a nurse to me as priscilla. mamma cooked us. gosh, said chris, suddenly. tim cut the rope to his ashley of dc. wanted vertical pieces goes down to the wonder thief, but of course jason did, admitted but not, not looking for the chima crimes to network for phones, the dr. subsidy governor week i heard that voice id. i see a lisa residential. l grain lisa ah, ah ah, ah ah.

hello and welcome to crosstalk, where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the west drive to weaken in isolate russia is not working out all about well. russia, the most sanctioned country in the world, has an economy that is now stable and resilient. the west can't say the same for it's economies. in fact, the west is weakening and isolating it self. ah cross stocking economic blowback. i'm joined by my guess, philip, you're all the in personnel. he is the executive director of the council for the national interest and a former cia counter terrorism specialist in minneapolis. we have stephen e barb. he is a political analyst. and in paris we cross to john, rick mall. he is a political commentator. all right, gentlemen, cross sock rose in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. i always appreciate phil. let me go to you 1st here. that big,

$40000000000.00 aid bill is about to go through congress. and that's it. that's not even, i think we've, we, if we all added up with the $40000000000.00, it's like $53000000000.00. but at the same time, i don't have a whole lot of respect for politicians, particularly in the west, but congress been chip roy said he kind of asked the, the, the most obvious question. i'm wondering when we voted to go to war. so, i mean, what is the objective here? i mean, what, you print all this money, which the u. s. certainly could use to border, for example. so what is the objective? congress is so determined to help you crane towards what end do you now go ahead? well, i don't know to me, i'm mystified as to what is really going through the heads of our elected leaders in terms of what the net gain for the united states is from all of this our suffering by virtue of the fact that it is $40000000000.00 this $50000000000.00

does not really exist and it's just point being printed up. we're suffering from inflation, we're suffering her shortages of critical goods on the economy is in bad shape. i think everyone agrees on that. and also the europeans are taking a beating in terms of energy ha, itself and also in terms of a number of products that are vital for their economy. so it took it to lose lose kind of situation for those who are going after russian. i think the simple answer is what lloyd austin said was, this was, this is all about weakening russia. i'm not sure what that means, but that's what he said. and that must be what they're thinking was on they were in europe has been mentioned here. i mean, it seems to me with the, the u. s. in the u. k. are poised to do everything they can as

a lloyd austin said we can russia, does i mean, destroying the european economy in the process? because it certainly looks that way to me. i am absolutely bewildered that european leaders are making the choices that they are, the productivity of europe is going to be smothered. and then what is the value of the, the european economy if it isn't allowed to run at full speed, particularly coming out of this pandemic go ahead in paris. yes, yes, a company gig, hey, would you have gus? and since i had an idea on the, on the hub in here. busy i am wondering what we, you, hobbyists are doing in dismiss. you see, one way to put it is that there is this more imperative. we have to defend a bullet chain again, the bad russians have invaded them with no, for no reason whatsoever. well, 1st of all, if the sovereignty, the indignant just became sacrosanct. why was the sovereignty of serbia over kosovo, for garb in 1999 and ish kosovo,

the hi so so the termination on kain has that height weight on the population, least on the cane of that fight. so that the moral argument already collapses. the other he's and he collapses that we are taking sanctions against russia that we never ever consider taking against the united states for a hack. and of course, even more for afghan is than india where we actually collaborated. and for example, even my country, belgium's, and troops in those conflict, not very important. well of course. so the moral argument, i mean even now we could take sanction, again, saudi arabia because of you man. the extension again is read because of palestine. busy it's a present, so there is no moral argument whatsoever. it may sound. let me, let me stay with you here. you have a very valid points. i mean, in all of the conflicts that you've mentioned. but this conflict now that the european to become a co belligerent in it, is affecting consumers and voters,

all those other conflicts that you mentioned, you're absolutely right. there was no moral basis more. but there's a real, practical, pragmatic, physical financial impact on europeans. i won't, i mean by that, how does that, how does that apply in europe? i mean, it's against their own self interest. explain that to be there. i was going to come to that. they say you couldn't say that there is a practical reason to have all the sanctions against russia because russia tried to us. but that's not who i mean the whole project are eating 90. 1, of course, as being trained to be friendly with the west indian, they have been shot and the now we are going to make them even more at the, in the did by trying to cancel or, and go, jones. what are the nonsense we are doing now? the russians are convinced that we want to destroy them, which is not completely tube if they can understand why they believe that. and then we act. busy as you say, your says we are shifting, assessing the food, so the economy sanctions are not working,

they're working against us. so the practical argument deluxe is also so they have no argument whatsoever. but how does it work? she goes, i said why, what they just say now, and any of those are i wouldn't be invited to start with. and then you have in general there would be a whole blur about me being able to put it over, put in the stair in german. some of you understand booking, i mean it's just impossible to discuss well with them i'm. i'm very happy that i still have my program even though you tube is removed 17 years of my work, but i'm still going added here. stephen, let me go to you. what, what does ukraine mean to the average american? because, you know, i do say in contact with a small group of people that went through graduate school with and they're pretty smart people in their academics. they don't know squat about ukraine. they have no knowledge of the context whatsoever, and i have to admit, they think i'm a bit of a nut case because i talk about all of these details like the illegal who in 2014

in the, the war on the don bass for 8 years the minsk agreement, they have no idea what i'm talking about, steven? yeah, so i'm, i think peter were saying, you know what we saw in 2014, which, when asked, you know, where's the ukraine or crimea on a map that i'd, you know, nobody could find it in reality. indeed, americans know nothing that that's, that's a fact for the most part a, i would say at least 80 percent, if not a bit more of the, the sad thing as i am, you know, blogging on facebook sort of speak is so that same percent is buying hook, line, and sinker, every single report. and that's a failure. western media, you may recall at the very beginning of the conflict when the, the 2 republic seceded. there were a couple of western journalists on the other side, a couple, b, b, c, c,

and m. and they had some reporting that was not very favorable to the ukraine. and as i understand it within a day, all their reporting was they were video and that was taken down. and at this point in the west, the only the only exception to that peter is the right wang and fox news and tucker carlson by 2 to be very honest that that is not true. russian. no, it is actually, it's actually pro american the way i see it. ok. and then we are national interest . hey, let me go to let me go to phillip here, philip that the european union is proposing to pay 9500000000 euros to pay the ukraine government's bills, budget salaries, and all of that. and it's open ended. they can do whatever they want with it. i mean, those of us that know something about you. great, that is a, it's almost comical. i mean, that money is,

is going to simply disappear. and so why would zalinski in his orbit want this conflict ever to? and if their bills are going to be paid by the west, go ahead philip. well, for one thing does zalinski, i can't let this go on forever cushion run out of soldiers. but the fact is that what you say is actually correct. ukraine is by general consensus, the most corrupt country in your and also has the worst economy. this is why ran paul centered around fall has been holding up the money in the u. s . senate because he says basically there's no oversight, chris, this money is going to disappear, got a deep will go into a whole bunch of pockets, both the ukraine and in the united states. and of course he, the equivalency will be taking place in europe and the benefit that comes out of this is ural. it's, this is the most astonishing thing. i think any of us have seen 60 enormous pop

propaganda, victory and catastrophic foreign policy decision made when we invaded iraq. this is a, this is an incredible event. i think that every morning when i pick up of the newspapers as an informer intelligence, all right. i tend to look for sourcing for these stories, and this very often there is no source thing. it indicated. and in some cases, the sources, the ukrainian government, which is being advised, of course by us, neil con advisors and military personnel out of uniform. so it's a, you know, this is a disaster. this is a catastrophe in making. well, philip, if i can stay with you, i mean, when we're looking at this $40000000000.00, again, if you all added up, it's like $53000000000.00 it with all of a. so quote aid, i mean i, i suppose there's, it's going to be brew, good brigade, i after brigade,

after brigade of hunter biden's are going to show up in ukraine now. okay. because that's it. this is going to form of money laundering is what it is. okay? so i'm sure other, other for children of the beliefs will be signing up for the same kind of gig because it's very interesting. it seems like replacing of the grip about dentist and it's now going to ukraine. we philip, how do you feel about that? yeah, yeah, no action that's, that's absolutely and, and you better believe the 100 by you're already there. when we reinstated the embassy a couple weeks ago, they were the 1st wave. i mean, they were the marines landing on the, on the shore. so they're ready and there are no, they know how to do it, done it before. this is all a con job. the money's going to go to defense contractors in the u. s. is going to go to politicians and it's going to be stolen by the ukrainians. well that's, that's a prognosis. i haven't any of us that it know you crate and i've been there over

a dozen times. that's exactly how it works. ok. i unfortunately, members of congress don't have any idea about them, or maybe they do a maybe they do, maybe that's the joke on us. all right, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to what you're breaking up to that your break. we'll continue our discussion on economic blowback state with with ah, yes, motion of him when you thought about you. i mean you really about she was a little boy in a border with the my listen

look and you live muscles. if you look on the initial be white glove, not to get a dealer post on zillow while a diaz can used to put value a new with the origin. but he also still listed on those of your lewis a similar to like want to put that on the believe just was to build you would you what i see these teeny bosses no growth. you medation says this law to dodie gumbo sub ah, need to come to russian state to never. i've side as i'm phoning, northland scheme div, asking him then that can cause a group in 55 when. okay, so mine is proof. i'm speaking with we

will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machine restate on russia today and split our t sport mckibben, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest, and with me, ah, welcome back stock where all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing economic blowback with because go back on in paris, john, i you, in your 1st answer,

you talked about the moral imperative of western leads to do something, let's say iraq, afghanistan, all that. and we were fed all the propaganda here, but isn't there in a moral imperative for the european leadership to its own people? i mean, i look at, you know, i look at this going on through all every single country inflation. then you have some countries that have this huge immigration of ukrainians, which it's like a, it's all rosy for the beginning. but after a while it ends up being very, very expensive. a disruption of society in the u. k. they have food banks that are being pressured here. i mean, where's the moral imperative to take care of your own people? because i, for the life of me, i cannot understand the strategic economic, political value of ukraine to the european union. go ahead. neither do i. that's what i said, there is no particular reason either, but the more imperative, good, i mean is complete. the one say didn't know whether you one, but there is pressure from the media. is you speak of the full power with the full

power love them or try to get told it just keeps all democratic control. and i think politicians, even if they think otherwise, that is very hard for them to oppose. but i wanted to make a comment about this money laundering scheme that ukraine has become. there's one person in congress who said that is marjorie. hello, jane. ok. and i don't know very well, but they know that the neighborhood did, again, are considered as a. nevertheless, she said that exactly that against is 40000000000 and she was high. and what did the squad left of the democratic party vote for the vote? each other 40000000000. so we have a new version of values at the school. my point of view, some people like my age, remember the vietnam war, that the circle left as we go more, more warlike war, who than some of the right not the whole right. of course, but some of the right in europe, for example, in germany in particular. well, the more hopeful the gains agree found as is movement. the genes may have to move

into just the 4 sanctions that have destroyed the germany coming in careless about the german economy. i mean, that's unbelievable, but that's the way we are. c, a one. the one of those is that this is again, this up and i'm just the kind of the west, i mean, this new, i mean, this is a book which are from spangler, which i'm not supposed to like, but you see, this is a situation where he's not infection least one way to criticize it, to disperse. let me finish with one of them out. you know, everybody has been making fun of the slip of the tongue of george w bush when he's say that one of these, this one man put in the sides, unilaterally the invasion of iraq. i mean the chain. but what did he say before that the city hash out? there are new checks and balance in the us and in europe there are supposedly chicken balance was the efficiency of the checks and balance was the efficiency of a request. nothing, nothing like that at such a good point because they say they're doing it all the name of democracy as they

rode democracy in their own countries. it's, you're absolutely right on that. stephen, as i said in my introduction, the russian economy is recovered. i watch the roller coaster ride of the rouble. it's stable, it's actually more valuable now than it was before the sort of the conflict, obviously. and apparently they were prepared for all of the sanctions here. so and when you have the, you know, lindsey grams up the world you know that they know pollutant must be, we're take it out and all of this other rhetoric here, it's not working. so if it's not working, are they going to up the ante? i mean, i mean they're, they're looking very, very poor going to, it's going to stephen in minneapolis on that. go ahead stephen. i think certainly that to me this, this is more about history than hunter biden. and, and, but read a lot of history and this is just classic for centuries west against russia. and if we throw in their bismark, russia without the ukraine on that,

that kind of says a lot, i'm at this point, at least economically, the u. s. and the, and the rest of the e u, in any event seemed to be going as a russian to try, it would save a bunk there, they're going all in doubling down. i'm, i'm not quite so sure. be in the state of the russian economy. i, i certainly rubles doing well, well i'm a j. j. p. morgan came out with a desk note at the beginning of this week here, and i, and i will use the word resilient because they used the word brazilian. so i'm not an economist. i go to, i refer to people who are okay. obviously there are dislocations here. i'm not painting a rosy picture, keep going. yeah. yeah. yeah. so i, yeah, i'm not, i'm not arguing it's good shape. i think there's been a tragic now miscalculation right at when we remember obama saying we've ripped the russian economy to shreds. and you know,

i am over quite frequently. i'm shut down lately, but it's funny because i get a snapshot a couple times a year, way back then and, and the stores, you know, that the shells in the stores were fine restaurants, everything. absolutely fine. so from that perspective, i think they underestimated the whole movement in russia to insulate itself, you know, shutting down swift. it's a big deal. it's a big deal, but they play expecting that for years now. so i'm, however, i mean, it was even live. i'll have to tell you that, i mean, inflation is an issue that a lot of russians are having to deal with as well as everyone else in the world. or let me go to philip right now, phillips, i'm, you're an old hand. um, remember during the cold war, keep the ger, keep the germans down the russians out in the americans in. i guess it had nothing to do with fighting communism because it's as exactly what these neal cons, the unit party is doing in washington. the thing is,

the caveat is that we're supposed to be good for europe. it's not good for europe and it's actually bad for the west in general. go ahead philip. yeah, this is one of the great mysteries. you know, this is a, as i said before, i mean the most incredible con job because this whole thing is being sold on the basis of, of the, to a crunch word, you know, freedom and democracy. once you get below that level, you see that there is absolutely no reason for any of this happening. taken place and all that. this was a negotiable issue over a number of years. yes. that the west and the not pushed by the united states was, was not interested in negotiating. and does so, we have had this situation where it will be the american people, the europeans, will suffer more than the russians and her russia will not to go through regime change. so it's going to be named as endless conflict. as i said in the beginning

to weaken russia, whatever that is supposed to mean as a competitor, as a, as a force for a non american perspective of what the world is and should be. i don't really know . i talked to a lot of people, of the leftist or worse on this issue than are the conservative say has the people who are supposed to believe in all these abstractions are actually the ones who are pushing for stronger measures. i suppose they think that if there is a warrant, they or their children or grandchildren won't have to fight it, or get newt during it. but you know, that's a, that's a false perception, a couple of wrong steps. and all of this could go beyond the economy and into something to so much more horrific. well, because philip, because you were a ukraine is important to russia, but ukraine has no meaningful value to europe or the united states. this is what is

mystifying by all that, and you're absolutely right that it could have easily been avoid very easily avoided after the december 17th. when the 2 ultimatums were sent out at all, i talked about for 3 months and i kept saying it's going to happen. it's going to happen. we have to avoid this. and you know, i was unfortunately, right. john, let me go to you in paris. i mean, at what future historians are going to wonder why the european sold themselves out to the americans. because sir, i mean, the energy issues are global, hurts the united states. but it, it, it, it damages europe beyond repair. in many ways, i mean, how do you explain that this is a total edge that europe is playing along with? it's mystifying to me go ahead in paris, and that's to that. is he going back to the u. s. and the canada? there is an intense, irrational element which i actually do with berkeley to descendants of emigres from the russian empire is true and sent. you know,

your question of their accounts rather, go down further, whatever. oh, great can parents? i mean they can be people talk about the countries from poland, from the train and jews. it's not avoid saying that to be honest in training cannot . busy for example, do kings are very important and the king and love be pushing christina, know if they're there, deputy prime minister. yes. of closing the years. i don't need to explain anything . fig knows that better than i do. and the, in your hope we have the same situation. and then because of the morning, the mediation that these people exert by, say, are, you know, put in books. i mean, it's, no, it's impossible to collect. and she said, she said, i think that everything is actually got hurried to the left. it is, there's no interest in 6 or my companies. and in fact, the losing the whole new, for example, has lost a lot of money. the fringe banks have lots of money and they don't,

they can't do anything because of the major a hulu. good, you know, against the russians. but you see, i think also one should say that ever since 2014, it has been completely of use. that the only way to solve this problem in a can, would be taught legacy. the ease of a chain demanded a dollar me and there were hides and they should have gotten it. they didn't get it now they just don't want to hear about the chain after now. trained as lost the east, there's lost the premier there to last year. so that's a plan, maybe there we lose more, the position of the king and government is still that they want to get back everything including train year. but to get back that year been shouting within bridge on a day. it was amazing here. right? you're right, but where does that come from? because a month ago in this them bull that look like there was some kind of movement here. and then it was boris johnson, the american administration said, no, it would, you, if you do not negotiate and that is the problem here because the other say was

young here. the problem is, is that the west doesn't want a negotiated end here. and that is what's really troubling because the only alternative is more conflict last 30 seconds. go to you. just go ahead in paris. where fresh from there the feeling of gandy stand there. yes. things are going doing against russia to do chain. that's good. like, i don't, i am stephen, i'll give you a last 20 seconds here. are the american people prepared for war with russia? i don't believe they're prepared for war. but i, i do believe that, you know, yes, we have inflation. we had some shortages that kind of stuff, but on this financial stuff, you know that they're down for it. unfortunately, i bet, and it's gonna keep going. and at this point, we're not talking 40 billing. we're talking peter. well, over a trillion over the last 68 years. well i'll, i'll, and on this the, the word on capital hill is they 3 trillion. and that's really amazing. besides

just replacing the afghan grip, it's no coincidence in my mind, gentlemen, that's all the time we have many thanks to my guest in personnel, minneapolis and in paris. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross knuckles. ah ah, i see no one else so think wrong when old fools just don't hold any rules yet to see proud disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail.

when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground with industry to restock and just look up for literally a muscle around noon. she doesn't being in the green shield on a nice to me just place you mom with his ashley. uh, this one, it was a duplicate piece, it goes down to company one to move please this sort of cool position with you, but not, not looking for the chain of crimes in the world for phones or something like that . and then we go with that with

a, with us in the senate approve of sending $40000000000.00 in aid to ukraine. despite the objections of some lawmakers who say that there is a dire need to tackle america's own problems. first, this is the most advanced and haven't got the position of the next people, republics, forces. just outside of updates from over here, it's less than 500 meters to the positions of the ukrainian forces. of correspondent reports from the dawn by spot lines. where done? yes, forces resist the ukrainian army at strategic positions and.