ah, a ah ah, ah, hello and welcome across not were all things considered non penal about 77 years ago. fascism in europe was bank, which the price paid for this victory was staggering. that experience remains part of brushes, political and historical dna to this day. on this edition of the program, we discuss why big today is honored in russia and largely forgotten in the west. ah,

to discuss this and more, i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. maxine stop, he is the wrecker of the center of advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and we have to meet with barbara. she's a political analyst and editor knows me. internet media project for a gentleman, cross talk roles, and the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want, and i would appreciate it. let's start out with maxine, maxine, this is a victory day on victory day in the great patriotic wars. it's called here in russia, and if you go down the streets are you see the st. george ribbon is the flags are all out of course, for the victory days, renown for some military parade. and the president giving a speech. what makes it important this year? as opposed to the very 1st one and all the ones in between, go ahead. well,

i think the meaning of the picture day is important in 3 dimensions. one is a war that has united the entire nation and block. every other russian family have relatives or distant relative, or either flaw or a gauge in this war, and some form or the out. so this is, as you accurately mention, this in the countries and dna. the 2nd important aspect of it is, this is a and in about 2 miles on the bench, the russian history that has become the core of the state and entity in the post soviet russia. she's in the early days of the soviet union, the most important date was the number. it sounds, you know, the, the revolution and also russia, it is, they may 9, that is the, the key date kind of shaping the state identity. and finally, and i think that goes directly to your question,

it is important because it is not just about russia, it's about, you know, the human sacrifice. it's about the human tragedy and it's about the ability of great powers, regardless of their geo political disagreements to come to their senses at a critical moment. so the world, you know, and it's, it's fine that political games may come to very, very far and pull the world to the threshold of and i lay sure. and this is a reminder that this shouldn't ever happen. well, these are words of great wisdom here, and i completely agree with your assessment dem, uh, let's kind of flip it upside down. but eventually in europe is celebrated on may 8th because of the time differences and all that time when the war came to an end. but it's not something that is really widely remembered or even honored and on the west. and when i went, even as a child growing up, because my father was

a veteran of the 2nd world war, you know, we, we thought of it, but not on the same, less grand scale. we hasn't been for a very long time. hollywood is kind of taken up the, the slack we're world war to film still, but that's just about it. a huge difference here in russia and in the west. go ahead. well, the main reason, of course, was the loss. a r a b, you will know was a she also all right? is it the lose it in the fall? or right? right, right, right. and then it will. so you have a lease,

i would say nurse a, i mean a uses are, well in fact a b 2 right now sitting there with his no l a r a, you know, she are all the key tomorrow. and there was a letter, a, as a right

now, and then just my next question, maxima, it, i mean, not only is a reverence for victory in europe losing any kind of meaning. we have just the, actually the reverse and deem as already hinted out. it is, we have a form of revisionism. so not only is you know, that not only is the soviet union not given and the peoples of the soviet union given credit for the, the destruction of fascism in europe. it's, it's being diminished and it's actually being played down to the point where was the soviet union while the war started in the 1st place. i mean, we've gone through this entire, you know, a re here is really quite remarkable. and it's actually happened quite quickly. maxine, i agree, i look at it in 2 ways. on the one hand,

it is part of the great revision of history that is taking place in the western societies. you know, where a lot of the see groups in the us and elsewhere are revising their own history. not just the history of other cities or international. so that's part of that pattern or trend. on the other hand, you know, throughout the human history, the most important thing was whose army winds and the 21st century, the growing, technological and information age. it's important who narratives once so i know why by trying to tackle the most important thing, the most important identity making element of the russian society of the russian say this part of this, you know, greater geopolitical struggle against, against russia in my view. well, the same thing, question to you, i mean we,

we have to the new york review of books used to be a po other for intellectual bought. an american, fortunately hasn't been the case for a very long time when i can, i can remember. and stephen po and john mearsheimer know, you know, the great, you know, debating on the, the, the importance of the settlement in europe after the war and how it create the geopolitical environment that gave birth to the post war environment. and we are so much of that seems of just been peeled away. and again, just to d, legitimize any kind of positive role that russia is played on the world stage in the last century. it's really quite remarkable. well, it's true. i need to see how he used the situation so far. it was very easy to read or b,

b, y, e spoken. so concerned about history or what you gave him. roger wasn't aggressive as many story made him stop for the rush is not the, it's not, no ways in the security call so that we can do whatever we want. and you know, so this is, this is what they're trying to do. to support these are all the you know,

in the last the bakery in world war 2, gave rise in russia to send, you know, what did all the de jesus, i want it when he when they said, so you don't the right as knowing we have knowing if we got a few nations down the road, i thought it would be fine. you know, i know when you apologize, a b a, a, a mess. but the most talk will be sent in more more.

so why? what is the story or go for a we destroy inside a while we is no, no, not a, it's a much much really, you know, i in my introduction early vanquishing fascism in europe. but that is not the western narrative right now is the soviet union defeated germany. ok because they want to take the ideological element out of it and the rush is very insistent that it must remain ok. and this is the end. and i think this is so very important because of trends that are going on in europe right now. we can talk

a little bit about what's going on in ukraine as well. but there's, there's this refusal to look at in an ideological terms, go ahead. well, there is a refusal to look at it in on a logical terms in the way they were framed, you know, shortly after world war 2, but definitely not, refusal to look at it in modern day ideological terms, you know, with this quote unquote democracy was our crafts kind of thing. this is kind of a different type of framing of the ideological struggle. that is now, is now be in which i totally agree with what i call it. so it's, you know, that it's an attempt to 1st do legitimize the victory. and then, you know, you try to push russia out, you know, that's all of the pictures, but then come very practical and things such as, you know, the removal of russia,

russia from the un security council that has already been taken place. you know, they talk to review the post war architecture, you know, in the very principles on the basis of it and try to restore a new world order on very different principles where russia is not a player, rather a player. but very, i want to hold this very important that we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard breaking, continue our discussion on some real new state r t. o a a with

with ah, no one, no, sir, no, no, admiral hook, no, no. what door, more shrill to what they should end up unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known. and grill oh, you know, to production for this. sure. sure. good. did that they're not

killed when you suddenly little. sure. he on more mom, you know, margaret thought this is meant new again from all one of i've been there and i've got to learn much sale. i got your name. i wonderful. i wish to know about joy. oh new. i know you didn't oh gosh, more pushed in jail. it's i had to put on with their mother and all our buddy bill could you could help us out. oh boy, that's good to go on. what on this? but we're, we're, she, my and new other. i'm all, i can send more on all said mom, good student, i don't the, you know a lot, i'm all for them out. thank you. bye. a

well to make the process where all things are considered, i get a little this is the home addition remind you we're discussing some real ah let's imagine we had to go to a break here, but you were talking about the nature of european architecture. let's take a look at that. you know, what was what came is result of the war, the end of the cold war. and now, because this is really, i think, the colonel of it all about what kind of security arrangement that europe needs. go ahead. well, exactly, i was saying, you know, it's important. i think it from what we observed today for the western states with us in particular to ensure that russian is not part of the new european security arrangement that is now emerging. and it's not a player that original, but rather pay or both to play and to western institutions,

not just with financial, our assets that been frozen or outside the country in foreign banks, but also morally politically, you know, because you always have to restore a new world war and a new security arrangement on the ashes of the old one. and on the basis of something, you know, back in the day was on the basis of the german and japanese military infrastructure and their political ambitions. both germany and japan were successfully integrated into the western states. no, but today it's, it's an attempt to, to, to, you know, to rush into that type of place. if we can go this way, even don't rush, it was not militarily defeated because you know that, you know, that's, it gets to the point of if your team let me of you because that's what they want. they want a vanquished russian. so it can be integrated like the vanquished countries of

germany and japan. after the 2nd world war demon jump in, this is their programs also for the game and i when i deem it became an ally, but it was, it was the supplicant as well. okay. you know, it's not friendship of equal to the image, you know, so you know, i mean is equal and if you want to buy the mostly by the

soul, you know more about the better i feel you don't want to make people lazy by that. so indeed, georgia rush was, you know, as buying and what would be wrong with my germany and japan or people the west change, gender change. it's a completely different from what you used to be. e neither were, you know, be very upset and all of the lot i don't did you know, if you were probably, she was very much against the style. you

know, a, a, a rush, my general, a t, a l, a, b, a. so that's why we have a, you know, we're saying we call our home phone will a,

you mentioned the regime and can maxine, this is one of the things i find very problematic. i'm in this, in this age of censorship. i, it's, it's, it's so important to be able to say the truth of what's going on and what kind of political elements the u. s. in the european union of the so supporting and ukraine since 2014, when there was the illegal overthrow of the democratically elected government. and so i'm, you know, the groups i'm talking about 8 are probably a sector of all these people here and then are not shy in their ideological dispositions. and this is a well known in the west, but you wouldn't publix don't know it because it's overlooked or not seen is important to buy these or into a small number of individuals that always passing it off for some reason. but it's really quite poignant here on the big 3 day in, in russia,

when the west supporting the kind of forces that the soviet union bank bank, which 77 years ago go ahead max. it was the, the are of the policy making is the, are offset the right priority. so i want to go back to where i started with talking about the today's victory day is important in the sense that it's reminder of the human sacrifice and the ability of the great ours to work together. i think as we move forward, any other less veterans per year from the war and the memory of that war is no longer fresh with the new generations and know the history of the worst obligated. the history of the soviet american british alliance is complicated. so there was a on a number of occasions and appreciation on the part of moscow of the need for a new basis. for russia, we'll start ration made peace, famous speech and un general assembly in 2015, calling for

a new anti hitler coalition against isis. now that did not work out, so we don't really see on the horizon an enemy that would potentially unite russia in the west. so the quality of the leads have changed in the west dramatically. and the new release chosen the priority to, to, to, you know, and getting back to this domain upgrade. all right? russia, is it adversary in any. and every single tool in audiology is used to torpedo it. and you can, here is both the collateral damage and into the policy. you know, what, you know? we've talked, we've talked on this program about changing narratives and one of the narratives, even in my long spell and living in your country, is that i see i see the commemorating victory de more is a victory of the, of the peoples of the soviet union of the russian in all other nationalities,

that sacrifice because that's the key word over and over again is sacrifice that was made here. and it is not to promote or venerate any kind of ideology. it's more a human suffering and sacrifice because it was the soviet union and it was a communist country. but when we think about it now in 2022, it's more about sacrifice. would you agree with her in our lives or whatever they want to see a lot of want to be i don't want to see that was you know, be more summarizes because i would say right there

in the line in portals i see that there were russian people you may all there are, i don't know. sure. read all the really friends i was going to be jeremy was a real and in the same way, i don't want to be made by all that goes on the line a is again corey. we also and your maybe, you know, so i a whole that point when we,

when it was there, really so it's time for us to be and to go there. fire being in that same. and finally, be in the united nations security council passed a, a resolution about ukraine. and it was, it was, it was, it wasn't very specific. i mean, least, there was some kind of agreement here. but it's, and as we think about this day victory day, it really pains me that there are so little, little awareness that a major conflict is in the making. and i, and that's what we should, you know, that's what she considered today. what has been lost and what can be lost again, and i think we're still, we're still are not fairly safe for major conflict and trajectory of things in all this recent weeks. you know,

new york times and talking about. so, you know, they alleged real support of the us intelligence for any military operations can stop rushing, you know, brass and other is really, you know, actually think in my view increasing the stuff like, right, our direct, right, our escalation clash. so i think that's why in my view what, what i just spoke, you know, the quality of the lease is so different from what we dealt with. you know, we'll work to shortly after the world war 2 or even in the late ninety's 99. yes. so i personally, you know, saying that this time is hard times, you know, usually give birth to greater leaders. i will say my and is why straight out here. yeah. big quality leadership in the west and it's nothing to write about

as they say. well, i hope our viewers will take the take away from this program. is that the, the people of the soviet union, particularly the russian nation, separate enormously and the see russia and european neighbors where they are right now. it's really cause for concern parts. right gentlemen, that's all the time we have one of the, i guess here in mosque i want to think our viewers watch here are you see an ex family member? oh, a ah

ah, this whole war block type thinking us versus the good guys versus the bad guys is really counterproductive for everybody. of course, it's not in china's interest to pursue a new cold war or some sort of destructive of competition with. ringback other countries around the world, i would say that even for the united states, that it would be much better service if it did not have to devote as much money as it does to the military to defend spending. and could we allocate some of that towards domestic priorities? mm hm.

a, with fireworks displays and celebrating the historic defeat of naziism are held across the cities in ukraine and the dumbass where russian forces have taken control. victory day celebrations in the dumbass are freely held for the 1st time since the coo and key of 8 years ago. we hear from an american journalist who describes how things work during that time in the city of with ever since my dom happen, they've had free reign and they've been murdering raping robbing people. and quite thankfully russia, ukraine's president zalinski and his realtor.