ah ah ah ah hello and welcome across the top were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, american assistance ukraine continues apace, so much so it begs the following question. at what point will russia consider the us to be a co belligerent in this conflict? the fact is, washington is at war with russia and russia is being forced to respond with cross sucking escalation. i'm joined by my guess least shanahan in sioux falls. he

is a host of the backstory on radio sputnik in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer in the united nations weapons inspector, and in sydney we cross to alley risk. he is a contributor with al monitor or a gentleman, cross hock, rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, scott, let me go to you 1st and del mar, i see that you have a lot of books behind you. i know you write a very often a you write for a column on the rti website. and so i have kind of a lick, some linguistic, quick questions for you. in the case of the ukraine conflict. what does the word proxy mean to you? and what does a word co belligerent means to you? because it seems to me they are very elastic in this complet. go ahead, scott: well, to me, i mean when, when we speak of a proxy where we're basically saying that ukraine is um, is doing the billing of the united states. it's in effect of the united states military under another guys. um, you know, it, it, that's a standard term of proxy. so ukraine has an american proxy or a nato proxy in terms, especially in terms of implementing

a policy that had been outlined by secretary defense. so lloyd austin, when he basically said that the goal of the united states is to bleed russia dry and to make russia, we, um, the army that saw that that, that, that seems to be the tool to make this happen is ukrainian army. so it's an effective way of proxy of the united states implementing a policy of the united states co belligerent. um, if you, if anybody thinks that ukraine could sustain this, this resistance, that, that it's, it's undertaking right now without the it, it, the assistance of the united states and nato. think again, of the united states. naval, been poring and money and equipment material and providing political support as well of that has allowed this so this, this, this resistance to, to continue. this makes the united states and nato, a co belligerent in this conflict with russia. they are at war with russia. they're

telling they're not, but the, the fact is through this proxy conflict, united states, nato, is your waging defacto conflict with russia. ok, well, if i got to you and sydney, we had officials in the u. k. very, i'm a buoyant about the fact that ukraine is using nato weapons to attack russia, so it doesn't, isn't that kind of a, a free for all. now i, shouldn't russia be able to hit a british assets? it's a in poland. i mean that the same thing here. go ahead then did i think that the latest developments have shown that what's happening is a wider western war being waged against russian or just a ukranian war. so there are multiple enemies, russia is facing as your previous cust. the sand i'd have to mention here, the report which was published when york times today, which mentioned that sir, the americans were providing intelligence to leah koreans,

which led to the target in canada and killing of russian generals. so i think things have become clear as to how many enemies the or the russians are facing them . ukraine, marianna, regarding your question, does that make her other western assets targets? soup perhaps wished them's arm western arms shipments headed to ukraine. of course it does if the situation continues to one fall than i think this is one term brushing for a minister certainly love rob was alluding to when he warned against the consequences of a proxy law. he actually said to her, there was a proxy war being weighted against russia from ukraine. ah, so i, and i believe that term if things continue as they are in the doesn't seem to be on any signs that the west will, these, this escalation. so if this continues, i think that there is a fair chance that we could see

a further expansion of the war. a may be his collation ah, by the russians which couldn't possibly expand beyond it. claimed was on my borders and maybe i am certain weapons shipments which are coming because i still get said, ah, a lot of people are saying that this is a heroic ukraine resistance that have been able to withstand. but i think that one major elements which has been further underscored after the new york times reported a is that the ukrainians regarding their getting a lot of advanced assistance, which hadn't, has enabled them, continues with putting up a fight against the russians. well, li, they, it, it seems to me and, and this is what the, the, the nightmare of nato issa. think of, of the invoking article 5, because i mean, if nato is sending arms and it is sending arms into ukraine to kill russian soldiers, then you have a self defense argument to be made. so i mean,

hitting an arms depot in romania or in poland would seem fair game because poland in romania are, are a belligerents in this conflict. they are all in on one side here. and that creates a dilemma because does the rest of the alliance want to get involved with a, a proxy war that they may not necessarily want to be involved in hungry, for example, go headley. well, i, a dealer player here is american people. and although this is not being ah registered in the merican media, it's very clear may that about half the country mainly to repose and a half has no appetite for war. i'm not, i wrote politicians. the politicians clearly do. but the people and tucker carlson on fox news. the most swash nighttime house in history tucker carlson clearly has no average height for war. and i think he represents

a lot of people if they'd escalate this 2 months ago when his 1st chard, a lot of republicans were giving ukraine the benefit a shout. but as people realize that zalinski is off back by george charles and clar shrub. and, and biden, and plus, she and a never people who are both versions gene like they see it increasingly as a waste of blood and treasure. well, i'm the trouble, i think lead, it's very interesting that you know, the biden administration having this information, misinformation czar. i think it's no coincidence right now because i would attend to agree with you i'd. i am not that i wouldn't agree with the republican party leadership because they're all cowards and crooks as far as i am concerned by drama . but at the same time, i'm big media, a big tech is making sure voices like being heard on this program are not heard. ok,

so eat they're there. they're certainly may be the will of the people. but if they ever hear anything contrary is a different topic and that's why our tea in the u. k. in the united states in europe is being a, i diminished in every possible way that we're still fighting. scott, let me, let me go back to you because it rushes very reactive to all the things the west is doing. ah, we endlessly, you know, talk about energy in europe. well, i mean, why the russians to just turn off to speak it and see how they feel about it. okay . they do, you know, there we go in board, it don't imported. well then don't export it. russia. go ahead. scott. i think, you know, good. the enduring legacy of, of very brewton is his maturity and the insistence on russia about it, it in and it hopes others will adhere to the rule of law. um, but it scares right, scott and i'm sorry. does that apply during conditions of war?

well, there is no war does the point i'm trying to make, okay, there's a special military operation that's a term used by russia, russia to find this conflict. now russia wants to change the legal foundation of this conflict. the russian needs to declare war against ukraine, right? now vladimir putin specifically called it a special military operation, which means it's not war. it's a war like situation, but it's not war. therefore, all of the contractual obligations that russia has entered into apply, the russia simply get shut off of the the spigot. because then russia would be in violation of its legal obligation, rushes, letting other people violate logo or ocean i. yeah. but scott, i mean let me turn to ali in sydney here. but i mean, the west is breaking the law all the time. seizing assets of individuals without any due process whatsoever. i mean, i appreciate extremely well scott's point here,

but i mean, you know, the, the, the way laws being a, an interpreted here in applied is it, there's an asymmetry here. go head alley. yes. hello, miss st. on we said entered measures escalator measures being taken now by the western or the severity of the sanctions that cutting off russian banks from the swift financial system freezing assets which is basically rushing property there. so there is a law clear violations of all over dazzled, previous gifts said that though the, the arm, russian leadership has advocated a rule based order. this is what to pull turned on. by the way, the chinese president changing pink emphasized during the summer at the beginning of the winter olympics. so that's a lot water which russia that have in addition to china advocate. so for russia to go against a step or i think this would contradict when the very vision will be very order, which the national personally epa let. i appreciate your point an and scarlet

begonia, but there are countries sending military aid to ukraine to kill russian soldiers. okay. and commerce continues unabated. that's very difficult for me to comprehend that li let go. let me go back to you here. you mentioned fox news. i thought it was really interesting of the last few nights um, ukraine isn't mentioned at all. i just dropped like a lead balloon. lee. well, because the rover's way to shoot over took the new cycle. so completely among other things. but let me also say one of the things i mentioned, bullet treasure. i don't last, i heard you're in moscow, you're paying about $215.00 for a gallon gas is as still true. why don't drive, but it's, it's not very expensive. the go ahead. it that's about right in northern california . now i talked to someone yesterday, they're paying $6.00 as a cheap gas stations, $6.00

a gallon. so that's an issue that affects americans and american see that the sanctions have backfired on the u. s. they see that it, russia seemed to be doing fine for that perception here. and this sanctions have hurt the u. s. and washington has avoided any conflict. they don't want body bags, cho mailed back, because that's from people really search, lose it, and the fact it, okay, it goes out. finally, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue. our discussion on escalation state was our ah ah

a guy but i want to with this with you with you. i'm with

with full credit, it's going to be out of wood from beach. still easy to the station, but in the board with it there was a ah

ah welcome back across stock where all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you were discussing escalation. ah, okay, scott. no, it's the last time you were on. i don't know many weeks ago, but here it seems like every few days, biden is giving more, 8cw3cw3x3 trail, you know, a 1000000000. i mean that the numbers are really hard to grasp here. is that gonna change the outcome of this out? this conflict? scott? no, not at all. i mean, this conflict is, you know, they're, they're, don rumsfeld said infamously, now, but yeah, you go to war with the army, you got um, and ukraine's going to war with the army. it had and that, that armies being defeated piecemeal. it was, it was a well led, well organized, well equipped military force. but according to, you know, russian ministry,

defense statistics, which i believe are, are fairly accurate. they, they suffer close to $50000.00 casualties. and this is their front line troops, or they, they had a 160000 of those. so right now ukraine is busy mobilizing reservists. um they're, they're throwing a poorly trained territorial, a battalions into the mix. and then you expect them to incorporate sophistic western military equipment at the same time. i know this is a suicide pill. it really? this is a feel good move, move the move by the west to say, hey, we're doing all we can to help ukrainians. but the bottom line is ukrainian military cannot fact of lee incorporate of the heavy equipment at the west provide you much in its equipment that ukraine's have never used before. they don't have the means to to maintain it, even if they received it made it to the for line military right now in war. stuff breaks in unless you have guys in the rear we can fix it. it stays broken,

therefore it's no good. you all, all the west is doing is guaranteeing that whatever ukrainian troops fall in on this equipment they will die in combat in that's a sad reality. was kind of, i can stay with you here. i think it's also a move of corporate welfare. i mean, all of the arms makers are very gleeful. i mean, you're talking to their shareholders. you know, this is good for us and all that, i mean that money and money can be appropriated, i suppose the spend, but i think this conflict will be way over when and things like, you know, like that could to the ground. i'll, if i go to you, i mean i'm even more pessimistic about the arms that are going there now because given the level of corruption and you in and then during the fog of war, things get even more corrupt. a lot of these weapons are going to disappear. i mean, i though the film, lord of war comes to mind here. great film. okay. but you know, great ukraine is well, well known as an arms x border, illicitly. of course, i'm and i worry that these weapons are going to father in the hands around the world, the world they even hear against the west. eventually your thoughts go ahead ali.

yes, ma'am. before answering your question directly to us 1 point one and this lawyers, now, i'm not sure who's willing to swore in my personal opinion, it appears to be a sale. my, i'm not sure maybe august or mr. whitter has better information on why do but so regardless, you know, the west appears to sincerely believes that had can at least prolong the wall and dragged russia into a quagmire, which is similar to that which happened in afghanistan. now warmer though not those beliefs, are reflect reality. are these plans gonna succeed? that's a different topic. but that does appear to be the western perception or has been expired. alley let, let sky reply to your comment. go ahead scott: this is military mass. i mean, you know, without getting into too much detail here. um, it comes down to the amount of firepower you, you're able to apply to a specific area. ukraine's ability to deliver fire power in,

in mass quantities with the, with effect the best. so throughout the a breadth of the battlefield has been significantly committed. val rushes has increased. at the end of the day, if you need, you know, 10000 rounds of ammunition to kill 100 troops rushes, putting 400000 rounds of ammunition on target, ukraine's putting 4000. so it's a battle of attrition, rushes winning, and they're going to wind and there's no way, no way that this military math could be offset. okay, them because it's got his arms who falls a li, you've talked about american public opinion. um and it, and like i said, i pointed out that, you know, a fox news is kind of, you know, we got talked less about it. of course it's, you know, the abortion issues at front and center right now, but it is kind of convenient here because lately, if you look at poll numbers, people are getting less and less interested in this. and they're more interested in inflation. how much it's going to cost them. i mean, it, we have another one of these cases where it's a,

this is an elite issue. ukraine is an elite issue, but it's not really an issue for the american people. thoughts go ahead. well, also on the left, the rower says wade issue has become front and center as the fight that the accuracy left or democrats shoot down a straight care about. they get care about rovers has weighed issue 12, and 3 bears the biggest issue. and all politicians and on the republican side, as i say, it's not being registered. the, the me is our report. but i, when i talked to republicans in the grassroots, they're increasing skeptical. zealous he appearing on the grammys, did not go over well with lot people. they says an orchestrated medium move and they're very heavily good. and the republican grassroots are important because by

and large, those of pairs of people will be sent in the battle as a really good. it's a really good point name scott. let me go back to you. i mean i, we've already heard it on this program. you know, the afghan ization of the conflict here. i tend to think the russians wouldn't fall for that whatsoever. i mean, they've been very, very selective in their use of power firepower, irrespective what western media says, because their western media only reports what the ukrainians want. the media to report. okay. it's very, very clear to me i'm that their son a lot more going on. right. here and i, you know, that one of the questions that have been raised, you know, how much does what russia want to control? i would turn it upside down. is that how much will you kid actually be able to control of what was ukraine on february 24th of this year? go ahead scott. i think one it so it we already see the kids not to be able to control much of a of what's left, but more importantly, i think that the, the nature of this conflict is about to change dramatically. um,

you know, i said earlier that the present prudence spoken about a special military operation. this war is expanding beyond that. and it's beyond the scope and skill that a special military operation is capable of handling. now we're talking about potential expansion conflict with finland. if a joints, nato, with more dover, if attacks trans, the stereo with poland, if they move in to wish it rain. i think it does rush as a legal country. i think you might see russia change the terms. we go from special military operation to general war that brings with it a vocalization. it also brings with it a dramatic rethinking of the outcome. ukraine will cease to exist. so she had just mitted suicide. been of stop this war, but it survived. think that the they're buying into allowing themselves to be used as a proxy by the west is pretty much guarantee that they're finished as a nation state. yeah, i've, i, i thought i'm pretty much a tray. i made it at my trade market, and i've said this all the way back to 2014,

the more the west, particularly nato, helps our ukraine, the smaller the country a becomes, and with this massive assistance i, i tend to agree with you. it's a failed state. now ali get what about the global south because i've heard lot of different opinions about their they have refused to condemn russia. it. is there a certain point where that would change in your opinion, go ahead and sydney that the 1st of all law regarding the one you mentioned about the weapons being funneled to ukraine and how they come back and haunt the western lady, cause havoc ah, this is a real clear and present danger for western countries and for your particular, oh, we have near and ozzy's white supremacists from different are groups coming to cry and warning ranks with the as all battalion ah, the aim of these sick groups or the am of these they are noises, internal is, ripeness is create

a fascist state or in ukraine. so at least people get their handle on advanced weaponry, which was being funnel that could clue that could per say, we all met us to the european national security bearing in mind that europe already suffers from a neo nausea problem. germany, for example, we saw ah, thousands of lord warren enforcement officials washing operation law scales operation could apprehended noisy figures. so that is a very important point regarding the danger posed by the weapons being funneled and the right wing presence in ukraine. hello, captured an act that could affect european national security. regarding your point about the global south india is an interesting casing point. despite being an ally of the west, it refused to join the sanctions. campaign continued with trade with russia in asia has refused to exclude russia. from the g 20 and most importantly, it is rot his age of sorry, which was the rising economic power,

not europe. so with asia rising and asia, not joining the sanctions campaign against russia. i think skew. this gives russia a lot of our leverage to continue with us military operation without having to had any concerns regarding any escalade tree economic measures being taken by its frozen molest. well, it's got a scout go to lee here, lee, and what we've heard from ali is so very important um about the nature of the regime in care of which there is scant coverage of it in western media. there is no context whatsoever. what this conflict means i'm, i'm sure my guests are aware of it, like the men scored z, illegal, overthrow the democratically elected government in 2014. all of these things are left completely out of the west of western discourse. you do do very many people in america know that the, that the on one of the,

some of the most important military groups in ukraine or neo nazis. have you ever heard that in western media? go, headley. well, i haven't heard in western media, but remember we have a very polarized country in the united states. and increasingly, republicans are realizing they're seeing ukraine as a democrat issue and not, not entirely at but and other people like mich for connell or whatever. who's of repose and grassroots hates. they may be singing is savish and song, but the grassroots, that thing is you're not gonna see that in the media. but the people who are trumps of wars or more independent minded, i think they are getting a message that this is a nazi regime and that they've been called nazis. don't forget it if you or may at . you've been called in nazi for the last 5 years. so shiny,

say the correlation behind the democrats calling them nazis, but not calling nazis. nazis. well it's, it's very interest they went through a we've learned here is that the context of this conflict is intentionally being damper. than with this new misinformation and ministry, and that there is only going to get worse gentlemen, that's all the time we have many thanks them i guess in sioux falls and del mar and sydney. and thanks or viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember across a ah, a wrong one. i'll just don't hold any world that you have to fill out these days because the advocate

and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. a doubles are going to put well, talk to you about the school. i hope i see a with a

ford edge that also choice issue somebody over there. both those with you up boils up with the idea is you know, that way if you don't mind ah,

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