ah, ah hello and welcome to cross thought were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, american assistance ukraine continues apace so much so it makes the following question. at what point will russia consider the us to be a co belligerent in this conflict? the fact is, washington is at war with russia and russia is being forced to respond with cross sucking escalation. i'm joined by my guess least shanahan in sioux falls. he is a host of the backstory on radio sputnik in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer in the united nations weapons inspector, and in sydney we cross who alley risk. he is a contributor with al monitor or

a gentleman cross huck rules and effect. that means you can jump any time he want. and i always appreciate, scott, let me go to you 1st and del mar, i see that you have a lot of books behind you. i know you write a very often a, you write for a column on the art you website. i. so i have kind of bullock some linguistic, quick questions for you. in the case of the ukraine conflict, what does the word proxy mean to you? and what does a word co belligerent means to you? because it seems to me they are very elastic in this complet. go ahead, scott: well, to me, i mean when, when we speak of a proxy where we're basically saying that ukraine is, is doing the billing of the united states. it's in effect of the united states military under another dies um, you know, it, it, that's a standard term of proxy. so ukraine has an american proxy or a nato proxy in terms, especially in terms of implementing a policy that had been outlined by secretary defense, lloyd austin, when he basically said that the goal of the united states is to bleed russia dry

and to make russia we um, the army that saw that that, that, that seems to be the tool to make this happen is ukrainian army. so it's an effectively a proxy of the united states implementing a policy of the united states co belligerent. um, if you, if anybody thinks the ukraine could sustain this, this resistance that, that it's, it's undertaking right now without the it it, the assistance of the united states and nato look, think again of the united states. naval been pouring and money and equipment material and providing political support as well of that has allowed this so this, this, this resistance to, to continue. this makes the united states and nato, a co belligerent in this conflict with russia. they are at war with russia. they're telling they're not, but the fact is, through this proxy conflict, united states and nato is your waging defacto conflict with russia. ok,

well if i go to you and sydney, we had officials in the u. k. very um, a buoyant about the fact that ukraine is using nato weapons to attack russia. so it doesn't, isn't that kind of a, a free for all. now i, shouldn't russia be able to hit a british assets? it's a in poland. i mean that the same thing here. go ahead. indeed, i think that the latest developments have charlotte, what's happening? it is a wider western war being waged against, fraternal, just a ukrainian war. so there are multiple enemies, russia is facing as your previous guest. a said i'd have to mention here the report which was published when york times today, which mentioned but the americans were providing intelligence tele accordions, which led to the target in keller and killing of russian generals. so i think things have become clear as to how many enemies the are the russians and are facing

them ukraine. now, rianna regarding your question, does that make her other western assets targets? so perhaps wisdom's arms with arms shipments headed to ukraine. of course it does if the situation continues to unfold, and i think this is one term brushing for a minister. so bill of rob was alluding to when he warned against the consequences of a proxy law. he actually said to her, there was a proxy war being weighted against russia from ukraine. ah, so i, and i believe that term if things continue as they are and that doesn't seem to be on any signs that the west will, these, this escalation. so with this continues, i think that there is a fair chance that we could see a further expansion of the war. a may be his collation ah, by the russians which couldn't possibly expand beyond it. claimed was on my borders

or maybe i am certain weapons shipments which are coming because i still get 2nd arm. a lot of people are saying that this is to hawaii, ukraine resistance that have been able to withstand. but i think that one major elements which has been further underscored after the new york times reported a is that the ukrainians regarding their getting a lot of advanced assistance, which hadn't, has enabled them, continues with putting up a fight against the russians. well, lee, they, it, it seems to me and, and this is what the, the, the nightmare of nato is there. think of, of the invoking article 5, because i mean, if nato is sending arms and it is sending arms into ukraine to kill russian soldiers, then you have a self defense argument to be made. so i mean hitting and arms depot in romania or in poland would seem fair game because poland and romania are, are a belligerents in this conflict. they are all in on one side here. and that creates

a dilemma because does the rest of the alliance want to get involved with a, a proxy war that they may not necessarily want to be involved in hungry, for example, go headley. well, i, a dealer player here is american people. and although this is not being ah registered in the merican media, it's very clear may that about half the country mainly to repose and a half has no appetite for war. i'm not, i wrote politicians. the politicians clearly do. but the people and tucker carlson on fox news the most to watch nighttime house in history. tucker carlson clearly has no average i'd for war and i think he represents a lot of people if they'd escalate this 2 months ago when his 1st chard, a lot of republicans were giving ukraine the benefit

a shout. but as people realize that zalinski is off, back by george shars and clar shrub and, and biden, and plo c and a never people who they are both versions gene like they see it increasingly as a waste of blood and treasure. well, i'm the trouble, i think, lee, it's very interesting that you know, the biden administration having this information, misinformation czar. i think it's no coincidence right now because i would attend to agree with you. i'd. i am not that i wouldn't agree with the republican party leadership because they're all cowards and crooks as far as i am concerned by drama . but at the same time, i'm big media. a big tech is making sure voices like being heard on this program are not heard. okay, so eat they're, they're, they're certainly may be the will of the people. but if they ever hear anything contrary is a different topic and that's why our tea in the u. k, in the united states in europe is being a,

i diminished in every possible way that we're still fighting. scott, let me, let me go back to you. because in russia's very reactive to all the things the west is doing. ah, we endlessly, you know, talk about energy in europe. well, i mean, why the russians to just turn off to speak it and see how they feel about it. okay . they do, you know, there we go in board, it don't import it. well then don't export it, russia. go ahead scott. i think, you know, good. the enduring legacy of, of very prudent is a, his maturity and the um insistence on russia about it, it in and it hopes others will adhere to the rule of law. but it scares random why scott, i'm sorry. does that apply during conditions of war? well, there is no war to support. i'm trying to mate. okay, there's a special military operation that's a term used by russia. russia defined this conflict. now russia wants to change the

legal foundation of this conflict. the russian needs to declare war against ukraine . right now vladimir putin specifically called it a special military operation, which means it's not war. it's a war like situation, but it's not war. therefore, all of the contractual obligations that russia has entered into apply the russia simply yet shut off of the speakers because then russia would be in violation of its legal obligation, rushes, letting other people violate. okay. or i should i yeah, but scott, i mean let me turn to ali in sydney here, but i mean, the west is breaking the law all the time. seizing assets of individuals without any due process whatsoever. i mean, i appreciate extremely well scott's point here, but i mean, you know, the, the, the way laws being a, an interpreted here in applied is it, there's an asymmetry here. go head alley. yes. well om massena, i'm wasted,

entered measures escalade 3 measures being taken up by the western or the severity of the sanctions that cutting off russian banks from the swift financial system freezing assets, which is basically rushing property there. so there's a war clear violations of orbit as your previous guest said, though, the, the on russian leadership has advocated a role based ordered. this is what to pull, turn on. by the way, the chinese person choosing pink, emphasized during the summer at the beginning of the winter olympics. so that's a world warner which russia, that in addition to china advocate. so for russia to go against a step or a think this would contradict widely very vision or the very order which the national per se, okay, epa let, i appreciate your point. an and scarlet begonia, but there are countries sending military aid to ukraine to kill russian soldiers. okay. and commerce continues unabated. that's very difficult for me to comprehend

that li let go. let me go back to you here. and you mentioned fox news. i thought it was really interesting of the last few nights and ukraine isn't mentioned at all . i just dropped like a lead balloon. lea was because several versus white issue overtook the new cycle. so completely among other things. but let me also say one of the things i mentioned, bullet treasure. i don't last, i heard you're in moscow, you're paying about $215.00 for a gallon gas is as still true. why don't drive, but it's, it's not very expensive. the go ahead. it that's about right in northern california . now i talked to someone yesterday, they're paying $6.00 as a cheap gas stations, $6.00 a gallon. so that's an issue that affects americans and american see that the sanctions have backfired on the you, us. they see that it russia doing fine for dutch

reception here. and this sanction is of hurt to us and washington has avoided any conflict. they don't want body bags try me back because that's when people really started lose it. and the fact that i was at folly, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on escalation state with ah ah, ah, with

ah, what they're doing is we're, we're, we're good. yeah, this is doubles. are going to put well, talked with the school, i hope that i see the flight doesn't work with the bus a with a

ford edge that also choice issue somebody over there or socially. but jim, i'm with him fill up a video with you. look you up for you up with an idea of where they don't work with. welcome back across stock where all things are considered on payroll belcher . manager were discussing escalation. ah,

okay, scott, last time you were on, i don't know many weeks ago, but it seems like every few days biden is giving more, 8cw3cw3x3 trail, you know, 1000000000. i mean, the numbers are really hard to grasp here. is that gonna change the outcome of this out? this conflict? scott? no, not at all. i mean, this conflict is, you know, they're, they're not rumsfeld said infamously, now, but yeah, you go to war with the army, you got um and ukraine's going to war with the army. it had and that, that armies being defeated piecemeal. it's, it was, it was a well lad, well organized, well equipped military force. but according to, you know, russian ministry, defense statistics, which i believe are, are fairly accurate. they, they suffer close to $50000.00 casualties. and this is their front line troops, or they, they had 160000 of those. so right now ukraine is busy mobilizing reservists. um

they're, they're throwing a poorly trained territorial, a battalions into the mix. and then you expect them to incorporate sophistic western military equipment at the same time. as you know, this is a suicide pill. it really, this is a feel good move, move, you know, move by the west to say, hey, we're doing all we can to help ukrainians. but the bottom line is ukrainian military cannot affectively incorporate the heavy equipment at the west. provide you much in its equipment that ukraine's have never used before. they don't have the means to to maintain it, even if they received it made it to the for line military right now in war. stuff breaks unless you have guys in the rear who can fix it. it stays broken, therefore it's no good you. all, all the west is doing is guaranteeing that whatever ukrainian troops fall in on this equipment, they will die in combat. and that's a sad reality. was kind of, i can stay with you here. i think it's also a move of corporate welfare. i mean,

all of the arms makers are very gleeful. i mean, you're talking to their shareholders. you know, this is good for us and all that, i mean, that money money can be appropriated, i suppose the spend, but i think this conflict will be way over when and things like, you know, like that could to the ground. i'll, if i go to you, i mean i'm even more pessimistic about the arms that are going there now because given the level of corruption in you, in and then during the fog of war, things get even more corrupt. a lot of these weapons are going to disappear. i mean, i though the film, lord of war comes to mind here. great film. okay. middle ukraine is well, well known as an arms x border, illicitly. of course, i'm and i worry that these weapons are going to father in the, the hands around the world are worth they even against the west. eventually your thoughts go ahead ali yet now before answering your question directly, just one point i wanna emphasize now. i'm not sure who's willing to swore in my personal opinion appears to be a sale my. i'm not sure maybe august or mr. ritter has better information on why do

but so regardless, you know, the west appears to sincerely believes that who can at least crew along the wall and dragged russia into a quagmire, which is similar to that which happened in afghanistan. now warmer though not those beliefs, are reflect reality. are these plans gonna succeed? that's a different topic. but that does appear to be the western perception or has been expired. i'll a let let sky reply to your comment. go ahead, scott: well, it is military mass. i mean, you know, without getting into too much detail here. um, it comes down to the amount of firepower you, you're able to apply to a specific area, a ukraine's ability to deliver fire power in, in mass quantities with the, with effect the best. so throughout the a breadth of the battlefield has been significantly committed. val rushes has increased. at the end of the day, if you need, you know, 10000 rounds of ammunition to kill a 100 troops,

rushes couldn't. 400000 rounds of ammunition on target, ukraine's putting 4000. so it's a battle of attrition rushes winning, and they're going to win. and there's no way, no way that this military math could be offset. ok them because it's got his arm, so falls a li, you've talked about american public opinion um and it, it, it, and like i said, i pointed out that, you know, a fox news is kind of, you know, we got talked less about it. of course it's, you know, the abortion issues front and center right now, but it is kind of convenient here because lately, if you look at poll numbers, people are getting less and less interested in this and they're more interested in inflation. how much it's going to cost them. i mean, it, we have another one of these cases where it's a, this is an elite issue. ukraine is an elite issue, but it's not really an issue for the american people. thoughts go ahead. well, also on the left the rowers has weighed, issue has become front and center as the fight that the accuracy left or

democrats shoot down the street. care about. they get care about rovers is wade, issue $12.00 and $3.00. that's the biggest issue. and all politicians and on the republican side, as i say, it's not be registered. the immediate report. but i, when i talked to republicans in the grassroots, they're increasing skeptical. zealous he appearing on the grammys, did not go over well with lot people, they season or orchestrated media move. and they're very heavily good. and the reverse and grassroots are important. because by and large, those of pairs of people will be sent in battle. as a really good, it's a really good point name scott, let me go back to you. i mean i, we've already heard it on this program. i'm, you know, the afghan and ization of the conflict here. i tend to think the russians wouldn't

fall for that whatsoever. i mean, they've been very, very selective in their use of power firepower, irrespective what western media says, because there's western media only reports with the ukrainians. want the media to report. okay. it's very, very clear to me, um that, that there's such a lot more going on right here. and i, you know, that one of the questions that have been raised, you know, how much goes what russia wanted control, i would turn it upside down. is that how much it will you give actually be able to control of what was ukraine on february 24th of this year? go ahead, scott. i think one it so it, we already see the kim's not to be able to control much of a, of what's left. but more importantly, i think that the nature of this conflict is about to change dramatically. um, you know, i said earlier that the present prudence spoken about a special military operation. this war is expanding beyond that. and it's beyond the scope and skill that a special military operation is capable of

a amberley. now we're talking about potential expansion conflict with finland. if a joints, nato, with moldova, if attacks trans mysteria with poland, if they move in to wish it rain. i think it does rushes, a legal country. i think you might see russia change the terms. we go from special military operation to general war that brings within a vocalization it also brings with it a, a dramatic rethinking of the outcome. ukraine will cease to exist, so she had just mitted suicide and stop this war. but it survived. i think that the they're buying into allowing themselves to be used as a proxy by the west is pretty much guarantee that they're finished as a nation. stay. yeah, i've, i, i thought i'm pretty much a try. i made it at my trademark here, and i've said this all the way back to 2014, the more the west, particularly nato, helps our ukraine, the smaller the country a becomes, and with this massive assistance i, i tend to agree with you. it's

a failed state. now, i'm going it. what about the global south? because i've heard lot of different opinions about their, they have refused to condemn russia. is there a certain point where that would change in your opinion, go ahead and sydney that the 1st of all law regarding the one you mentioned about the weapons being funneled to ukraine and how they could come back and haunt the west and lady claus at havoc ah, this is a real clear and present danger for western countries and for your good particular, oh we have neo nazis white supremacists from different groups coming to cry and warning ranks with the as all battalion. ah, the aim of these sick groups or the am of these, they are analyses internal is brightness, is create a fascist state or in ukraine. so at least people get the handle on advanced weaponry, which was being funnel that would clue that could per safe. we all met us to the european national security bearing in mind that europe already suffers from

a neo nazi problem. germany, for example, we saw ah thousands of lord, lord enforcement officials watching an operation. alas, failed operation could apprehend no noisy figures. so that is a very important point regarding the danger posed by the weapons being funneled and the right wing presence in ukraine. hello, captured an act that could effect european national security regarding your point about the global south. indigo is an interesting casing point, despite being an ally of the west, it refused to join the sanctions. campaign continued with trade with russia in asia has refused to exclude russia from the g 20 and most importantly, it is rush his age or sorry, which was the rising economic power, not euro. so with asia rising and asia, not joining the sanctions campaign against russian. i think skewed the skills of russia, a lot of our leverage to continue with us military operation without having to have

any concerns regarding any escalade tree economic measures being taken by its firms in the us. it's got, it's got what a li here t lee. and what we've heard from ali is so very important um about the nature of the regime in care of which they, there is scant coverage of it in western media. there is no context whatsoever. what this conflict means, um, i'm sure my guests are aware of it, like the min scored z illegal overthrow the democratically elected government in 2014. all of these things are left completely out of the west of western discourse . you do not do very many people in america know that, that the one of the, some of the most important military groups in ukraine or neo nazis. have you ever heard that in western media? go, headley. well, i haven't heard in western media, but remember we have a very polarized country in the united states. and increasingly,

republicans are realizing they're seeing ukraine as a democrat issue and not not entirely at but, and other people like mister carnell or whatever, who lived repose and grassroots hates. they may be singing establishing a song, but the grassroots, the thing is you're not gonna see that in the media. but the people who are trumps of wars or more independent minded. i think they are getting a message that this is a nazi regime. and that they been called nazis. don't forget if you or mike had you been called in nazi for the last 5 years. so sure, you see the correlation behind the democrats calling them nazi's but not calling nazis. nazis. well it's, it's very interesting went through a we've learned here, is that the context of this conflict is intentionally being damper. and with this

new misinformation and ministry. and that is only going to get worse, gentlemen, that's all the time we have many, thanks them i guess in sioux falls and del mar and sydney. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, archy, see you next time. remember, cross up rules. ah, ah ah, lisa come to the russian state will never be tied as on the no santini div asking him then that can cause a coup in 55 with

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