when so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look for common ground. ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross that we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle is the west sleep walking us all into world war 3. it sure looks like it continued nato expansion eastward, massive military aid for ukraine's and the drive to destroy russia's economy, all point to a direct military conflict with moscow that anyone vote for this. ah,

cross stocking the european war, i'm joined by my guess, ira flounders and jersey city. she is a co director of international action center in tasmania. we have had see he is a conflict consultant in a retired u. s. foreign service officer and in geneva we have alfred desires. he is a former you an independent expert on international order and author of the upcoming book, countering mainstream narratives, fake news, fake law, and fake freedom or a crosswalk rules in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciate it. oh alfred, let me go to you 1st in in geneva. ah, i everything i said in my introduction is true and i, i, and with the question, did anybody vote for this? because we seem to be going in a direction that you, there's no stopping, no one's putting the foot on the brake. most a disturbing of all, um, nato seems to have no interest in ending the conflict in ukraine's actually just the reverse. one of the reasons why this conflict came about and i have come across a wide array of opinions about it, which is perfectly fine. i'm open to debate,

but it is, was nato expansion was one of the reasons why russia acted the way did. and now nato expansion is again on the agenda here. i'd like to point out to our view, years before february 24th rush, you said it would react with military technical re a reaction that's still on the cards here. ok. the, the, the, the next, the necessity to have security in europe is not being discussed. is matter fact it's being discarded. that's a long, long question from. for me. go ahead. alfred. well, your dad can and the father of the marshall plan, henry kissinger, jack max law, all warning about the dangers of expanding nato. now it is profoundly on bill craddick to have been merlin, sweden as a membership in nato, without conducting

a wide consultation over population because it does have consequences. making sure that the population understands the implications and then having a referendum i am both a citizen and a switch citizen and here and switch and we just had 4 different referenda last sunday. so me to 15 all may and i have not missed the single referendum since i'm a citizen. and back in 2002 even switched membership in the united nations curriculum was not a member we was wrote and a just made with somewhat more than a majority. but something as important as joining a military organization, the military organization. that if you know the judgment of the number,

you don't know if you know the actual of the number of article 9 or the longer an agreement of 8 august 945. there's the concept over criminal organization and do the things and the suite realize that they are actually joining an organization that because of its history of aggression, war crimes, crimes against humanity. in your law, the don is dining rock in libya, syria, et cetera, very easily. could be class in this special category of criminal. okay, let me, let me, let me go to sarah and jersey city. i mean, not only is a nato expansion and the card still within when in sweden, just in the last new cycle the american officials have said that ukraine does not

even may not even have to go through a, a induction process. it could be just be made a member of nato, which be breaking all of nato's own rules. i mean, you know, they call, they constantly talk about the rule of law and rules based order, but they break their own rules all the time. obviously ukraine has a territorial conflict with russia. ok, and so what they're doing is they're actually wanting the, the, the, in fact they want the lines to go into all out with russia because ukraine and russia obviously have a military conflict. but no one is talking about this in a logical fashion in the west. go ahead, sarah. well, 1st of all, ukraine already is a de facto member care of nick, a u. s commanded military machine. that's really what it is. and nato ukraine for a long time. has it's for gates have been involved in the war in iraq, in afghanistan, in all kinds of military war maneuvers and the,

with thousands of nato trainers advisors as they're called in the ukraine. there was a equipment just pouring ins really since 2014 i didn't just begin. so as a de facto member not, not voted anywhere even by the member countries. ukraine is very much in nato, and it's the whole purpose of nato was to expand to the very borders of russia to threaten russia. that's been its purpose from day one. and it was the reason that it expanded, ever since the war in yugoslavia through the balkans, through the countries of eastern europe right to the borders. and it's the reason to day without any vote, no democracy about it. the expansion of or the inclusion of finland. and sweden is being considered finland a country of a 5000000 people, right? pledge to neutrality since world war 2,

who never paid the price for what they did in world war 2. if they pledged to remain neutral. and we see that that's just gone by the board. so every step of the way, none of this is democratic for the countries involved. it's certainly not for here in the u. s. where the overwhelming with a majority of the people are against war, and biden hasn't delivered on any of the promises he made. no turn any of it. what are they unfortunately during the cold war? you know steve cohen, god bless his soul and he left this too soon because he was such a great rom thinker and great person actually to and you know, he prophesies as he said, that the war was, would be inevitable. with theirs. we continued nato expansion and one of the great things he said, he said, during the cold war, which he chronicled very well, he said, at least the western leadership put themselves in the shoes of the kremlin. you know, and so if let's put the artist or feet in the shoes of the kremlin,

right now, there's a conflict then ukraine. one of the antecedents was nato expansion. and now to other countries been when in sweden want to join. i mean, the russians, obviously this is a, is a aggressive threat, but no one gives that angle in western media. go ahead, ted. here, i can't recall a campaign, a demon i'd ation as thorough knowing as the current one against russia in western media. and i want to, i want to take a minute and explain my position here. if i may, i was 26 years. the us diplomat. i spent more than half my career working with or at nato. so i'm intimately familiar with the institution and it's byways. and it's quirks. now add a retired diplomat. i'm a great believer in winston churchill phrase that george saw as always, better than war war. and for that reason alone, i do not condone rushes operations in ukraine, but given the level of provocation,

especially the hypocrisy that nato is displayed. i certainly understand them. first, zelinski goes the munich security conference in february and talks about rolling back ukraine's decision to get rid of nuclear weapons. second, despite all the back checks that have appeared, western media, us funded bio labs in ukraine are a reality and have been since the nunn lugar cooperative threat reduction program went into effect 30 years ago. now. 30 years ago, it might have made sense for nato. the us and western countries to help former soviet states like ukraine, to do away with this w. m. d stockpile. but what goes labs are still doing an operation 30 years later, beggars the imagination, you know, what ukraine has done is they've handed ukraine russia the same exact excuse the us and it del, i've used to invade iraq in 2003,

which is w. m d counter proliferation. now point 3, there's an ongoing military humanitarian crisis in the bass has been for years now . people have been getting sheldon killed willy nilly without almost any reporting in the western media. but this has also the same exact excuse that nato used in 1999 yet to conduct a war over coast about humanitarian intervention. so if it's good enough for bill clinton in 99 and it's good enough for w in 2003. why isn't it's somehow good enough for president couldn't exercise these same authorities in 2022. well, i mean, i'm glad to bring that up because alfred, i mean, we've, you know, with essentially, with these kind of low octane thinkers in the west. you know, i mean, they're all over the place, liz trust, you know, anthony blink and all of these people here, they would, they want to know they were on some kind of war footing. well, the russians might actually take the same attitude as well. i mean, how is it that nancy pelosi can waltz around the center of care during

a military conflict with russia. ok, because the russians are not targeting it. they're not interested in it at all. but at one point they might go ahead alfred. well, you address the issue or rules based international order, you address blinkin and binding. now here it is, we have it the united nations charter and want has made those on what has the united states done. we have not only violated articles $1.00 and $2.00 of the charter. we violated the, there it over the charter, not only the letter, article 2 paragraph 3 of the charter requires that we negotiate in good faith right now has been negotiating, try to reach some sort of a peaceful solution to redone by the problem. since the good against the democratically elected call, which in ukraine,

which we call finance. but we know from the gloria neurons now age here shall be roget 88 years old. seen better or hankle and lindsey violate main agreement one and 2 systematic. and then in december, last putting up puts on the table to moderate trees, which are then dismissed by stolen burgundy, biden. and i have to jump in here. we have to go to a hard breaking after that hard break will continue our discussion of the european war state was our team use the the

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a welcome across. like were all things considered on payroll? about reminder we're discussing the european war. ah okay, let's go back to sarah in jersey city. there seems to only be one gear in play here in this to move forward with a conflict. and what is how i find so very peculiar is number one. what is winning mean in this conflict? i mean, i don't even wanna even go down that path. i mean, i think these people have no idea of the dangers that they're creating. number 2, even at this stage of the conflict that should have never happened in the 1st place . i'm western publics are and, and consumers are being affected. i like to, you know, we, we,

we've talked about on this program really the conflict in iraq and syria, and libby and all that was, that really didn't affect the western citizenry very, very much. this is beginning to really a bomb pinch, a lot of people here and there seems to be no easing down and even willing to sit down to talk. i mean, we, apparently we have the french, the, the italians and the german saying in a way we should talk about negotiations while pushing more of war sanctions. well, that's not how negotiations work. so as a sarah, i mean this is why i'm so depressed and worried is that they think something is winnable. i don't know what that means because that could entail in iowa ation of every one. go ahead, sir. well, what does winning mean to you? as strategists and war planners, it really means can they break the relations, the trade relations, the economic exchanges between the u, especially germany and russia, could they do this through war and the,

the demand for sanctions? we shouldn't forget that biden promised nuclear war if, if the sanctions weren't voted, said it's world war 3 or it's sanctions. so from the very beginning, it's been how to break the economic relations and it has come back and hit with a vengeance on the countries of the e. u. here in the u. s. globally, in terms of famine, literally in africa, when you have spiraling inflation, raises an energy cost. it is a war that has already reduced ukraine from the most prosperous country at the time of the division of the soviet union. the most prosperous of the republics to today, the poorest country in europe, and the war is now making of the e u. there really paying the price as they say, folks in britain have to choose between heating and eating. now,

how has russia fought this war? they fought it very differently from the u. s. in the u. s. from day one, iraq afghanistan, anywhere in the world. they knock out the water, the sanitation sewage, the food warehouses, the entrance, all the communication systems, day one and they advertise it, they push it out the. * hospitals, the medical center, that's what's destroyed. that's not what's happened in the ukraine. they're the bakeries were still open in kiev internet. that's how world politicians from pelosi, you folks are all able to visit jeff, isn't that unusual in a war? but russia is fighting us in a very different way, very much against the nazi fascists forces that have been organized right within the don, etc. so we should see the differences in how the wars fought,

the aims in it and, and the u. s. aims are, which are to completely use ukraine as upon in order to ensnare russia in a war that they want to have you and it's in interest. and they are trying to reach a negotiated solution to end this war with the end of the nazi domination and firing within east ukraine. it would take care what, you know, i guess the, you know, i agree with much of what sarah said, you mean the prize is actually had gemini in europe, this, it, because the ever since the end of the cold war, well actually, even during the cold war and he kind of german soviet slash, russian reproach. miles was something the washington always worried about. that's why they always have social democrats in germany, just like they have sergeant filter now in germany. but you know, what, what is the price of europe? if there's productivity goes down, unemployment goes up, mean you

a social infrastructure is destroyed. i mean, it's kind of a cheap 3rd prize ribbon, isn't it? i mean, just to have had gemini and to punish russia. well, russia can look elsewhere. ok, it, right, rushes relate. existence doesn't, isn't dependent on its relationship with europe. go ahead. ted. peter, you're being grossly unfair there and you're asking me to sort of explain by nomics and it's a mystery to me. i don't know if anyone is capable of explaining what, what that man is up to you other than printing money at lightspeed in the process. he can destroy europe's economy as well. and possibly, you know, from it maybe maybe his vision is, is smoking economic ruin from the atlantic to the urls? i'm not sure. but seriously, we've got a situation where sweden is looking at abandoning its traditional you know, it's a distance from any war stance like switzerland as a non line country,

even in europe. and it's just, it's looking, it's throwing that away. finland has been neutral, aggressively neutral, ever since the end of world war 2, they're not stupid. they're right on the border with the soviet union. they wanted peace. they didn't want to be any part of a political military alliance. it's a lot more military political. and now, you know, in the current situation, because we've got this focus on, you know, the democratic pure haven of ukraine. never mind that it's a semi criminal enterprise and has been for a long time. you know, we're all going, don't hope for war for no apparent reason, but for that matter, nato shouldn't exist. so yeah, you know, we're talking about the expanding that hasn't had a reason to exist since 991. yeah, i've always thought i found, you know, biden's, policy so abiding, who ran the ukraine desk during the obama administration and where his son worked at barithium. the u. s. is sending money to people that paid people like his

son. it's very kind of peculiar relationship outright. well, obviously we're running out of time. here is a nato really kind of pushing to see if they can test article 5. i mean, it seems like a game of chicken here. ok. and but, you know, if they want to push article 5, so let's say something happens. you know, there's a missile system that the u. s. puts into finland. russia reacts, and then they have invoke article 5, and then they have their friend in turkey. air on says, i'm not involved in this. ok then, the entire midst of article 5 of the nato treaty is blown up your thoughts? well, i think that i also said there is no racial battle for natal nato. and its claim of full spectrum dominance is a crime against humanity in itself. it is a bright,

incompatible with the un charter article to power for all the charter prohibits not only the use of force what it prohibited the correct or the use of force. and as coke, frances very correctly said on the 3rd of may, may pose barking at the door of russian may actually provoke this tragedy. and that has been carried by the mainstream media made for media is complicit in this tragedy because they have been actually conducting propaganda for war and demonizing. the enemy, by the way, contrary to article 20 of the international covenant on civil and political rights that the united states and united kingdom and france and germany are all parties to

ok. let me, let me go to sarah here and jersey see there. i mean, i'm this program from december 17th all the way up to the conflict on february 24th, almost every single program i made on those 2 proposals that the russians had at one to nato went to the united states. and of course, we all know the reaction. now, i mean, these are not good faith actors. i mean those were a good faith. you can call them ultimatums if you want. look fine. okay, but that was a point of reference. i mean, i didn't, i, you know, and then you know, when i look at, you know, the, the, the, the, we have a call for a, a cease fire by defense secretary law lloyd austin. i mean, well, i wouldn't believe anything. i wouldn't believe i would. i would probably believe a used car salesman more than i would believe the defense secretary right now. i mean, this is really, it's almost impossible. even the wind is conflict out because you don't know who is it you to talk to and the people that you might talk to are in good faith actors. this was done by the west. go ahead. this is about money,

about super profits and everything else has flown out the window including bill back better in the us, 40000000000 dollars in the last, the congressional appropriation along with all the money. it was already flowing in 1000000000 here, 3000000000 there. so much of it goes missing, as we well know in every us war. literally, it's delivered on the tarmac and it's no longer there. now, what was the war meant to do along with the super profits that come from war? because the u. s. economy is 1st and foremost, based on war, on endless war, on super profits to the military industries. but it was also because german investment in russia was 10 times the u. s. investment in russia. their trade with russia. 10 times what us trade was,

their german trade with the u. s. so how does c u. s. break this? turn it around, smash and they are willing to smash the e. u. absolutely. who was both a competitor and an ally and use the nato military machine to do it. so there certainly when we live age, i've been here, i want to give to the last word here that i'm, that the cynic in me says, the pentagon and in the military industrial complex. they need a replacement for the afghan griffith. and the ukraine is the substitute for the griff they lost in afghanistan, 40 seconds, go ahead. i absolutely agree, but i want to make one quick point about nato peter, which is that it does operate by consensus that may seem like just lip service. but it is a fact that if on korea wants to break consensus on, for example, sweden and finland joining the alliance, they can do so and no one can stop ebay. ted. wow, wow, we have the time, ted. well,

i have the time. hang on by that. why was it we have the don't you think that everyone is just wants to make a deal? that's what he always does. that's it. yeah, of course. let's make a deal and he's going to do one of the most favorite terms. he can the most favorable terms. he can buy extorting the whole alliance. ok, well, you know, extortion, blackmail it. all these things are associated with nato. here as all the time we have our, i want to thank my guess in jersey city, geneva, an intense media, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c a next time. remember crosstalk rules ah with thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new frontline trajectory for that they call this area the gray zone.

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one a gentleman other than you should me. oh no one else seemed wrong. when all just a safe out. this thing becomes the advocate and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. with

the turkey has reportedly blocks finland and sweden from joining nato off the nordic countries handed in the official applications, conqueror demands the $140.00 calls terrorist group. tom hop in my house. think he and stock, ah, almost a 1000 ukrainian troops have surrendered at the as of south factory in the dorm by city of mario pope with captured neo nazis from the hours of battalion due to stand trial for war cries, ah, the u. s. e is, is some of its sanctions against venezuela's energy sector as washington 60 secure additional oil imposed to fight its long run and differences with caracas. plus u. k. officials suggest.