awful give us politics one ah, ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross thought, we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle is the west sleep walking us all into world war 3. a chair looks like it continued nato expansion eastward, massive military aid for ukraine's and the drive to destroy russia's economy, all point to a direct military conflict with moscow. did anyone vote for this? ah,

cross talking the european war, i'm joined by my guess, ira flounders and jersey city. she is a co director of international action center in tasmania. we have had see he is a conflict consultant in a retired u. s. foreign service officer and in geneva we have alfred desires. he is a former you an independent expert, i'm international order and author of the upcoming book, countering mainstream narratives, fake news, fake law and fake freedom, or it crosses, rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciated. alfred, let me go to you 1st in in geneva. i, i everything i said in my introduction is true and i, i, and with the question, did anybody vote for this? because we seemed to be going in a direction, but you, there's no stopping, no one's putting the foot on the brake. most a disturbing of all, um, nato seems to have no interest in ending the conflict in ukraine. actually,

just the reverse. one of the reasons why this conflict came about and i have come across a wide array of opinions about it, which is perfectly fine. i open to debate, but it is, was nato expansion was one of the reasons why russia acted the way did. and now nato expansion is again on the agenda here. i'd like to point out to our viewers before february 24th rush, you said it would react with military technical reaction. that's still on the cards here. ok. the, the, the, the next, the necessity to have security in europe is not being discussed. is matter fact, it's being discarded. that's a long, long question from, for me. go ahead, alfred. well, george kennan, the father of the marshall plan, henry kissinger, jack mac's law, all worn about the dangers of expanding nato. now it is profoundly on bill craddick to have been merlin,

sweden as for membership in nato, without conducting a wide consultation of population because it does have consequences. making sure that the population understands the implications and then having a referendum i am both a citizen and a switch citizen. and here and switch and we just had 4 different referenda last sunday, sunday. the 15th of may. and i have not missed the single referendum since i'm a citizen. and back in 2002 even switched membership in the united nations. switzerland was not a member. we was broke the rope and a just made with somewhat more than a majority or something as important as joining a military organization,

the military organization. that if you know the judgment of the number, you don't know if you know the actual of the number of article 9 or the longer an agreement of 8 august 945. there's the concept over criminal organization. and buddha things. and the sweet realize that they are actually joining an organization that because of its history, all aggression war, crimes, crimes against humanity in your bus law. the dawn is done and rock in libya, syria, et cetera. very usually could be class in this special category of criminal. okay, let me, let me, let me, let me go to sarah and jersey city. i mean, not only is a nato expansion and the card still within when in sweden,

just in the last new cycle the american officials have said that ukraine does not even may not even have to go through a, a induction process. it could be just, we made a member of nato, which be breaking all of nato's own rules. i mean, you know, they come, they constantly talk about the rule of law and rules based order, but they break their own rules all the time. obviously ukraine has a territorial conflict with russia. ok, and so what they're doing is they're actually wanting be the, in fact they want the lines to go into all out with russia because ukraine and russia obviously have a military conflict. but no one is talking about this in a logical fashion in the west. go ahead, sarah. well, 1st of all, ukraine already is a de facto member care of nick, a u. s. command and military machine. that's really what it is,

and nato ukraine for a long time. has it's for gates have been involved in the war in iraq, in afghanistan, in all kinds of military war maneuvers and the, with thousands of nato trainers advisors as they're called in the ukraine. there was a equipment just pouring ins really since 2014 i didn't just begin. so as a de facto member not, not voted anywhere even by the member countries. ukraine is very much in nato, and it's the whole purpose of nato was to expand to the very borders of russia to threaten russia. that's been its purpose from day one. and it was the reason that it expanded, ever since the war in yugoslavia through the balkans, through the countries of eastern europe right to the borders. and it's the reason today without any vote, no democracy about it. the expansion of or the inclusion of finland

and sweden is being considered finland a country of a 5000000 people. right? pledge to neutrality since world war 2, who never paid the price for what they did in world war $2.00. if they pledged to remain neutral and we see that that's just gone by the board. so every step of the way, none of this is democratic for the countries involved. it's certainly not for here in the u. s. where the overwhelming or the majority of the people are against war, and biden hasn't delivered on any of the promises he made. you know, turn it, what are they unfortunately during the cold war, you know, stephen cohen, god bless his soul. we left this too soon because he was such a great thinker in great person actually to and you know, he prophesies that he said that the war was, would be inevitable with theirs. we continued nato expansion. and one of the great things he said is that during the cold war, which he chronicled very well, he said,

at least the western leadership put themselves in the shoes of the kremlin. you know, and so if let's put our feet in the shoes of the kremlin, right now there's a conflict then ukraine. one of the antecedents was nato expansion. and now to other countries. ben went and sweden want to join. i mean, the russians, obviously this is a, is a aggressive threat, but no one gives that angle in western media. go ahead, ted. here, i can't recall a campaign, a demon i'd ation as thorough knowing as the current one against russia in western media. and i want to, i want to take a minute and explain my position here. if i may, i was 26 years. the us diplomat. i spent more than half my career working with or at nato. so i'm intimately familiar with the institution and it's byways. and it's quirks. now, i'm a retired diplomat. i'm a great believer in winston churchill phrase that george saw as always, better than war war. and for that reason alone,

i do not condone rushes operations in ukraine, but given the level of provocation, especially the hypocrisy that nato is displayed. i certainly understand them. first, zelinski goes to the munich security conference in february and talks about rolling back ukraine's decision to get rid of nuclear weapons. second, despite the fact checks it appeared, western media us funded bio labs in ukraine are a reality and have been since the nunn lugar cooperative threat reduction program went into effect 30 years ago. now. 30 years ago, it might have made sense for nato, the us and western countries to help former soviet states like ukraine, to do away with this w. m. d stockpile. what those labs are still doing in operations 30 years later, beggars the imagination, you know, you know, what ukraine has done is they've had to ukraine russia the same exact excuse

the u. s. senate dallas used to invade iraq in 2003, which is w. m d counterproliferation. now point 3, there's an ongoing military humanitarian crisis and don bass has been for years now . people have been getting sheldon killed willy nilly without almost any reporting in the western media. but this is also the same exact excuse that nato used 999 yet to conduct over close to boat humanitarian intervention. so if it's good enough for bill clinton in 99, and it's good enough for w in 2003. why is it somehow good enough for president to exercise these same authorities in 2022? well, i mean, i'm glad to bring that up because alfred, i mean, we've, you know, with essentially, with these kind of low octane thinkers in the west. you know, i mean, they're all over the place, liz trust, you know, anthony blink and all of these people here, they would, they want to know they were on some kind of war footing. well,

the russians might actually take the same attitude as well. i mean, how is it that nancy pelosi can waltz around the center of kev during a military conflict with russia. ok, because the russians are not targeting it. they're not interested in it at all. but at one point they might go ahead alfred. well, you address the issue or a rules based international order you address blinkin and binding. now here it is. we have the united nations charter and one has made of what has the united states done. we have not only violated articles $1.00 and $2.00 of the charter. we violated the, there it over the charter, not only the letter, article 2 paragraph 3 of the charter requires that we negotiate in good faith right now has been negotiating, try to reach some sort of

a peaceful solution to redone by the problem. since the could cause against the democratically elected college and ukraine, which we call finance. but we know from victoria now age here shall be roget 88 years will see better or hankle and lindsey violate main agreement one and 2 systematically. and then in december, last putting up puts on the table to moderate trees, which are then dismissed by stolen bergen biden. and i have to jump in air. what we have to go to a hard breaking that's about hard break will continue our discussion of the european war state with our team. use the

the aah needs to come to the russians state full narrative. i've stayed as i'm turning the no santini, div fmla, and i can also send up with the group in 55 when. okay, so 9 is the final speed when else calls with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin movie up machine estate on russia for date and c, r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and pinterest and we put with

with their head there were 30 i spoke earlier, but weren't so for what are your thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new frontline towards that record that they call this area the greys own didn't like the really early from the of course, pretty me what that was, only mother easy to come with world for our sharper this is or village olivia dale door. so no one wants to that. similarly, washing done more than a 100. your other show berella like

noise through and where she is 2 or 3 or lennox on roku or blue shield metro. so she made a list of that. that'll hit somebody with video. leslie alicia, before he more scene prove here scott require throw your favorite with our trusted interval with one engine and causing any issue with ah, welcome back across like we're all things considered on peter la belcher manager were discussing the european war with

okay, let's go back to sarah, in jersey city, there seems to only be one gear in play here in this to move forward with a conflict. and what is so i find so very peculiar is number one. what is winning mean in this conflict? i mean, i don't even wanna even go down that path. i mean, i think these people have no idea the dangers that they're creating. number 2, even at this stage of the conflict that should have never happened in the 1st place . i, western public's or, and, and consumers are being affected. i think, you know, we've talked about on this program and the, the conflict in iraq and syria and libby and all that. well, that really didn't affect the western citizenry very, very much. this is beginning to really about pinch a lot of people here and there seems to be no easing down and even willing to sit down to talk. i mean, we update the, we have the french, the,

the italians and the german saying in a way we should talk about negotiations while pushing more war sanctions will. that's not how negotiations work. so it's a sarah, i mean this is why i'm so depressed and worried is that they think something is winnable. i don't know what that means because that could entail in elation of everyone. go ahead, sir. well, what does winning mean to us strategists and war planners? it really means candidate greg the relations, the trade relations, the economic exchanges between the e u, specially germany and russia. could they do this through war and the demand for sanctions? we shouldn't forget that by the promise nuclear war if, if the sanctions weren't voted, said it's world war 3 or it's sanctions. so from the very beginning, it's been how to break the economic relations and it has come back and hit with

a vengeance on the countries of the e. u. here in the u. s. globally, in terms of famine, literally in africa, when you have spiraling inflation, raises an energy cost. it is a war that has already reduced ukraine from the most prosperous country at the time of the division of the soviet union. the most prosperous of the republics to today, the poorest country in europe, and the war is now making of the e u. there really paying the price as they say, folks and britain have to choose between heating and eating. now, how has russia fought this war? they fought it very differently from the u. s. and the u. s. from day one, iraq afghanistan, anywhere in the world. they knock out the water, the sanitation sewage, the food warehouses, the entrance, all the communication systems, day one, and they advertise it, they push it,

the hospitals, the medical center, that's what's destroyed. that's not what's happened in the ukraine. there. the bakeries were still open in kiev internet. that's how world politicians from pelosi, you folks are all able to visit. jeff, isn't that unusual in a war? but russia is fighting us in a very different way, very much against the nazi fascists forces that have been organized right within the don, etc. so we should see the differences in how the wars fought, the aims in it and, and the u. s. aims are, which are to completely use ukraine as a pawn in order to ensnare russia in a war that they want to have you. and it's an interest and they are trying to reach a negotiated solution to end this war with the end of the nazi domination

and firing within east ukraine. you know, we can't tell what, you know, i guess the, you know, i agree with much of what sarah said, you mean the prize is actually had gemini in europe. that's it. because the ever since the end of the cold war will actually even during the cold war, and he kind of german soviet slash, russian reproach miles was something the washington always worried about. that's why they always have social democrats in germany. just like they have sergeant silks now in germany, but you know what, what is the price of europe? if there's productivity goes down, unemployment goes up, mean you a social infrastructure is destroyed. i mean, it's kind of a cheap 3rd prize ribbon, isn't it? i mean, just to have had gemini and to punish russia. well, russia look elsewhere. ok. it, right, rushes relate. existence doesn't, isn't dependent on its relationship with europe. go ahead. ted. peter,

you're being grossly unfair there. and you're asking me to sort of explain by nomics and mystery to me. i don't think it was capable of explaining what, what that man is up to other than printing money at lightspeed in the process. you can destroy europe's economy as well. and possibly, you know, from it maybe maybe his vision is, is smoking economic ruin from the atlantic to the urls and not sure. but seriously, we've got a situation where sweden is looking at abandoning its traditional you know, it's a distance from any war. it stands like switzerland as a non line country, even in europe. and it's, it's just, it's looking, it's throwing that away. finland has been neutral, aggressively neutral. ever since the end of world war 2, they're not stupid. they're right on the board with the soviet union. they wanted peace, they didn't want to be a part of a political military alliance. it's a lot more military political. and now, you know, in the current situation,

because we've got this focus on, you know, the democratic pure haven of ukraine, and never mind that it's, it's sending criminal enterprise and has been for a long time. you know, we're all going going hope for more, for no apparent reason, but for that matter, nato shouldn't exist. so yeah, you know, we're talking about expanding. that hasn't had a reason to exist since 991. yeah, i've always thought i found, you know, biden's policy, so a biking who ran the ukraine desk during the obama administration and where his son worked at barithium at the u. s. is sending money to people that paid people like his son. it's very kind of peculiar relationship. alford was obviously we were running out of time here is that nato really kind of pushing to see if they can test article 5. it seems like a game of chicken here. ok. and but, you know,

if they want to push article 5, so let's say something happens. you know, there's a missile system that the u. s. puts into finland. russia reacts, and then they have invoke article 5, and then they have their friends and turkey air on says i'm not involved in this. ok, then the entire myth of article 5 of the nato treaty is blown up your thoughts? well, i think that i also said there is no reason for natal nato and its claim of the full spectrum dominance is a crime against humanity in itself. it is a bright, incompatible with the un trotter article to power for all the charter through him. it's not only the use of force what it prohibited the rest of the use of force. and as coke trenches very correctly said on the 3rd of may,

may pose barking at the door of russian may actually provoke this tragedy. and that has been carried by the mainstream media made for media is complicit in this tragedy because they have been actually conducting propaganda for war and demonizing. the enemy, by the way, contrary to article 20 of the international covenant on civil and political rights that the united states and united kingdom and friends and germany are old party to okay. okay, let me, let me go to sarah here in jersey. see, sarah, i mean, on this program um from december 17th, all the way up to the conflict on february 24th, almost every single program i made on those 2 proposals that the russians had at one to nato one to the united states. and of course, we all know the reaction. now,

i mean, these are not good faith actors. i mean, those were good faith. you can call them ultimatums if you want. look fine. okay. but there was a point of reference. i mean, i did, i, you know, in and then you know, when i look at, you know, the, the, the, the, a, we have a call for a, a ceasefire by a defend secretary law lloyd austin. i mean, well, i wouldn't believe anything. i wouldn't believe i would, i would probably believe a used car salesman more than i would believe the defense secretary right now. i mean, this is really, it's almost impossible. even the wind is conflict out because you don't know who is it you who to talk to, and the people that you might talk to aren't good faith actors. this was done by the west. go ahead. this is about money, about super profits and everything else has flown out the window including bill back better in the us, 40000000000 dollars in the last congressional appropriation along with all the money. it was already flowing in 1000000000 here,

3000000000. they are so much of it goes missing, as we well know in every us war. literally, it's delivered on the tarmac and it's no longer there. now, what was the war meant to do along with the super profits that come from war? because the u. s. economy is 1st and foremost, based on war, on endless war, on super profits to the military industries. but it was also because german investment in russia was 10 times the u. s. investment in russia. their trade with russia. 10 times what us trade was, their german trade with the u. s. so how does the u. s. brake this, turn it around, smash and they are willing to smash the e. u. absolutely. who was both a competitor and an ally, and use the nato military machine to do it. so there, sir, let me, let me jump in here. i want to give to the last word here that i did. the cynic in

me says the pentagon in the military industrial complex, they need a replacement for the afghan griffith. and the ukraine is the substitute for the griff they lost in afghanistan, 40 seconds, go ahead. i absolutely agree, but i want to make one quick point about nato peter, which is that it does operate by consensus that may seem like just lip service. but is the fact that if entre wants to break consensus on, for example, sweden and finland joining the alliance, they can do so. and no one can shop well while we have the time to have the time hang on by the why. don't you think that everyone is just wants to make a deal? that's what he always wants. that's there. yeah, of course. let's make a deal and he's going to do one of the most favorite terms. you the most favorable term. he can buy extorting the whole alliance. okay, well, you know, extortion, blackmail, all the things that are associated with nato. here as all the time we have,

i want to take my guess in jersey, city, geneva, and intense media. and i want to think our viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. remember the rules, the the the for the moving the business. and you will be in the ready shoes on your medical graham. when you wrote, you got to really just such a group of concealing individuals such circle in with the different sit unemployed shop and you get thrown with them the probably and you're still live with you. i wish you the rules you're here that i think you history as you are

not the studies, just a bunch of stuff coming off on ok which which and it was just not posted sustainable moment because a new a divorce look useless. no, no, was the the guy know paula doesn't know as much as a jester. don't even me. other than the mucus, with these 1st opinion, finances, kamala, a. when i was shown thing wrong, when i'll just don't a whole new world. yes to safe out is the because the advocate and engagement, it was the trail went so many find themselves worlds apart. we used to look for common ground

with the men to god was signed. on february, the 12th 2015, it was meant to end military conflicts in ukraine between government forces and don bass militia groups. the agreement stipulated that both sides would withdraw heavy weapons to an equal distance from the contact line. this left several 100 settlements trapped between opposing forces. local civilians became unwitting witnesses to and victims off the continuing civil war. thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new front line. they call this area the greys owner.