will be successful, very difficult, time time to sit down and talk ah with me. hello and welcome to worlds apart, the old, bloody merit linens. maxime, show me your friends and i'll tell you who you are. the more relevant today, especially in the context of the war torn ukraine, not only politics, but an entire worldview can be deducted from where one sounds on the conflict. how much do these for client influence the front lines? well, to discuss it now joined by emmanuel gets born italian author and political consultant

. mr. p. one is good to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for the invitation. i know that for you, the conflict in ukraine is not just about ukraine now or it's territory. you wrote recently that it's a battlefield where the west, russia and other big players are fighting over diversions of and you world order. i wonder if these transition to a new world order is inevitable. i do think it can actually be averted if one of the sides is specifically the west. prevails in my, you being young. ah, the transition to want to polarity is inevitable and the event will defeat russia could only slow down the decline of the western medium overdue war. the reasons are several of them have to do with the west.

not only speaking about the loss, so they show credibility, the loss of economic influence over dork. i'm or eyes of china, for instance. i'm speaking about to do west. i speak to the concert called to and speaking about the demographic crisis, the birth of the economy comprises within the west for the more and more level, the increased level of the call is a children's fragmentation western side. so the reason in simple reason and all these reasons have to do with the west, which in my opinion, and not only in my opinion, but also the opinion of several political scientists, will inevitably lead to the decline of wester or medium overdue. or i think some of the west, especially in the liberal camp,

they're also hoping for a transition to your brand new will. but it is sort of a transition back to the future. for example, francis will be, i'm a prominent american political scientist who was a frequent guess i'm, you know, very influential figure in here over the last couple of years, he rode recently that a russian defeat will make possible a new birth of freedom. 2 and that it will allow to renew this period of 1989. putting aside the ability, why do you think that period of 1989, the falling berlin wall, the collapsing soviet union? this emerging american unit, larry, why do you think it was so shortly? the spirit of 89 was so short believe because as you said, it was led by the collapse of the soviet union. so it wasn't truly generally, it was a dollar drive and let's say,

so i'm not saying that it was the money factor because it was and um, but it was a man led by the rise of the polar moment. and as soon as the war experience it on fairness on the money that it is of the unipolar moment, in particular to what they are, the bond being on the ground on the ground. the war started turning the little overnight. so it wasn't about russia because russia at that time was a week, was a plenty of time, no problem. it wasn't about china, which was focused on our internal growth. it was for other reasons.

so i can't, i can't agree with the spirit of 89 because i really, as they said that the spirit was mainly bullard drive them on the very short, regardless of the outcome of this battle for a new world, the united states will remain a very influential country, whatever they do, they will still be a major player supreme player. why do you think they are going to such great lengths and frankly, such risks. now, in openly confronting russia, when they, you know, to get something that they already have an abandoned, why, what it, what is it exactly that they, after? the thing is that the european and american joe politics has a lot to do with russia. so they read the states is already

the 1st measure power of the war. but in order to keep being a global and by the usa, usa, let's say, like works. there are some kind of the, by them rule over asia because as of a kind said, and, you know, my kind, there is the funding, father of geopolitics, rules are rules over door. so for us is not in there of mentally confronting russia. is matter of keeps being the measure power over a because the medium over erasure gives the united states the lead over. do you also mentioned them to one of your recent articles that by an administration in the, in this, in their policy,

via crane and their sounds on the ukrainian conflict is trying to kill 2 birds with one stone under mine, russia, as you said. but also we can, the berlin paris acts is that is to reduce the influence of those political forces in europe, who are in favor of europe's larger autonomy, strategic autonomy from the united states. how advanced is washington at this point in accomplishing these 2 goals? i think the by them, administration achieve the goal because the european party, all strategical dani as put to sleep, has been put to sleep. nobody is talking about the distinction, the damp with the rush. they are only speaking about this is the best and the end of the coupling, which was very, very important for us on the economy. the link between the european

market and russian market has been gone for the energy, the coupling, it will be a matter of months of years. but it will take place. and as you know, the stream to is that. and then we have not to which some years ago was the fine the brain dead by mach wrong, but now is more alive than ever before. and it seems like it is even going to be a large with the entry of sweden and finland. so from my point of view by them administration is already achieved, the goal is sure that americans are moving very fast in, in terms of that strategic objectives that i think it's only starting to john on the european how much they will have to pay for that in, you know, literal terms, you know, every single european citizen and, you know, supermarket or at

a gas station, but also in strategic and tactical terms. as the cost of these policies become more clear to the european people, you think, you know, those results that the americans have achieved for now? do you think they could be sustain? let's start from these. nothing left forever. so when a speaker about to buy them, administration and shipping the goal and speaking about the short or the best of the mean that that and the for the show or to me dara, there can be no peace, no growth between noon on and the rush. this is more than sure about the cost of the long term sustainability. and this is very interesting. actually, the mighty states hoped for, for let bounce,

big 3 and the read sent the french elections because a mac wrong is a seen as an obstacle between the american agenda for europe and the european agenda for europe. because mac chrome is the mastermind of digital tong micron is the one ones right now. the only one up for francis and all of them is the only one wants a dialogue with russia. so you know, mac wrong will be the measure obstacle in the years to come even because my grammar closely tied to germany and also germany or in they looked shoals and the angler medical they hoped for my grocery election because microshare for election will give life to the but he's badly an axis and from the bad,

but it's better. the next is the bounce. the future if you were. and of course, the future of europe, russia relations. can i ask a specifically about the economic sanctions? because you wrote recently that these economic sanctions against most are both unprecedented and planned in advance. but i'm seeing more and more western analysts suggesting that the scale of the sections and specifically the effect on 3rd countries, how painful it is to the rest of the world. maybe the biggest achilles heel and that it may actually come back to her in the united states. do you think that there are indeed so well plan, do you think the united states are calculated accurately the rest of the world's ability and willingness to carry the burden of the american decision? i did right. that they were very long, black and unprecedented. but i also did something they were

mainly they were acted against, they were in union and only a 2nd level. they were and they are aimed at the weakening rush. why? because the united states is a well aware of one fact. no one can expel russia from the global markets. you simply can't, because russia is not the north korea rush, no rush, i is the major do, sir, and explore that of energy goes all over the door. and secondly, as i said, the, the main goal of the main target was to, we can do european union. why? because the united states is a yes, a military ally, but the is also an economic rival. so the sink show regime was a long plan and carefully studied to weaken the european union. and

indeed the 1st target of the sanctions regime as you know, was the norm to stream to so by then the, the work to bomb up with them. now for many years, american political scientists criticized russia for using crude power and extolled the american ability to exercise self. busy or smart power and when other players ban to americans will not because they are forced to but because they genuinely one final official for themselves. do you think the image isn't dispenser of one of the global common good as an author or an advocate of universal. busy rules and value it will change as a result of this whole ukrainian affair. in my opinion, doesn't matter. we do crane war because they show

a crisis of the united states and not to be sold. i mean, not now, not in the years to come because they might the states administration on may the too many mistakes in the recent years. the 1st for firstly am i mention at water. you know, the world that are an incredible impact not only in the rest of the world, but also on the west. for instance, my country, the impact on the public opinion was very huge. there was a growth, an incredible growth of american. he's in the wake of the water because of the death office and i'm saying because of the death of more monica, which was one of the best allies, you know, and he was wildly killed. ok. so i think

the image of the ready state is and their mind they and their mind themselves was undermined by themselves. and the outcome of this war, of the peace of the 3rd world war in pieces will not impact significantly on the image of the united states. on the contrary, in to wheeler footer, all our eyes do warm the blocks. ok, well mr. pierre born, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments in ah, a so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by the u. s.

officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating, but nobody's lane finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. and we started adopting those techniques when i was station in mosul. among them, wordpress positions sleep deprivation, and using hypothermia. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant children. whatever you do in war comes home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. the moral authority, the made america will sacrifice the shimmer of effective interrogation.

ah ah, welcome back to it was the 4th with emanuel pierre born and italian author and political consultant. mr. p. one before the break, we talked about this transition to a new world order a russia gibbons is with the current system of american dominant, are well known. i think they're almost into logical in nature, but you suggested that much of the global south also has a stake in this transition. what are the potential benefits in just throwing out washington for the rest of the globe, excluding russia? many benefits. let's only think about working many

of washington so most trusted allies, historical ice like india. so your area in brazil and brazil is that it will never light. it's was the show because it didn't america just as the side to side with russia. they need time to work to buy those call to arms against russia. why did so? because the warranty is also elite for them, for they have a global aspiration. so they are citing with russia because we are here before the west against the breast and the west. although all this time, since the end of the cold war ignored the interest of the rest of the ward. this is why by them was surprised by their refusal,

the refusal of their refusals coming from countries like saudi arabia and brazil. but many political analysts like me when and surprise the rest of the war is a watch in these war. and these are saving with russia because the event will defeat the western not on military terms, but on diplomatic terms, and also on economic terms. because if you, if you, if you don't join the sanctions regime against russia, you are fighting with russia implicitly. so the rest of the war deciding with russia hopefully to capitalize them, what people are can see. you also suggested that ukraine is both a battlefield and any go shaping table for the already ongoing 3rd world war in peace is. that's a very interesting phrase. what exactly do you mean, and how's it different from the previous world wars when they speak about the

war war in these, i'm using the concept which was popularized by frances, in the wake of the war. and it is what a political scientist used to call great power competition, what the press or name called war 2. and it is different than compare the to the previous war, the war, because it is a formal, the great powers are to war. but these war is called that and they are fighting across the globe by means. sometimes the color shows us even was there a reason the result of 30 asthma and the new kind of weapons like 5 bucks and the

company was so much more different than in the past. i think you also mentioned that there is a here article that there is a shift towards the periphery that the many of the facilities started to prefers. and that got me and thinking about tolkien books in which protagonists 1st fight for their own land. and then they come together to fly for the so called middle earth. and to some extent, ukraine has a son of gannon, turkey, syria. they're all sort of middle as their position right between, you know, other big players and potentially they have a lot to gain. but also a lot to lose, i think the case of afghanistan is, is a very good one. it's a very rich country in terms of mineral resources. it's allocated geographically in a very advantageous position. but for decades it's been ravaged by conflict. what

do you think is this my strategy in this day and age for such middle earth powers? how should they get, conduct that policy to maximize the benefit and minimize the chances for conflict? well, the best strategy could be the following dialogue with everyone alignment with no one but we are in the mid bill of the war war in peace. so, no, great or not the russia will accept from the as far worse. a full non alignment. if i were talk, if i were a because that's them, i would suggest a you won't be missing my country. okay, you are welcome. you want to use that money to what you're going to ask me. your

money is not welcome, but it will be very, are on the do train war as being the work or should moment of our era and the it, we'd war some the position or follow the just surgically position and countries like us. you said, because i asked them to come back to not only them and it would be very hard, much harder done today to be non aligned to be now from now we mentioned a frances a couple of times and he's an interesting figure he's been involved in the ukrainian conflict, diplomatically since it's very beginning of the site. some of that involvement was quite controversial. for example, a couple weeks ago he post with a nationalist, ukrainian nationalist. so i would have been saying, you know, not a banner, but a few days ago he made some very bold and i would say politically incorrect

statements about this war saying that it was caused by, quote, need to barking at rushes door, which he said to cause the kremlin to quote, react badly and unleash the conflict. but what's the significance of this statement like this coming from one of the worlds and one of the west, most prominent spiritual leaders. i cannot think about any other leader of the so called western world to say something along those lines. well, i wasn't surprised at all when i read the book statements, because the book, now let's say it would be fun. book francis, just like his predecessor, he's a fan of the movie. people are transition and they gave it to way for a zation or the holy see russia relations. why need so just

because they are knowledge, the fact that the west cannot be or increased again, the west is lost to the west and throughout the post christian era. and the holy sea is both a political and the spirit, while power. i think it is the only purely spiritual power of the ward. and so the vatican thinks about politics economics, but also about spirituality and the francis just like his predecessor. so in russia, the so called biblical catholic on a gas, the civilizational decline in favor of stan is a short tradition. this is why the policy has tried in the recent years to approach to russia. and that has the spouse itself, from the west. for instance,

the holy c back the russia operation in syria, the only c friday to normalize relations. we live in as well. the holy c o. m, and the play, they're all doing the obama era, the signing of the nuclear deal. and this is why the holy see right now is trying to escalate the cry between the west and russia out by means of those very strong the corporation because they are very strong or francis center site to go to europe, the united states and russia, the holy see wants peace and would like to be part of the on the lease agreement. and you said that the you weren't so surprised by po francis's statement, but as i was reading american accounts of it and then houses of it,

i think there was a lot of this, me, a lot of anger, some questioning of the pope's cognitive ability and his wisdom, do you think washington downtown should use sanctions against the whole thing? because clearly what the pope is saying goes very vividly against what the by the administration and the rest of the west is trying to push as the as the truth. well, you know, sanctions are the best, the tool of the month, the states foreign policy. so they could try to sanction the book. i think the united states some are magically will for their why the distance with a policy that will not do it openly. but they will the, with for the wrote this optimization agenda in the rest of the

war. because against the background of the war, war in peace against the background of the west, russia confrontation of the seen american confrontation, there is another war taking place across the globe. and the d as a the war. inside the christianity, there is capitalism against the protestant sharks. the growth, the global growth of protestant sharps, is mainly driven by the united states. so the united states might well or apply to the pope's strong position. if they were in russia by for their funding, accelerating systems, they shop several countries. well, mister pick their ball, this is a very interesting conversation. unfortunately, we are out of time. but the only thing i would say is that regardless of which

confession christian confessions they belong to or even which religion we belong to . because many upper hammock religions have a very similar themes, as the bible says lasted peacemakers because they will be called children of god. let's hold both francis or whoever wants to make a contribution to resolving this conflict will succeed, but the time being thank you very much. for sharing your thoughts with us fully agree with you and thank you very much again for the invitation. and thank you for watching hope to sorry, again on well the part ah with

what we've got to do identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on authentic, very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk if anybody's been trapped in an elevator, 20 minutes can be pretty long time. right. and the load trapped and an elevator.