ah ah ah, with me until the 20 years ago press briefing about the absence of weapons of mass destruction in iraq. you secretary of defense, donald rumsfeld famously honored keith quote about no one knows an unknown unknowns. and he's point was essentially that we do credit countries were morally justified about assuming the worst about that adversaries acting accordingly. use

this logic still at play in need of confrontation with russia over ukraine. well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by that have nella director of the department of geopolitics and international relations at medical university in professor it's good to see you. thank you very much for your time. thank you. now, you know, i'm a big fan of both. laura and me, so agenda i really get a chance to we with into the conversation. even though i think you would agree with me about modern day and your politics is all about me making. but with one of your recent articles, you gave me a wonderful opportunity of doing that because you compare this whole crisis in your cranes you, they are a tale. the pied piper. can you elaborate on that? the look, you know, i'd like to point out that a lot of the policy towards

a president wooten and russia seems to be driven by emotion. now, i've been here before in libya, for example, there was a complete demonization of work. there was a demo vision of savannah saying, and there, there is now a demonization of russia, as of people, and brand brand, the brand, the president of russia. now, i've studied doesn't get to some guy study. this is moves. i also studied the fact that he became more and more disillusion with the west. and it was no surprise to me because we're tracked by my writing. your find out that i was very clear that germany, the franco german alliance will never allow russia to be a part of europe. never. because what happens when you have russia, these 2 argues out there, they're position. so there's never going to happen. so now we find the same play of

the motion and what i'm seeing is present zones give wants this. he wants that he wants this. basically, he wants to punish russia. i've seen the people of iraq, so i've seen other supper. so in my view, look, differences, russia is in the and if not, the form was the 2nd form was nuclear. it's half of europe is harper isha. you don't know. we're just like that. by thinking it morse a full, it's a one to be concrete, but i'm still with my humble plea of tying in the fairy tale that you mentioned in one of your articles. and that fairy tale in that article around you compare ukraine. you that piper who was luring the children all homes and over the cliff to that desks is essentially and you suggest that it is

ukraine that is doing that's wrong with one thing that i don't understand. and this analogy is the ukrainian children who are being called on to that. so why do you think the, the ukrainian leadership would be interested in doing that? well, i'd like to say that i had in mind the people following the piper of here. i mean, president zelinski, i admire the seriousness. i admired his courage, but the reality is, but he is in my, in my view, in my calculations. and frankly, i always assume that prison warden is what i call a grand master your politics. and if you're a grand master geopolitics, the kind of news that zelinski is making major, who will lead to more and more rational goals. and finally,

this will escalate into the new gear. but as you're going to see tactical nuclear weapons used in my calculation, i put this on record some, several weeks ago. more than a month ago. it could be like with or estonia, it could be. and so the baltic states, essentially challenging nato to come into the field with a nuclear arms or a nuclear super bow bridges. bridges declare that nothing is north of park but is that i was talking about. i was talking about the countries of neutral following a prism zelinski into the cliff. he's only worse. and what's the, what could possibly justify that? because if you look at the brain from a traditional strategic perspective, guarantees geographic location. it could have had been best of both worlds. it could be milking both russia and the last 4 sources. what is you can gain from

calling everyone of a nuclear clear? the fact of the matter is green is essentially, if you're talking of a land war, you, green and bellows are essential to the security of russia, or the security of the countries are of the rest of europe. in case russia wants to launch a war against them, it is frandisco increase from these a jo, jo, graphic locations, but shuttle or so the geographic war on the surface armies can come through. and this is the point. so one can understand president quoted about billers above ukraine and also about central leisure. because in central asia, i happen to believe i happen to go to live. but it's not just, you know, it's not just some of a known or people,

but even the china. but love an interest in this blazing russia from central asia in this blazing india from central asia. i didn't do anything to prevent this attempt of color with what prison warden acted. he acted and bellows yet in kazakhstan. why? because central asia is also a key element, it's a key element in our security and what's your security? so he's off to what's happening in metal, the expansion of nato, saying thus far and no further present now. but i think it's important to our highlight that while russia, as you said it in many of its neighboring countries to provide security, it's not trying to question the sovereignty of those countries. and till this day, i haven't heard officials in russia questioning whether ukraine should remain sober and say, everything they talk about is maintaining such a post. you're such a military poster that would not be threatening to russia other than that. those

people ask me to pursue their own said the way they see, well, you're 50, right? and i can say that i have not said that that prison booting and, and the russian government is imposing any of it. so, i mean, it's views whether it is in central asia or not. so what is your greatest concern? i had hopes that present zalinski when he came to power would understand the logic that was there in big toyota. which in my view, big day article which and zelinski, are you good in patriots, of young gorge, understood that you need stable relations with russia for a stable. you great. now unfortunately, if you regard russia as an enemy for the next 100 years, then obviously you need to your grade, which is completely the nato. and that is exactly where their actions are taking

this. and again, if i miss you, so this is the point i really did not expect prison zelinski to really make this kind of mistake in going by federal morris and go and various others, especially because his jewish, the jewish community. and i've said this multiple times, i mean there, the last tribal, they look community that an extremely admirable community. i don't expected this from him, but he will pose you about all these gay and zealots who want to believe that you koreans are not rushing, but russians are somehow different going ukrainians and they go russians, for example, every day, some of them it's irrelevant who they believe themselves to be, they call themselves allianz, whatever is just the point, is that they should not be prostituting that land to present a sizable as read to you and they're in big neighbor. now,

i heard you saying another in this conflict in ukraine began because russia understood that america never cease to target russia as an enemy. why do you think that is because having an enemy is an expensive undertaking, i mean, especially an enemy of the size and character of russia. is there any benefit to the united states as a country, perhaps, to the american leads to have russia as others are because the russians and i, you know, lived in this country for many years, a full it's policy. russia has no interest in seeing america, and then i mean, we are interested in cooperating with them just as he said in his interested to cooperating with the rest of the world. why do you think the american society invested in seeing us as a bad guy or being on bad terms with well look up. the fact is that there is a very strong european history in american security and foreign policy. the good

news is that the pentagon, for example, the department of test, i'm sure they can be very pleased about the, about a lot of the policies of the state department, which is much more european this. and today, the white house, which is extremely european, this up in a way that trump was not done was a disaster in other ways. but he was not a disaster in the sense of being a european, who believes that the naval of the world is still europe, but is 50 years behind the times. and what we're seeing in some european countries regarding the well borders. johnson's now in india. i'm sure he's going to give a lot of a professor johnson will give a lot of lectures on your grades were bonus, doesn't realize that it's not a 100 years ago. and we're not going to listen to these lectures. we're going to do what's good for our own country. so the problem is, this european is group. they don't regard russia somehow as european. now there are people in russia, st. peter's good, but school, which i've talked about,

which regards themselves, are really european. but i'm sorry, you are not european. in my view, you are russian, which is are you region, you're the only really your asian country and the europeans. you got them to you as being asia. and the americans were pro european or who are completely, you know, who basically working in the european interest as defined by european lead, a european leaders. they forget that the omission is now in the indoor pacific and it needs to change. but the good news is, a lot of people in washington in paris in london are in bullying are accepting this. so i think this kind of a very harmful policy for the western world will in my view. but in years, let's take a short break and we will return to the discussion after a few moments. ah

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hm. mm. welcome back to well, the for it with my have to know that director of the department of geopolitics and international relations at medical university in india, professor before the break, we were talking about various perceptions of this conflict. and before we started, i, i mentioned this quote by donald rumsfeld about, no, no, no, i'm no known and unknown unknowns. and i wonder if you see any of those unknown unknowns already. and then mary can policy, this ripple effect that comes back to her. the, you know, the author of the sanctions more than the actual target will look up any,

any kind of policy driven by a motion. i mean, you may think that, you know, i don't know the point is not the accumulation of the job. the point is what you understand from the data. you know, there's something called net assessment. there's something called a 2nd opinion. i mean, in my university, our department, we are completely outside to the outside government. and in that sense, we provide, in a sense, a 2nd opinion, whether people like it or not, or not too many things going on. so as far as the, you know, this is concerned, navea work, for example, macro. we're talking of, i was wanting a euro from bloody will start to barriers. well, the reality is what the really looking for is another up if i was a. so i'm under the borders jensen or on the show and they're waiting for that and they're expected. but this particular conflict would lead to

a change in regime and do one more, boris yeltsin coming up. that's what they're looking for. in our case, i can tell you, we are very clear that the security of the all asia a yes by north america, but asian countries. and we believe north america is a corporate continental country. like russia is a bike, mental country. no, america is south american. it's asian, it's african, it's also european. and as well, same readers book, my wife and i have been there. we had a lovely reason. we're not saying i'm not knocking, knocking modern europeans. they are very modern, very, and they understand the, well, i'm only talking of people who are living in the bus because they still remember too much of the school textbooks, which in my view, celebrate all of your god as one great poem,

a do wonderful story of the whole of mine, and you actually need here a question because, you know, when people take decisions concerning whole countries or the whole world. one who this, you know, that they're not taking those decisions on the whim and united states as well as western europe. have some of the highs seen tank and numbers per capita. i mean, they're more things times the universities, perhaps in america. and yet the quality of teaching decisions that success if an american mission have taken over the last 20 years. it, you know, it's, it's very questionable. is it insurance is a lack of strategic logic, or is it something that we hear in most simply cannot understand? because you mentioned the conflicts in syria in libya, before you mentioned their policies in south asia. and it's hard to understand what

the leader is in washington are trying to, to actually pursue the look is what i'm saying. you have all of data and then you come to different conclusions. i'm sure the data indicated that russia was looking at capturing gear. i don't believe that western doc, you got to look capital. i'm not entirely sure the russian bach. i think the russians are one line. i think one of you, frankly, will now effectively be separated and the balance would be demilitarized and geared of elements who are russo volvic? you know, i think the wind is to resume. but now you're talking to a person who repeatedly mr. washington to warn about the taliban hosting a lot of nasty people. right to the clinton period and about a month and a half before $911.00. and frankly, i don't say we will. i mean, i was,

i was, i mean, certainly nobody took us. it took me seriously that this is going to happen. oh, you know, we're not going to somebody not that about, well, you know, you're fine. you know, we want to go to it, then it will be a disaster. if you allow control, i was happy with the not saddam was in that to go, but then you appoint an american administrator and all over the place in american flags. the rockies are very broad people. livia gadhafi was frankly, oh, very nasty man in this point. but the same time be up in my case. i want that after him. you love a deluge of refugees coming to europe, coming to europe from syria. and again in sylvia, i've been to sit here with this problem was going on. let me push on ourselves again, girlfriend of india, but we'll continue to recognise bush out because we believe many of the people supported by the united states and by the rest of nato,

were people who were one day, i've seen that the same people who are oh, guys are nice this up in a couple of weeks, they go back and we go through to get replenished, get money. and then after a few weeks, this look back into being either nicest. all this has been happening. so this is not the 1st time that nato is making a horrible mistake. now, speaking about consequences of those decisions. i think one of the things that separates these conflicts from only others is that american population at home can already in the pinch of sanctions because price isn't going on. there is an interest in fuel prices. there are some of the price increases. do you think the american copy was the american democracy? in this case, because people are affected, the thing, it can be policy on the white house,

or is it still the same old game that you know, a few people who know nothing but pretend that they know everything. well, i continue making decisions not only for the american people, but for the rest of the world as well as news scene sanctions being implemented on a country at such rocket speed. you know, other, i go your, what are the sanctions in advance? and then you're going to do that all this plan. i don't believe that or you're just implementing sanction of the sanction thinking the next installment will finish your prison and will make the russian people rushed to the streets. i'll be moving . you know, i think that 2nd is more likely, but the fact is, is having an impact goal. and it's having a big impact on europe and united states. my own calculation and guesses within

about 16 to 7 weeks was there is going to be an enormous blow back from this war. and people are going to identify the sanctions as being responsible . and frankly, i don't think they care where you great is whether it's with china or with russia or with all of the india, but they do care about their daily lives. so most 15 or 16 weeks before this immense blowback, and it's already happening on a large scale, but it's just not being reported. i'm surprised that my friends in all these big papers. they seem to a suspended believe and they seem to be accepting whatever not, not the bible, but the people who are giving the, i mean, let's say the associates a white paper. they've read made, you need to feel united states united states and they don't treat their media. and i'm starting to see my friends in the media have completely suspended. believe in

the reporting. let's talk about china because you mentioned in the, one of the article that the chinese are one of the biggest is from the russian ukrainian conflict. why do you think that is? well, the reality is that if this conflict intensifies and if there is a kind of conflict nuclear or non nuclear, between the 2 and russia for the next generation, the additional of the united states, the europeans, europe in the segment. and the european countries will be on russia, and they will dig their, i all china. now, the reality is, we need the united states in asia. we need the europeans in asia because we need to have a free, open and intrusive in the pacific. and whoever country that is it publicly claiming 90 percent of the of the south china sea for example. and this is, i mean,

completely astonishing that they're claiming this. now, in our case, for example, for the 1st time since 1980 s all across, not just india, but i break up latin america. you are seeing a dialogue with was the rest, which again is not true because western people are not what their leaders are. but now in india, for example, i mean, you know, our prime minister is very focused on media. you have a play, you have a president who's, you know, he does things that you like or don't. or we don't like. he's very focused on what he believes in russian interest, and we and the prime minister look what is called that he was talk gen, i got it. he's also develop, go to go to your java war. and there is only the central asia. it's also russia because i think that prime minister already predicted this kind of

a breakdown of relations between russia and the west. and i want to ask a simple question, bureau, what country, when europeans are spending more than we spend in, in the, in a few, in an hour or 2 hours to buy and guess, why do you want to give country to denied? so, russian, oil and gas, why do you want us to look to be even here? well, perhaps a, well, it's just my opinion, but can i ask you here? because we are running out of time. you said we need europe and america in asia to, you know, solve our various security challenges and having seen what the american contribution to the european security has been. i mean, they literally brought russia and europe on the brink of a nuclear conflict. i mean, there is a hot conflict now raising in the middle of europe. do you really think that we

need that kind of expertise to help solve in difficulties, let's say with china or pakistan? can't we do it originally in a matter that would try to satisfy all parties? do you really believe that the americans or the repeal for that matter, have the best interest of asian minds when they try to moderate various security issues? look, you know, you'd be surprised at the number of indian americans or ethnic indians or working in the high tech industries united states. it's a very, very large number. the last i checked about 1300000 is probably much more about just indians. and we have about suit nearly 6000000 ethnic indians were in the united states. the european union is a very short sighted. they don't mind somebody else being settling in in europe and

didn't put it under the social facilities, was, frankly, was productivity. really much less than a software programmer or an engineer or a doctor from jen. i either about like now but they're being short sighted again, i'm not going to call them races. they're being short sighted. but, you know, i do want to say on technology, for example, there's only a link between india and united states is not only made by go, it's a link made by luella when i went to the lower levels by citizens, by company, by dick dick companies. now for example, and eleanor, so my university, so dental dealer is the chief of microsoft. you have another indian in, i mean both these people living in the passport holders. i mean, you know, you have some joy in google and they just one of thousands and thousands of indians

in the top position. so we haven't organically already and we need that organically . secondly, we are united in wanting us, we open the inclusive in the pacific. you know, wanted in dog pacific, in which one country will dictate who can come in and who cannot come in, especially a country that is in rated us multiple times and cost us last during are going to the soldiers last year. ok, well we have to leave it there even though there any more questions to be asked. but thank you very much for now for sharing your insights. thank you. and i'd like to say i'm with russia and mary say on the few occasions, my wife and i have been in russia really totally enjoyed all. god bless you and god bless their voice. yeah, yeah. i totally fully enjoy your praying for the world and for

a little piece or thank you for watching you hope to see you again next week on the well, the parts are with western media and politicians are obsessed with the idea of ukraine winning say otherwise than you are maligned, accused of treason can even canceled grain most when troll is actually about something completely different that has everything to do with weakening russia.