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ah, hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, western media and politicians are obsessed with the idea of ukraine winning say otherwise than you are maligned, accused of treason, and even cancelled. the ukraine must win trope is actually about something completely different. that has everything to do with weakening russia. ah, i cross sucking who's winning? i'm joined by my guess. martin j america. he is an award winning journalist and commentator. and in sydney we cross joe loria, he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com. hi tony. cross how close, and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. i always appreciate a job. let me go to you 1st and sidney here. why is a western median politicians obsessed with this job? ukraine is winning. ukraine will win. um,

without any kind of serious analysis of the battlefield. now we could, we could relegate that to experts on the military. but for the last 30 years, western military experts have gotten everything wrong. so i think we're losing on all county or go ahead joe of august, the corporate media in the west has joined the campaign. the government's campaign, which is bertram, clearly an american proxy war against russia. this is evident from the very start on february 24th. the day russia entered ukraine, joe biden gave a press conference and he was asked, what do you think? why do you think the sanctions are going to work now when they didn't prevent the invasion? he said the sanctions were never meant to print, prevent the invasion. they were meant to tell the russian people what he's done and, and to make them feel the pain. that's what this is all about. and then of course, in poland, he came out right out and said it, it's about regime change in russia. this goes way back to 1949 when the c i a took nicole 111 of the leaders of vendors fascist, grew back to new york and used him for sabotage against the soviet union ukraine,

right for the ar and revolution. and certainly the 2014 qu, so the media is only given the ukrainian side of the story. ukrainian source is a washington it leaving out huge chunks of this story, particularly that 2014 us back. who in care of the civil war and ambassador role of neo nazis, what the mini cooper was about the nato, a treaty draft trees, russia put forward in december. all that has gone. you can't even discuss what the causes of this war are, which would include all the things i just mentioned. you are dan band as we were from paypal because of false information. you are traded, branded as you said, a traitor or a potent puppet, et cetera. just for trying to write the facts of the war without taking either side, even just doing that. so you were left with the, a cartoon figure of russian russia just being a monster that wanted for no reason whatsoever to attack this democratic country. and of course, as we're going to talk, i think later about so and sky, it's hardly

a democracy. ukraine, my laurel, it's the same question to you because i'm jo is actually put forth my thesis here is that all this can happen and it can happen quite swimmingly when there's no context whatsoever. i talked to p well privately, and i say well, you know, we have to go back to 2014 the mens records and all that. and almost always is that what are you talking about? there is no context in talking about what's going on in ukraine and this is intentional. go ahead, martin. it's, it's a noun phrase on. unfortunately, i'm new at noon. some details on relevant facts which take more than 30 seconds approach of seem to have been just whitewashed out of the entire media equation. let me look at your crane. i see to answer your initial question. you know, people like, or as johnson or i don't have invested so much in ukraine, you know, going back to 2014. i think anybody knows anything about the history of the country, joe code. it's a us but who's even if you were to be kind you certainly there are certainly

evidence of us meddling to install the british us and i think it, these leaders, these governments can't lose, they can't turn round to their electric. now, during price high showing energy costs going up drain lation soaring and people not be able to deal with new taxes being in person, them and say, hey, we've learned all this money and we might have got it wrong. they just don't to medical and made. it doesn't do medical lead us correct mistakes in the times. newspaper this week, printed a very impressive article about the ghost pilots, ukraine. naming him, you know, and apparently the training commanders facebook page just seem to escape detention of that unless you're going to, the commander said, look, the story is nonsense. you know, it's a missed, it's been, it's been made. it's like, well it's like the snake island may ok,

which still is making the rock. it still makes the rounds amazing. ok, joe. i mean, we got to tell you, we, we know that about the, the, the politicians in the west are being disingenuous because nobody in the west is talking about a c hire ah, how to end this conflict as method just to reverse. they want to fuel it on, i mean, you know, there's a, you have a milly, the john chief of staff on this could happen for years. and then you have a defense contractor saying, well, you know, we, we know what will we're here to serve. we're here to serve the defense department. i mean, you know, the, the powers that be seem to be quite gleeful except for they don't seem to care much about the ukrainian people. but if you look at all of these speeches, the crating people don't really make the cut. go ahead, joe. now that they don't give a damn about the training people, they don't do much damn about the american people. this is a proxy war to weaken and destabilize russia and to overthrow the regime. so they think by sanctions and by bleeding,

russia militarily on the ground and threw in information warfare and without. 2 russia's entry into the civil war and ukraine, if at the end of february u. s. couldn't launch this economic information, and on the ground insurgency, or flooding the country, what weapons tried to bleed russia much the same way. the u. s. did what the soviet troops in afghanistan, that brzezinski has admitted an interview that that was a trap set for soviet union using them hoosier dean. i think it's the same thing in ukraine. there. set a trap for russia at, with using ukrainian neo nazis in the forefront, ukrainian, or mila regular military and ukrainian people that they don't care about. and they will fight this war to try to. we can, if not bring down russian gun, which i think is highly unlikely. but the fear, the fear i have is that if russia even the sweeps to a decisive victory all away from dumb best or the south in odessa to the romanian border, that is going to be a land and

a possession difficult to defend. they will continue to stand weapons there and they'll be attacks, it could go on for many, many years. perhaps i think that's what the u. s. wants here, and they're gonna try to bleed russia and ukraine. and i think this is what the strategy is. well, i mean, learned that that has to include the willingness of ukrainian population to go along with that. that remains to be senior because it's joe is pointed out and i think it's so pressing to talk about this is that there's a civil war going on in ukraine as well. it's never framed that way in the west, but we've had this, you know, that these tensions that go all the way back to the origins of ukraine when he got its independence. you had very different narratives about what it means to be ukranian, ukrainian history relationship with the west relationship with russia. and now it came to blows. we had the li, who in 2014, and then we had the ethnic cleansing of the don bass for almost 8 years. so, you know that this kind of narrative, it's, you know, russia bad ukraine,

good russia, authoritarian russia, ukraine democracy. i mean, it sounds like to our western audience would probably gets 8 minutes for a news a week. ok. but, and it works. so it works to the powers that be because this story is so much more complicated. and if you, if you start explaining it, then people will start having questions and that's not what they want. martin go ahead. exactly. and the last thing, the big major in the west once is people asking questions that creates a whole new narrative that could open up new, new avenues, opprobrium and scrutiny the moment you know, where we're working in a, in a period where western media, particular british media in america, media doesn't really want to look at any of those particular incentives, subjects that just listed at the beginning. if we did, if we had journalists that ask those really good questions is not, could create a completely different momentum in countries like britain, america and people might start asking to difficult questions themselves or not

start asking questions america, for example, and we really forge so the $3000000000.00 and so a country, those are the, well, we don't even most americans gotta find on a map. i mean, it's ludicrous this idea. the person in america has this cultural, historical connection with ukraine. i don't see it. i wasn't for this when i went to school, you know, it's difficult to, to see where they're going with that now, other than removing him as a russian leader, that was the launch in step 2. and i think we're living in a era now when we look back at history, the end of the 20th century in generations to come. people who say this is a period of folks, he was not with the with nate. so, western countries where it goes toward more, you know, we've sent all the people to go to war, to fight a fight flores and ukraine is very much. it's a, me, a pub car park. so have a scrap with people on the road so you don't agree with the views on and you have

your, you know, your own chips objectives and i think some people in the western. no, i understand that you're not asking and i expected anything from the west. and john on this you know the, the reference to national, neo nazi groups watching your favorite, how many people know how you can understand that? you know, we, for 2 world wars and fascism and it's very difficult for newspaper edison owners now to sell this was all the gruesome details that are going on, you know, but at some point they will know, you know, in my, my worries just show my sick pointed out that some, you know, the ruler is where, where is this going? now, where is this leading? is it? does it lead to new cia solutions that come up? we'll talk about that a little bit in a 2nd half the program. but joe, you know, talking about all of this money when you know, you look at the, the middle class and working people in the western world been crushed for the last 40 years under neo liberalism. but there's not plenty of money for ukraine that is notorious being one of the most corrupt countries in the world. one minute before

we go to the break, go ahead joe. well, like i said, they don't care about the american people. look at what ukraine has been. it's a gravy train. it's a place for carpet baggers when the soviet union fell. they floated into russian acid strip. the country published the russian people created oligarchs, and yelton. it all happened put and came and stopped that he was younger coverage who didn't take the deal on one of the russian deal. and they probably saw that the gravy train that continued in ukraine all those years could and did not forget joe biden. and hunter button went in there afterward was part of this carpet bagging process. that is what you crane is for the west, and i want to lose that. well, it certainly when the pentagon comes out and says that it has no, it has no accountability. what happens to all of these weapons that are flooding into ukraine? and i, i'll tell you gentlemen, i visited ukraine many, many times, most journalists to write about it, never been there. so those weapons will end up being used against the west. eventually, they'll end up on the gray market, the black market instantaneously,

because these are valuable weapon systems. the, and these are the people that are in control. and the fact that they want to continue this war shows they have no respect for their own people. they are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on who's winning. mm. oh. for . ah, lisa hunter. russians state patrol never. i've stayed as i phone and the most landscape div us. mm hm. and i can also house lamps and up for a group in the city. probably. okay, so mine is good fargo speaking one else about this. even though we

will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aunt, rush up to date, and school ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest. and we could pull that question. did you think even close with a with welcome back across like were all things considered? i'm peter labelle, to remind you we're discussing. who's winning? ah,

go back to martin in mirror catch. martin, one of my favorite films is dr. strange love. i think it's quite it's, it's sister. yeah, i can't. i never get tired of watching it. ah, because i'm i'm fascinated with history geo politics and it's about my lifetime. okay. um i see a new version. dr. strange love 2 point. oh, that even kubrick couldn't even comprehend about the level of stupidity and ignorance and arrogance. when people talk about nuclear warfare i miss sounded we at before we started our recording, we lamented the losses stephen cohen, which warned us about this. go ahead, martin. you know, i just think this a pass and i mean, i just the strange love doctor, strange of the parallel is a funny one, but i just, i just think it's a pattern that we're experiencing. now when we look at ukraine, if jones, of my age, and step back and look at what's going on in the region and how america just creates lost

a shelf package almost for international media when it goes in to countries like syria or even as far back as iraq, the 1st 1st iraq war and you just love it and we get this massive oversimplification the situation where people explain to the media. these guys on one side, what kind of what house needs on the other one, like how much. and we saw it and you just love it, most of which most of which really quite demon savings painted to be. but he simply wasn't very cooperative with madeline albright and others. and we tried to, to put a sort of us in germany. ideas was in terms of funding solutions and in, in the region and in, sir, it was the same thing. you have this over simplification of the facts. this is this polarization of our report on the news. john, the su, can't cross from one side to the other and the same things happening now. in

ukraine, everything has been made so simple for us to digest the rest and journalist. there are so few. this is the worrying thing. there are so few journalists on the ground now in ukraine, you just sent invoices who are able to ask more difficult questions, hardly any reconstituting characters, you know, like generally in sitting there who are operating around because what will happen to those channels? you know, we saw recently with the rest of the, actually in blogger, because on the mirror, he was detained by the train security forces for a week. and that was a signal for me to journalist west. and john, this is what happens to you when you break away from the spin, spin fed narrative from the west, from our own public relations executives in jeff on how you look at the store is when you break away and you start asking difficult questions. you're going to say is this fun treatment? and i think this is a tragedy of this when it's a, it's a very sad thing. i think he was good. so who said that the truth is,

blinds those who look at it too, too, too brightly, almost like it's a light in your eyes. and i think it's really true in ukraine. you know, we don't know what's really going on that, but your point earlier it's, uh, it's not checking on the where these arms are going, you know, i have a 6 walls and in my career and i can tell you that corruption doesn't stop when a war starts interruption actually defies. you know, and there will be plenty of international arms dealers on the black market looking to buy those american weapons on those british weapons before they even get off the ramp. and we will end up and you can go to your credit or somewhere else in the world. and we'll find out about this in years to come, you know, who's getting rich? well, the journalist asking these questions, want to putting zalinski on support. how does this guy have all this money from being i want to talk about that to get a little bit later. but, you know, joe, i'm sure you saw lives trust the foreign secretary. she had this big, big to do over the weekend about how important to ukraine is. and just to get both

of you, you know, i read the speech. it was very difficult to get through. but i have one simple question and then no one seems to want to answer is it what is the national interest? what is the u. k. national interest? what is the european union's national interest? what is the american national interest in getting involved in this regional conflict? in europe, you have an answer for me, joe, because nobody in power wants to answer it. peter, 1st before you want to go to war, you got to make sure your domestic populations on the control that they're not going to cause any trouble. if you can, whip them into a frenzy, as we've seen the for a cause, that means nothing to them that even as you point out hurts them biggest, $33000000000.00 rather than going for their healthcare and other social needs is being squandered in a foreign country to help a leech with their interests and to bring down a government that is no threat to the united states. died, i didn't read trusted speech, and frankly, i do say must be very difficult. well, you know that once you know joe joe, i read it so you didn't have to,

so keep go and get it. yeah, exactly. i mean when she, when she identified part of the russian territories being and you carrabba's back to last time, i wanted to hear anything from her. so i think that the scary part as a, as martin was talking about is you can't bring up anything to challenge this narrative because they need their population solidly behind. and right now the us and britain have and sort of germany. it seems like as well, to some extent fred, i mean, this is a very scary moment when the sanctions on roger actually having a worse impact on western is lives than in russia. this is something that is going to have to become evident as a martin also said, they're going to get the truth eventually. but in the meantime, we have to slot through this and try to stay on shut down as far as websites go. and our, our journal is, we get, you know, just try to hammer on the things that we've been talking about here. look, martin, you, you brought up mr. zalinski, the president of ukraine. what,

what do you make of him in his role here? because a month into the conflict and in simple there was a meeting with the ukrainians and the russians and a deal actually made a separate program about it. possibly was in the making. his government seem to be making some concessions. and then the next new cycle from washington. no, no, no, no, no, you don't hear. so what do we make of mr. zalinski here? and he's become very, very, very rich apparently according to and sources. yeah, we, we have to be careful as a last, well speculation on, on the incident. but we know from, from the, from the previous investigations that he had at least 600000000 tons of shit options from his companies. that seems to be a fantastic amount of money for canadian, even though he owns and production company, we're talking about

a series of comedies and television, which are broadcasting distributed for a long time, only a new crimes. one of course comes near it so i don't understand how you acquire that kind of wealth. but my take and i don't have anything to fight this up. it's just my gut instinct. what. what i feel about zalinski is that he's a puppets of americans, and he's been a puppet from the very, very beginning. think looked to back a 2nd horse after portion. i think he was the one that kept to reserve. i think they are the one who i think they are pumping money into his media organization and they groomed him very, very early days to finally take this role. and i think, you know, this is really what we're looking at. we're looking at, you know, these days we're living in an era of the west into meaning and meddling in so called revolutions all over the world. you know, i think lens cubans, the perfect couch, just from the beginning of the identifying as somebody who could play the role and be completely out to the west direction. the question is whether you,

whether you stay on message or do stay well, i think, i mean, i mean, i think i have to say it is well, he survive it. i think that's also in the hard sir. joe, what do you make of him here? because, i mean, the one thing that i didn't expect i wanted my, our viewers should be clear. i mean, i warned that this was going to have, i warned in december, january and february i, every single program i went over and over again. you're not listening, you're not taking this seriously. and, and then it happened. ok. and zelinski ended up being just this kind of, he's the media star of this. i mean, and this is what happened. it's, it's a, you have a battle ground, a battlefield in ukraine where people are being killed and then you have another battle and it's all about media and cultivating this personality. and that's what makes is a parallel experience here. go ahead, joe. well, 1st of all,

he's changing his opinion every 5 minutes. literally in the same interview, you could see him say opposite the bench that he will talk to the russians and he won't talk to the russian. so you don't really know what his position is, but we do know he's under enormous pressure from london and washington. absolutely, and probably from extreme us in his own country study. he may have the right instance. we don't know, but we'll never know because he's not allowed to follow them. he a puppet, of course, every ukrainian leader is a puppet. after 2014, they took over the united states, took that country over it's part of the u. s. and why it's basically a possession of the united states right now. they're fighting this war for the u. s . against russia. it was an opportunity for us to fight russia on the ground without the immediate risk of a nuclear confrontation. because right now, nato, i mean, you, chris, i'm part of nato though it is, it be fact on nato country where they got arms training exercises. they have build it up as a de facto member of nato and have used this opportunity to fight russia. so this man, i don't know about his money,

whether he takes cocaine or not. i really dismissal that it's not it, not important. what's important if she doesn't lead you crying he's he is a puppet leader, and any one continues to be in office will be that include him, potter. shank, a look at the tapes that have emerged about how bite and talk to him. and we know if u. s is running the running ukraine, this is the, this is the fat. so you can't really take seriously as zalinski. and what he really wants for his country is, seems to be relevant to what the united states wants for. margaret were rapidly running out of time. i'm going to make a prediction here. article 5 will be tested for a in the immediate future. because now the logic is, i mean, if, if the west is setting in arms to kill russians and ukraine, that the, the russians have to say, well, you know, we do something about that and, you know, it going across our ukraine's border to the west to stop that i think is in the cards unfortunately. and the nightmare of nato will finally come to fruition.

because does everybody want to go out over into war with russia? because he would because poland wants to send arms to ukraine. 30 seconds, go to your andrea and go ahead. i'm gonna, i'm gonna trump you, i'm going to take that idea. and so i've predicted in my articles recently, but i think it's only a question of time before british american soldiers, russia, since you're crank. and i think the reason being behind it is because at a certain point, public in those countries are going to start complaining and start asking questions about why and how we can carry on funding that extraordinary amounts of money in or including incredible amounts of money into military industrial complex towards ukraine and the solution that those leaders will then come up with a later point is where we got it wrong, but this is how we should fix it. now we need to send those. so just to finish off the job with equipment that result and i think this is where it's heading. i think british prime minister burn stroke just recently sent 7000 ships onto the borders. i think the next thing that we're going to see that 3 months is actually

a ground invasion. so that's what really worries me. i'm an awful lot for a bigger long term. a gemini plans from britain america to pick off digital states, no damage. or we can supposedly pension and to expand their geopolitical objectives . i don't think we can afford it. well, i can't guarantee that the russians. well not under any circumstances, lose this conflict. to on that gentleman in our audience here, that's all the time we have. thanks to my guess, american and in sydney and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our p. c. and next time remember ah

ah mm oh, when i was showing wrong one. 03. just don't hold any world to shape out these days because the kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground.

ah ah, the you is secretary of state posts about promoting freedom of speech in america. despite criticism for banning opposing narratives, india's prime minister continues is to have your permit ongoing western pressure on you delhi to drop into trellis t over the warn you crane and joined the crippling sanctions against russia. and quacks appear in european society of military support for kids as hundreds of vulgarians protest against weapons supplies to ukraine. if you know, we want to ban approved to bulgarian territory be used for hitting either of both countries of the war. one of the governments favorite phrases as they can.