effie, do you think his greatest mistake if he was removing his weapons of mass destruction program that he would still be there if he had nuclear weapons? and that's a very interesting question. i i know that the, those who went when he gave up his weapons of mass destruction. everyone was very surprised how far his program i got. and i think that if he remains a factory sob, nuclear power, would it have made a difference?

i think not. i think by that stage in 2011, after the international community had supported completely the united nations. my notion of our responsibility to protect, we were in a different year. we were no longer in the era of revenue and rewind, and which is a, which is why the united nations security council. all a great to the resolution, 5 residues and 2011, which began with the condemning that they did actually, i get off his actions. and i, his statement about what he was going to do to population and coffee, 72, obviously more controversial, arguably as seen by some powers. and i'm sure you know that both moscow and beijing now appear to regret their votes on the security council. as regards libya,

you thing on the ground when you are with your british soldiers. they understood that there was a possibility that anything they did in their support of rebels in effect makes any global south leader around the world think we need nuclear weapons, otherwise they'll be british troops coming along to fight against the government. i think the whole nuclear weapon debates and i, i want my school to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be a state. there's a great mari international cycles about a non state actors gaining big nuclear weapons. and i know that moscow and china would be very worried about that sort of thing. so i think i don't think the, the, the, this notion of the nuclear club, meaning that an individual state would have an international response if

it conducted genocide within its boundaries. so i didn't, i didn't, i didn't see them. well, so this program isn't telling people to get nuclear weapons. obviously. what did you feel when you 1st heard about the manchester arena, area and the grand atrocity. you also know about the libyan fighting group. maybe some of your soldiers, maybe you met some of the islamists that were fighting with you when again there's, there's a, there's a bit of a confusion that has the most, the black flag, which appears after 2012 in and see what wasn't necessarily the islamic state, i know they did come in later, but they were very much associated with either of those that sympathized with the atrocities in new york and washington 911. well we were marshall worried about i

did my bread and trap the trip with mock turbo motor. but did you fight with any of those people, the kind of people that might sympathize with the 911 atrocity now i was, i came in, i was appointed just before kentucky, was captured, to killed. i came in at the end of that the, the soldiers, the british soldiers, there were about 2025 rotation before that where advisors to the revenue and to the diplomatic leaders who are that because it's, we like and the whole major invasion as basically pulling a coke of the top of africa in terms of the refugee crisis, with thousands of movies he drowned in the mediterranean, but also as encouraging isis, al qaeda, the myriad other groups and the truth. and that when it wasn't an invasion,

this was as a, as agreed in the united nations security got. so i have the resolution c, l 5 unanimously voted for that the, the resolutions which were all the security council. thank you for went through the stages and you one has to remember that the beginning it was the arab league who called on the united nations to take action on the 22nd of february, 2011. the until 9 am would be said this regime regime has failed miserably. gadhafi must meet on the 2nd resolution was immediately after the ominous sexual general of the extent yardley has officially requested, the united nations security council to impose a no fly against any military action against libya. so it wasn't,

it wasn't the west. i say it was the international community complete and all members of the security council did not often one can say that about recent big, i'm sorry, big boy, but on the other, on the on it, that's what he said that it wasn't a united front and syria well, you mentioned that you say that you wanted a war on syria more explicitly, you lament the fact you say it's dire. the impact of the libyan arguable catastrophe on humanitarian intervention and syria. but can you understand that, of course, when it comes to islam is terrorism. a lot of people around the world feel that whether it's yugoslavia which empower is the missed to train them to go to afghanistan. whether it be iraq, whether it be that libya, whether it be syria, because there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that british and american involvement with groups allied to al qaeda or in that area that alone isis. that

the entire british project as bizarrely being to empower these islamist groups bent on the destruction of all that is human and all that is good about good. now i think you said i, so i think it's not make a threat if you call that a threat or the that the feelings of the islamic extremist. i extend way back and i do in my chapter on b, a bull tell the story of i'm, i'll be arrived. it was very much about it's nomic cause so this has been around for a very long time. we're talking about issues which are very in the psyche of a strategic absent. all right, we're good,

we're good. not many books by commanding british offices in the projects like to be a thank you so much you're going on. that's it for what are your favorite shows of the season, the team, and i will be back soon with a brand new look. but until then you can keep in touch viral on social media if it's available in your country. and remember, you can continue to watch all going on the ground episodes on auto c, a r t dot com. see very soon for a doubles are going to put forward talking with the school. i hope that i see a

week with a choice issue. somebody over there, both of those with talk with you a and i do so as you know that way, if you don't mind the

good news. they should know that responsible follow at lightning speed. with that, we have all the tools which no one else can now post on. this is what let me put in, declares will be moscow's response to any outside interference against it's offensive in ukraine view and predicts the worst hunger crisis in the decades as regions are cut off from much of their grain supplies due to the war in ukraine. and they wake up call for european governments to consider crisis elsewhere in the world. as india, as a top diplomat refuses to take a hard stand against the war and ukraine and calls on western nations to pay more attention to the problems in asia, poland refusing to pay.