ah, ah hello and welcome to cross out where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, is the wes sleep walking us all into world war 3. it sure looks like it continued nato expansion eastward, massive military aid for ukraine's and the drive to destroy russia's economy, all point to a direct military conflict with moscow that anyone vote for this cross stocking the european war, i'm joined by my guess ira flounders in jersey city, she is a co director of international action center in tasmania. we have had see he is a conflict consultant in a retired u. s. foreign service officer and in geneva we have alfred desires. he is

a former you an independent expert on international order and author of the upcoming book, countering mainstream narratives, fake news, fake law, and fake freedom or a crosswalk rules in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciated. alfred let me go to you 1st in geneva. i everything i said in my introduction is true and i, i, and with the question, did anybody vote for this? because we seemed to be going in a direction that you, there's no stopping, no one's putting the foot on the brake. most a disturbing of all, um, nato seems to have no interest in ending the conflict in ukraine's actually just the reverse. one of the reasons why this conflict came about and i have come across a wide array of opinions about it, which is perfectly fine. i'm open to debate, but it is, was nato expansion was one of the reasons why russia acted the way did. and now nato expansion is again on the agenda here. i'd like to point out to our viewers before february 24th rush, you said it would react with mil,

very technical reaction. that's still on the cards here. ok. the, the, the, the next, the necessity to have security in europe is not being discussed. is matter fact it's being discarded. that's a long, long question from. for me. go ahead alfred. well, george kennan, the father of the marshall plan, henry kissinger, jack mack law all worn about the dangers of expanding nato. now it is profoundly, on their own credit, to have been merlin, sweden, as for membership in may, without conducting a wide consultation of population because it does have consequences. making sure that the population understands the implications. and then having a referendum, i am both a citizen and

a switch citizen. and here and switch and we just had 4 different referenda last sunday, sunday. the 15th of may. and i have not missed the symbol referendum since i'm a citizen. and back in 2002 even switched membership in the united nations. switzerland was not a member. we was broke the rope and a just made with somewhat more than a majority or something as important as joining a military organization, the military organization. that if you know the judgment of the number, you don't know if you know the actual of the number one, article 9 or the longer an agreement of 8 august 945. there's the concept over criminal organization. and buddha things and the

swedes realize that they are actually joining an organization that because of its history of aggression, war crimes, crimes against humanity. in your law, the don is dining rock in libya, syria, et cetera. very easily could be class in this special category of criminal. okay, let me, let me, let me go to sarah and jersey city. i mean, not only is need to expansion and the card still within when in sweden, just in the last new cycle the american officials have said that ukraine does not even may not even have to go through a, a induction process. it could be just be made, a member of nato would be breaking all of nato's own rules. i mean, you know, they call, they constantly talk about the rule of law and rules based order,

but they break their own rules all the time. obviously ukraine has a territorial conflict with russia. ok, and so what they're doing is they're actually wanting be there. the in fact they want the lines to go into all out with russia because ukraine and russia obviously have a military conflict. but no one is talking about this in a logical fashion in the west. go ahead, sarah. well, 1st of all, ukraine already is a de facto member care of nick, a u. s. commandant military machine. that's really what it is, and nato ukraine for a long time. has it's for gates have been involved in the war in iraq, in afghanistan, in all kinds of military war maneuvers. and there were thousands of nato trainers advisors as they're called in the ukraine. there was a equipment just pouring ins really since 2014, i didn't just begin so as

a de facto member not, not voted anywhere even by the member countries. ukraine is very much in nato, and it's the whole purpose of nato was to expand to the very borders of russia to threaten russia. that's been its purpose from day one. and it was the reason that it expanded, ever since the war in yugoslavia through the balkans, through the countries of eastern europe right to the borders. and it's the reason today without any vote, no democracy about it. the expansion of or the inclusion of finland and sweden is being considered finland a country of a 5000000 people. right? pledge to neutrality since world war 2, who never pay the price for what they did in world war $2.00. if they pledged to remain neutral and we see that that's just gone by the board. so every step of the way, none of this is democratic for the countries involved. it's certainly not for here

in the u. s. where the overwhelming or the majority of the people are against war, and biden hasn't delivered on any of the promises he made. you know, turn it, what are they unfortunately during the cold war, you know, stephen cohen, god bless his soul. we left this too soon because he was such a great thinker in great person actually to and you know, he prophesies as he said, that the war was, would be inevitable with theirs. we continued nato expansion. and one of the great things he said is that during the cold war, which he chronicled very well, he said, at least the western leadership put themselves in the shoes of the kremlin. you know, and so if let's put our feet in the shoes of the kremlin right now there's a conflict. ukraine. one of the antecedents was nato expansion. and now to other countries. ben went and sweden want to join. i mean, the russians, obviously this is a, is a aggressive threat, but no one gives that angle in western media. go ahead, ted. here,

i can't recall a campaign to demonize ation as thorough knowing as the current one against russia in western media. and i want to, i want to take a minute and explain my position here. if i may, i was 26 years. the us diplomat. i spent more than half my career working with or at nato. so i'm intimately familiar with the institution and it's byways. and it's quirks. now add to a retired diplomat. i'm a great believer in winston churchill phrase that george saw as always, better than war war. and for that reason alone, i do not condone rushes operations in ukraine, but given the level of provocation, especially the hypocrisy that nato is displayed. i certainly understand them. first, zelinski goes the munich security conference in february and talks about rolling back ukraine's decision to get rid of nuclear weapons. second,

despite the fact checks it appeared, western media us funded by a labs in ukraine are a reality and have been since the nunn lugar cooperative threat reduction program went into effect 30 years ago. no, 30 years ago, it might have made sense for nato. the us and western countries to help former soviet states like ukraine, to do away with this w n. d stockpiles. what goes lab? they're still doing an operation 30 years later, beggars the imagination, you know, what ukraine has done is they've had to ukraine the russia, the same exact excuse that the us and it del, i've used to invade iraq in 2003, which is w m d counterproliferation now point 3, there's an ongoing military humanitarian crisis and the bass has been for years now . people are beginning, sheldon killed willy nilly without almost any reporting in the western media. but

this is also the same exact excuse that nato used 999 yet to conduct over kosovo humanitarian intervention. so if it's good enough for bill clinton in 99 and it's good enough for w in 2003. why isn't it somehow good enough for president to exercise the same authority in 2022? well, i mean, i'm glad to bring that up because alfred, i mean, we've, you know, with essentially, with these kind of low octane thinkers in the west. you know, i mean, they're all over the place, liz trust, you know, anthony blink and all of these people here, they would, they want to know they were on some kind of war footing. well, the russians might actually take the same attitude as well. i mean, how is it that nancy pelosi can waltz around the center of kev during a military conflict with russia. ok, because the russians are not targeting it. they're not interested in it at all. but at one point they might go ahead alfred. well, you address the issue or rules based international order,

you address blank and binding. now, here it is, we have it the united nations charter and want has made on what has the united states done. we have not only violated articles one on 2 of the charter we m i lated the spirit of the charter, not only the letter article 2 paragraph 3 of the charter requires that we negotiate in good faith right now. but it has been negotiating, try to reach some sort of a peaceful solution to the dumbass problem. since the could occur against the democratically elected young coach and ukraine, which we call finance that we know are from victoria moreland. now, 8 years old negotiating, 8 years old, seeing better hankle and zalinski violate an immense agreement one and 2

systematically. and then in december, last for putting up puts on the table to moderate our trees, which are then dismissed by owenberg biden. and i have to jump in here, will we have to go to a hard break? and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion of the european war state with ah, need to come to russian state full narrative on the northland scheme, devastation and sons. within the

50000 middle keys on 925 and speaking with wil fan in the european union. the kremlin media machine, state aunt rushes to day and split or t smooth. next, even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and sadly put little she bigoted even crystal channels with me. ah, the 1st time in history, an entire country's culture has been cancelled the very modern weapon council culture really desert. wonderful. i wish i feel my love,

so when you get just me sitting there with the phrase now particularly refers to counseling russian culture. and yet them know what she cleared up. she was the zip to william. i was sure you will be all there is chill. i, there we fill out that all the most of the separate random eat them, we what rushes created over the past 1500 years is now question. actually condemned, reviled and rejected. to sit in line with me at the will of bramble. there's a lot closer on a whole bunch. thank you said a little short list. joining total condemnation grows daily and now include dust, dance gate to cascade, shostakovich. i need to you all left, but yes, you can see that what that done, will you do? obama lee? you're not going to do that enough with

ah, ah ah ah, welcome back across like where all things are considered on payroll about remind you we're discussing the european war. ah

ok, let's go back to sarah in jersey city. there seems only be one gear in play here in this to move forward with a conflict. and what is how i find so very peculiar is number one. what is winning mean in this conflict? i mean, i don't even wanna even go down that path. i mean, i think these people have no idea of the dangers that they're creating. number 2, even at this stage of the conflict that should have never happened in the 1st place . i'm western public's or, and, and consumers are being affected. i like to, you know, we've talked about on this program, really the conflict in iraq and syria and libby and all that was, that really didn't affect the western citizenry very, very much. this is beginning to really a bomb pinch, a lot of people here and there seems to be no easing down and even willing to sit down to talk. i mean, we up there the, we have the french, the, the italians and the germans are, you know,

way we should talk about negotiations while pushing more of war sanctions. will. that's not how negotiations work. so as a sarah, i mean this is why i'm so depressed and worried is that they think something is winnable. i don't know what that means because that could entail in i elation of everyone. go ahead sir. well, what does winning mean to you as strategists and war planners? it really means can they great the relations, the trade relations. he economic exchanges between the e u, specially germany and russia. could they do this through war and the demand for sanctions? we shouldn't forget that by promised nuclear war if, if the sanctions weren't voted said it's world war 3 or it's sanctions. so from the very beginning, it's been how to break the economic relations and it has come back and hit with a vengeance on the countries of the e. u. here in the u. s. globally,

in terms of famine, literally in africa, when you have spiraling inflation, raises an energy cost. it is a war that has already reduced ukraine from the most prosperous country at the time of the division of the soviet union. the most prosperous of the republics to today, the poorest country in europe. and the war is now making the e u, they're really paying the price as they say, folks in britain have to choose between heating and eating. now, how has russia fought this war? they fought it very differently from the u. s. in the u. s. from day one, iraq afghanistan, anywhere in the world. they knock out the water, the sanitation sewage, the food warehouses, the entrance, all the communication systems, day one, and they advertise it,

they push it out. the hospitals, the medical center, that's what's destroyed. that's not what's happened in the ukraine. there. the bakeries were still open in kiev internet. that's how world politicians from colo see. you folks are all able to visit jeff, isn't that unusual in a war? but russia is fighting us in a very different way, very much against than not c. fascists forces that have been organized right within the don. it's so we should see the differences in how the wars fought, the aims in it and, and the u. s. aims are, which are to completely use ukraine as upon in order to ensnare russia in a war that they want to have you. and since it's in trust and they are trying to reach a negotiated solution to end this war with the end of the nazi domination

and firing with, you know, i guess the, you know, i agree with much of what sarah said, you mean the price is actually had gemini in europe, but this is because the ever since the end of the cold war will actually even during the cold war, and he kind of german soviet slash, russian reproach mouth was something the washington always worried about. that's why they always have social democrats in germany, just like they have sergeant schultz now in germany. but you know what, what is the price of europe? if there's productivity goes down, unemployment goes up. i mean, you, a social infrastructure is destroyed. i mean, it's kind of a cheap 3rd prize ribbon, isn't it? i mean, just to have had gemini and you punish russia. well, russia can look elsewhere. ok, it rushes related. existence doesn't, isn't dependent on its relationship with europe. go ahead. ted. peter, you're being grossly unfair there and you're asking me to sort of explain by nomics

and mystery to me. i don't think it was capable of explaining what, what that man is up to other than printing money at lightspeed in the process. he can destroy europe's economy. as well, and possibly, you know, from it maybe maybe his vision is, is smoking economic ruin from the atlantic to the urls and not sure. but seriously, we've got a situation where sweeten is looking at abandoning its traditional you know, it's a distance from any war. it stands like switzerland as a non line country, even in europe. and it's, it's just, it's looking, it's throwing that away. finland has been neutral, aggressively neutral. ever since the end of world war 2, they're not stupid. they're right on the border with the soviet union. they wanted peace, they didn't want to be any part of a political military alliance. it's a lot more military political. and now, you know, in the current situation, because we've got this focus on, you know,

the democratic pure haven of ukraine, and never mind that it's, it's any criminal enterprise and has been for a long time. you know, we're all going don't hope for the war for no apparent reason, but for that matter native shouldn't exist. so yeah, you know, we're talking about expanding. that hasn't had a reason to exist since 991. yeah, i've always thought i found, you know, biden's policy, so a biking who ran the ukraine desk during the obama administration and where his son worked at barithium, the u. s. is sending money to people that paid people like his son. it's very kind of peculiar relationship. alford was obviously we were running out of time here is that nato really kind of pushing to see if they can test article 5. it seems like a game of chicken here. ok. and but, you know, if they want to push article 5, so let's say something happens. you know, there's a missile system that the u. s. puts into finland. russia reacts,

and then they have invoke article 5, and then they have their friends and turkey air on says i'm not involved in this. ok, then the entire myth of article 5 of the nato treaty is blown up your thoughts? well, i think that i also said there is no racial battle for natal nato and its claim of full spectrum dominance is a crime against humanity in itself. it is a right incompatible with the un trotter article to power for all the charter through him. it's not only the use of force what it prohibited the rest of the use of force and as cope. frances very correctly said, on the 3rd of may, nato's barking at the door of russian may actually provoke this

tragedy. and that has been carried by the mainstream media may, through media is complicit in this tragedy because they have been actually conducting propaganda for war and demonizing the enemy, by the way, called jury and friends and germany, our old party to okay, okay, let me, let me go to sarah here in jersey. see, sarah, i mean, on this program um from december 17th, all the way up to the conflict on february 24th, almost every single program i made on those 2 proposals that the russians had at one to nato one to the united states. and of course, we all know the reaction. now, i mean, these are not good faith actors. i mean those were good faith. you can call them ultimatums if you want. look fine. ok. but there was a point of reference. i mean, i did, i, you know, in and then you know, when i look at, you know, the, the, the,

the a, we have a call for a, a ceasefire by a def ed secretary law lloyd austin. i mean, well, i wouldn't believe any. i wouldn't really, i wouldn't, i would probably believe a used car salesman more than i would believe the defense secretary right now. i mean, this is really, you know, it's almost impossible. even the wind is conflict out because you don't know who is you, who to talk to. and note the people that you might talk to aren't good faith actors . this was on by the west. go ahead. this is about money, about super profits and everything else has flown out the window including bill back better in the us, 40000000000 dollars in the last, the congressional appropriation along with all the money. it was already flowing in 1000000000 here, 3000000000 there. so much of it goes missing, as we well know in every us war. literally, it's delivered on the tarmac and it's no longer there. now, what was the war meant to do along with the super profits that come from war?

because the u. s. economy is 1st and foremost, based on war, on endless war, on super profits to the military industries. but it was also because german investment in russia was 10 times the u. s. investment in russia. their trade with russia. 10 times what us trade was, their german trade with the u. s. so how does c u. s. break this? turn it around, smash and they are willing to smash the e. u. absolutely. who was both a competitor and an ally, and use the nato military machine to do it. so there, sir, let me, let me jump in here. i want to go, i want to give tad the last word here that i did. the cynic in me says the pentagon in the military industrial complex, they need a replacement for the afghan. could they lost in afghanistan? 40 seconds, go ahead. i absolutely agree,

but i want to make one quick point about nato peter, which is that it does operate by consensus that may seem like just lip service. but it is a fact that if entre wants to break consensus on, for example, sweden and finland joining the alliance, they can do so. and no one can shop there. but ted, well, while we have the time to have the time hang on by the why don't you think that everyone is just wants to make a deal? that's what he always wants. that's yeah, yeah, of course. let's make a deal and he's going to do one of the most favorite terms, the most favorable terms he can buy, extorting the whole alliance. ok, well, you know, extortion, blackmail. all these things are associated with nato. here as all the time we have our, i want to take my guess in jersey, city, geneva, and intense media. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. remember the

the the the business and you agree in the 3 and a revenue notices and, you know, maybe comes graham when you wrote it, you know, we just got to really just such a group of concealing influential stuff, such a circle image of the different student into which we can get you thrown with them the problem and you're still not sure if you're here that i think you yesterday i'm sure you brought in that the studies of play stuff coming off on ok. which, which and it was just in the solution up put stickers to put him on because a new, a divorce load you school don't know who sees the guy?

no, for the don't know as much as a, just a duty method in the mucous with eastchester cleaning for losses. commode with when i was shown, seemed wrong. when i just don't hold any you have to shape out this name because of the after kid and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. with

moscow says captured, ukrainian, neo, nazis must have face justice and thus cannot be exchanged for russian prisoners of war. that's as russia says, that more than $260.00 ukrainian soldiers, mostly from the neo nazi as of battalion, have surrendered at an embattled field factory. and the port city of mario, bold in rti cru follows at the events on the location. we're expecting a hundreds of people, hundreds of neo nazi flight has to lay down arms and well get on the buses. also this our washing to fix, to expand its own authority for investigating alleged crimes abroad. despite long criticising attempts by the international criminal court to probe alleged us.