ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross not we're all things considered, i'm peter lavelle is the west sleep walking us all into world war 3. it sure looks like it continued nato expansion eastward, massive military aid for ukraine's and the drive to destroy russia's economy, all point to a direct military conflict with moscow. did anyone vote for this cross

talking the european war. i'm joined by my guess. i were flounders and jersey city . she is a co director of international action center in tasmania. we have had see he is a conflict consulting in a retired u. s. foreign service officer and in geneva we have alfred desires. he is a former you an independent expert on international order and author of the upcoming book, countering mainstream narratives, fake news, fake law, and fake freedom or across oc rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciated. alfred, let me go to you 1st in in geneva. ah, i everything i said in my introduction is true and i, i end with the question. did anybody vote for this? because we seem to be going in a direction that you, there's no stopping, no one's putting the foot on the brake. most a disturbing of all, um, nato seems to have no interest in ending the conflict in ukraine. actually just the reverse. one of the reasons why this conflict came about and i have come across

a wide array of opinions about it, which is perfectly fine. i'm open to debate, but it is, was nato expansion was one of the reasons why russia acted the way did. and now nato expansion is again on the agenda here. i'd like to point out to our view, years before february 24th rush, you said it would react with military technical re a reaction that's still on the cards here. ok. the be the nest, the necessity to have security in europe is not being discussed. as matter of fact, it's being discarded as a long long question from for me, go ahead. alfred. well, jordan cannon, the father of the marshall plan, henry kissinger, jack mac law, all warn about the dangers of expanding nato. now it is profoundly on bill craddick to have been merlin, sweden asked for a membership in may without conducting a y consultation of

a population because it does have consequences. making sure that the population understands the implications and then having a referendum i am both a citizen and a switch citizen. and here and we just had 4 different referenda last sunday. somebody 15 may and i have not missed the symbol referendum since i'm a citizen. and back in 2002 even switched membership in the united nations. switzerland was not a member of the united states. it was put the rope and a just made with somewhat more than a majority or something as important as joining a military organization, the military organization. that if you know the judgment of the number,

you don't know if you know the fact you are the number one article 9 or the longer an agreement of 8 august 945. there's the concept over criminal organization and do the things. and the sweets realize that they are actually joining an organization that because of its history of aggression, war crimes, crimes against humanity in your law, the down is dining rock in the syria, et cetera. very easily could be class in this special category of criminal. let me, let me, let me go to sarah and jersey city. i mean, not only is nato expansion and the card still within when in sweden, just in the last new cycle the american officials have said that ukraine does not

even may not even have to go through a, a induction process. it could be just be made a member of nato, which be breaking all of nato's own rules. i mean, you know, they call, they constantly talk about the rule of law and rules based order, but they break their own rules all the time. obviously ukraine has a territorial conflict with russia. ok, and so what they're doing is they're actually wanting be there. the in fact they want the lines to go into all out with russia because ukraine and russia obviously have a military conflict. but no one is talking about this in a logical fashion in the west. go ahead, sarah. well, 1st of all, ukraine already is a de facto member care of nick, a u. s. command and military machine. that's really what it is, and nato ukraine for a long time. has it's for gates have been involved in the war in iraq,

in afghanistan, in all kinds of military war maneuvers and the, with thousands of nato trainers advisors as they're called in the ukraine. there was a equipment just pouring ends really, since 2014. i didn't just begin. so as a de facto member not, not voted anywhere even by the member countries. ukraine is very much in nato, and it's the whole purpose of nato was to expand to the very borders of russia to threaten russia. that's been its purpose from day one. and it was the reason that it expanded, ever since the war in yugoslavia through the balkans, through the countries of eastern europe right to the borders. and it's the reason today without any vote, no democracy about it. the expansion of or the inclusion of finland and sweden is being considered finland a country of a 5000000 people write

a pledge to neutrality since world war 2 who never pay the price for what they did in world war 2. if they pledge to remain neutral and we see that that's just gone by the board. so every step of the way, none of this is democratic for the countries involved. it's certainly not for here in the u. s. where the overwhelming or the majority of the people are against war and biden hasn't delivered on any of the promises he made. no turn it what are they unfortunately during the cold war? you know, steve cowen, god bless his soul and left his will too soon because he was such a great thinker in great person actually to and you know, he prophesies as he said, that the war was, would be inevitable. with theirs. we continued nato expansion and one of the great things he said is that during the cold war, which he chronicled very well, he said at least the western leadership put themselves in the shoes of the kremlin

. you know, and so if let's put the rest our feet in the shoes of the kremlin right now, there's a conflict in ukraine. one of the antecedents was nato expansion. and now to other countries. ben went in, sweden, want to join. i mean, the russians, obviously this is a, is a aggressive threat, but no one gives that angle in western media. go ahead 10 peers. i can't recall a campaign of demon ideation as thorough going as the current one against russia in western media. and i want to, i want to take a minute and explain my position here. if i may, i was 26 years. the us diplomat. i spend more than half my career working with or at nato. so i'm intimately familiar with the institution and it's byways. and it's quirks. now add to a retired diplomat. i'm a great believer in winston churchill phrase that george saw as always, better than war war. and for that reason alone, i do not condone russia's operations in ukraine,

but given the level of provocation, especially the hypocrisy that nato is displayed. i certainly understand them. first, zelinski goes the munich security conference in february and talks about rolling back ukraine's decision to get rid of nuclear weapons. second, despite the fact checks that have appeared, western media us funded bio labs in ukraine are a reality and have been since the nunn lugar cooperative threat reduction program went into effect 30 years ago. now. 30 years ago, it might have made sense for nato. the us and western countries to help former soviet states like ukraine, to do away with this w. m. d stockpile. but what those labs are still doing in operation 30 years later, beggars the imagination, you know, you know, what ukraine has done is they've had to ukraine the russia, the same exact excuse that the u. s. senate deadlines used to invade iraq in 2003,

which is w. m d counterproliferation. now point 3, there's an ongoing military humanitarian crisis and the bass has been for years now . people are beginning, sheldon killed willy nilly without almost any reporting in the western media. but this is also the same exact excuse that nato used 999 yet to conduct a world coast about humanitarian intervention. so if it's good enough for bill clinton and 99, and it's good enough for w in 2003. why isn't it's somehow good enough for president to exercise these same authorities in 2022? well, i mean, i'm glad to bring that up because alfred, i mean, we've, you know, with essentially, with these kind of low octane thinkers in the west. you know, i mean, they're all over the place, liz trust, you know, anthony blink and all of these people here, they would, they want to know they were on some kind of war footing. well, the russians might actually take the same attitude as well. i mean,

how is it that nancy pelosi can waltz around the center of care during a military conflict with russia. ok, because the russians are not targeting it. they're not interested in it at all. but at one point they might go ahead alfred. well, you address the issue of a rules based international order, you address blinkin and binding. now here it is, we have it, the united nations charter and one has made of done. what has the united states done? we have not only violated articles one on 2 of the charter we m i lated the spirit of the charter, not only the letter article 2 paragraph 3 of the charter requires that we negotiate in good faith right now. but it has been negotiating, try to reach on sort of a peaceful solution to the dumbass problem since the quota against the

democratically elected young coach and ukraine, which we call finance that we know from victoria moreland. now, 8 years of negotiating, 8 years of seeing better hankle and zalinski violate an immense agreement one and 2 systematically. and then in december, last for putting up puts on the table to moderate the trees, which are then dismissed by stolen berrigan biden. and i have to jump in here, well, we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion of the european war state with ah,

ah, since the break away but don't, it's people's republic was been ranging and done by ukrainian artillery. it's been showing civilian, townsend, mining villages. more. luckily dealing with ah, move forward. it was when it was on the video a little above the whole of the video floor boards 40 of those bullet one. 0, i wrong one. i just don't know any

yes to safe out disdain becomes the african and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah. so welcome back. across like were all things are considered on peter level to remind you were discussing the european war? ah ok, let's go back to sara. in jersey city. there seems only be one gear in play here in this to move forward with a conflict. and what is how i find so very peculiar is number one. what is winning

mean in this conflict? i mean, i don't even wanna even go down that path. i mean, i think these people have no idea of the dangers that they're creating. number 2, even at this stage of the conflict that should have never happened in the 1st place . i'm western publics are and, and consumers are being affected. i like, you know, we, we, we've talked about on this program really the conflict in iraq and syria and libby and all that. well, that really didn't affect the western citizenry very, very much. this is beginning to really a bomb pinch. a lot of people here and there seems to be no easing down and even willing to sit down to talk. i mean, we, apparently, we have the french, the, the italians and the germans are, you know, way we should talk about negotiations while pushing more war sanctions will. that's not how negotiations work. so as a sarah, i mean this is why i'm so depressed and worried is that they think something is

winnable. i don't know what that means because that could entail in iowa ation of everyone. go ahead, sir. well, what is winning mean to you as strategists and war planners? it really means can they break the relations, the trade relations? he economic exchanges between the e u, especially germany and russia. could they do this through war and the demand for sanctions? we shouldn't forget that biden promised nuclear war if, if the sanctions weren't voted, said it's world war 3 or it's sanctions. so from the very beginning, it's been how to break the economic relations and it has come back and hit with a vengeance on the countries of the e. u. here in the u. s. globally, in terms of famine, literally in africa, when you have spiraling inflation, raises an energy cost. it is

a war that has already reduced ukraine from the most prosperous country at the time of the division of the soviet union. the most prosperous of the republics to today, the poorest country in europe, and the war is now making of a you, they're really paying the price as a say, folks in britain have to choose between heating and eating. now, how has russia fought this war? they fought it very differently from the u. s. in the u. s. from day one, iraq afghanistan, anywhere in the world. they knock out the water, the sanitation sewage, the food warehouses, the entrance, all the communication systems, day one, and they advertise it, they push it out. the hospitals, the medical center, that's what's destroyed. that's not what's happened in the ukraine. there. the bakeries were still open in kiev internet. that's how world politicians from colo

see, you folks are all able to visit jeff, isn't that unusual in a war? but russia is fighting us in a very different way, very much against, than not c, fascist forces that have been organized right within the don. it's so we should see the differences in how the wars fought, the aims in it and, and the u. s. aims are, which are to completely use ukraine as upon in order to ensnare russia in a war that they want to have you. and since it's in right interest and they are trying to reach a negotiated solution to end this war with the end of the nazi domination and firing within east ukraine, it would take care what, you know, i guess the, you know, i agree with much of what sarah said, you mean the prize is actually had gemini in europe, this it,

because the ever since the end of the cold war, well, actually, even during the cold war and he kind of german soviet flash russian reproach, mouths with something the washington always worried about. that's why they always have social democrats in germany, just like they have sergeant filter now in germany. but you know, what, what is the price of europe? if there's productivity goes down, unemployment goes up, mean you a social infrastructure is destroyed. i mean, it's kind of a cheap 3rd prize ribbon, isn't it? i mean, just to have had gemini and you punish russia. well, russia can look elsewhere. ok, it, right, rushes relate. existence doesn't, isn't dependent on its relationship with europe. go ahead. ted. peter, you're being grossly unfair there and you're asking me to sort of explain by nomics and it's a mystery to me. i don't think it was capable of explaining what, what that man is up to other than printing money at lightspeed in the process. he

can destroy europe's economy as well. and possibly, you know, maybe maybe his vision is, is smoking economic ruin from the atlantic to the urls. i'm not sure. but seriously, we've got a situation where sweeten is looking at abandoning its traditional you know, it's a distance from any war stance like switzerland as an online country, even in europe. and it's, it's just, it's looking, it's throwing that away. finland has been neutral, aggressively neutral, ever since the end of world war 2, they're not stupid. they were right on the border with the soviet union. they wanted peace. they didn't want to be any part of a political military alliance. it's a lot more military political and now in the current situation, because we've got this focus on, you know, the democratic pure haven of ukraine, and never mind that if it's any criminal enterprise and has been for a long time. you know, we're all going gone home for more for no apparent reason,

but for that matter native shouldn't exist. so yeah, you know, we're talking about expanding. that hasn't had a reason to exist since 991. yeah, i've always thought i found, you know, biden's policy. so a biden who ran the ukraine desk during the obama administration and where his son worked at barithium, the u. s. is sending money to people that paid people like his son. it's very kind of peculiar relationship outbreak was obviously we were running out of time here is that nato really kind of pushing to see if they can test article 5. i mean, it seems like a game of chicken here. ok. and but, you know, if they want to push article 5, so let's say something happens. you know, there's a missile system that the u. s. puts into finland. russia reacts, and then they invoke article 5, and then they have their friend in turkey. air on says,

i'm not involved in this. ok, then, the entire myth of article 5 of the nato treaty is blown up your thoughts? well, i think that i also said there is no reason for natal nato and its claim of the full spectrum domain. and it's a crime against humanity in itself. it is a bright, incompatible with the un trotter article tool power for all the charter prohibits not only the use of force what it prepares, the correct over use of force and as cope. frances very correctly said on the 3rd of may, nato's barking at the door of russian may actually provoke this tragedy. and that has been carried by the mainstream media. main for media is

complicit in this tragedy because they have been actually conducting propaganda for war and demonizing. the enemy, by the way, contrary to article 20 of the international covenant on civil and political rights that the united states and united kingdom and france and germany are all parties to ok. let me, let me go to sarah here. and here's the see, sarah. i mean, i'm this program from december 17th all the way up to the conflict on february 24th, almost every single program i made on those 2 proposals that the russians send out one to nato one to the united states. and of course, we all know the reaction. now, i mean, these are not good faith actors. i mean, those were good faith. you can call them ultimatums if you want. look fine. okay. but that was a point of reference. i mean, i didn't, i, you know, and then you know, when i look at, you know, the, the, the, the, we have

a call for a, a cease fire by defense secretary law lloyd austin. i mean, well, i wouldn't believe any, i wouldn't believe i would, but i would probably believe a used car salesman more than i would believe the defense secretary right now. i mean, this is really, it's almost impossible. even the wind is conflict out because you don't know who is it you who to talk to and the people that you might talk to are in good faith actors. this was done by the west. go ahead. this is about money, about super profits and everything else has flown out the window including bill back better in the us, 40000000000 dollars in the last, the congressional appropriation along with all the money. it was already flowing in 1000000000 here, 3000000000 there. so much of it goes missing, as we well know in every us war. literally, it's delivered on the tarmac and it's no longer there. now, what was the war meant to do along with the super profits that come from war?

because the u. s. economy is 1st and foremost, based on war, on endless war, on super profits to the military industries. but it was also because german investment in russia was 10 times the u. s. investment in russia. their trade with russia. 10 times what us trade was, their german trade with the u. s. so how does c u. s. break this? turn it around, smash and they are willing to smash the e, you absolutely. who is both a competitor and an ally and use the nato military machine to do it. so there, sir, let me, let me jump in here. i want to go. i want to give to the last word here that i did . the cynic in me says the pentagon in the military industrial complex, they need a replacement for the afghan griffith and, and the ukraine is the substitute for the griff, they lost in afghanistan,

40 seconds, go ahead. i absolutely agree, but i want to make one quick point about nato peter, which is that it does operate by consensus that may seem like just less service. but it is the fact that if entre wants to break consensus on, for example, sweden and finland joining the alliance, they can do so and no one can tell. well, well we have the time, ted. well i have the time. hang on by the why don't you think that everyone is just wants to make a deal? that's what he always. that's yeah, yeah, of course. let's make a deal and he's going to do one of the most favorite terms. you can the most favorable terms. he can buy extorting the whole alliance. ok, well, you know, extortion, blackmail. all these things are associated with nato here, as all the time we have, i want to take my guess in jersey, city, geneva, and intense media. and i want to make our viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. remember process rules the

me i oh, in the russian state. never. i've gone in the northland scheme again. the 55 been okay, so i need to be doing else because even though we will been in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state on russia, even our video agency, roughly all fans on mute with what she did with

the the for the business and you agree in the 3 and a rugby? not us shoes. i know mary comes, graham. we really just got to really is just such a group of concealing individuals such a circle. even with the difference until the chopped. we can get you thrown with them. the problem, just a little curious to hear that i think if history as to yours and i brought in that the studies of play stuff coming to enough to put it which, which and longer it was just posted just a moment because i knew

a diverse load you don't wish to know for the don't know if i should just giving you the best opinion here. come on. ah ah who it is do some is mr. well informed of the awesome new people from new york very well here. locally deal

with a new one with a little above the whole of the 3 little boys will give us one a since the break away of the donuts people's republic was being ranging and don't boss ukrainian. artillery it's been shelling civilian, townsend, mining villages, the little bench you're in there. joseph, when you so the sleep come out with lilly, if you on february the 24th 2022.