an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves world's morn, we choose to look for common ground. ah ah

ah. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the west drive to weaken in isolate russia is not working out all about, well, russia, the most sanctioned country in the world has an economy that is now stable and resilient. the west can't say the same for its economies. in fact, the west is weakening and isolating it self ah cross sucking economic blow back. i'm joined by my guess, philip jer all day in personnel. he is the executive director of the council for the national interest and a former cia counter terrorism specialist in minneapolis. we have stephen e barb. he is a political analyst and in paris we cross to john brick mall. he is a political commentator. all right, gentlemen, cossack rules and effect, that means you can jump in any time you want. i always appreciate phil. let me go

to you 1st here. that big, $40000000000.00 aid bill was about to go through congress. i and that's it. that's not even, i think we, we, if we all added up with the $40000000000.00, it's like $53000000000.00. but at the same time, i don't have a whole lot of respect for politicians, particularly in the west, but congressman chip roy said he kind of asked the, the, the most obvious question. i'm wondering when we voted to go to war. so i mean, what is the objective here, i mean, but, but you print all this money, which the u. s. certainly could use i to border for example. um, so what is the objective of congress is so determined to help ukraine towards what end do you now go ahead? well, i don't know. to me, i'm mystified as to what is really going through the heads of our elected leaders in terms of what the net gain for the united states is from all of this our

suffering. by virtue of the fact that this $40000000000.00 this $50000000000.00 does not really exist, and it's just point being printed up. we're suffering from inflation, we're suffers shortages of critical goods from the economy is in bad shape. i think everyone agrees on that. and also the europeans are taking a beating in terms of energy ha, itself and also in terms of a number of products that are vital further economy. so it's a, it's a lose lose kind of situation for those who are going after russian. i think the simple answer is what lloyd austin said was, this was, this is all about weakening russia. i'm not sure what that means, but that's what he said. and that must be what their thinking was. i'm they were in europe has been mentioned here. i mean, it seems to me with the, the u. s. in the u. k. and poise to do everything they can as

a lloyd austin said we can russia because i mean, destroying the european economy in the process because it certainly looks that way to me. i am absolutely bewildered that european leaders are making the choices that they are, the productivity of europe is going to be smothered. and then what is the value of the, the european economy if it isn't allowed to run at full speed, particularly coming out of this pandemic go ahead in paris. yes, yes, a company gig, hey, would you have gus? and since i had an idea on the, on the you hoping. busy here i am wondering what we, you, hobbyists are doing in dismiss. you see one way to put it is that there is this morning. busy started, we have to defend a bully chain again. the bad. a sense of invaded them with no, for no reason whatsoever. well, 1st of all, if the sovereignty indian did, he just became sacrosanct. why was the sovereignty of serbia over kosovo at prague

harbor? 1999 and ish goes over to high, so say that their nation or cain has that height weight on the population, least on the cane of that fight. so that the moral argument already collapses, the other he's and he collapses, that we are taking sanctions against russia that we never ever consider taking against the united states for a hack. and of course, even more for afghan is than india where we actually collaborated and for example, even like counseling, belgium and hoops in, in those conflicts, not very important. well, of course, so the moral argument, i mean, even now we could take sanction, again, saudi arabia because of you man, you could take sanction, again, israel, because of palestine. it's a presser. so there is no more. busy argument whatsoever, it or you could send me shot. let me, let me stay with you here. you have a very valid points. i mean, in all of the complex that you've mentioned with this conflict,

now that the europeans who become a co belligerent in it, is affecting consumers and voters, all those other complex that you mentioned, you're absolutely right. there was no moral basis more. but there's a real, practical, pragmatic, physical financial impact on europeans. i won't. i mean, how does that, how does that apply in europe? i mean, it's against their own self interest. explain that to be there. i was going to come to that. they say you could say, that's a so practical reason to have all the sanctions against russia because russia tried to us, but that's not to, i mean, the whole trajectory since 91, of course, has been trying to be friendly with the western indian. they have been shot, and the now we are going to make them even more at the, in the did by trying to cancel or, and go, jones. what are the nonsense we are doing now? the 1st and 2nd things that we want to destroy them. we just not completely tube, they can understand way they believe that and then we act. busy as you say,

your says we are shifting a says in the food, so the economy sanctions are not working their work against us. so the practical argument perhaps is also so they have more argument whatsoever. but how does it work? she goes, i said why, what they just say now and any of us are, i wouldn't be invited to start with. and then you have in general there would be a whole blur about me being the agent, to put it over putting the stare in german. some of you understand booking, i mean it's just impossible to discuss well with them i'm. i'm very happy that i still have my program even though you tube is removed 17 years of my work, but i'm still going added here. stephen, let me go to you. what, what does ukraine mean to the average american? because, you know, i do say in contact with a small group of people that went through graduate school with and they're pretty smart people in their academics. they don't know squat about ukraine. they have no knowledge of the context whatsoever, and i have to admit, they think i'm a bit of a nut case because i talk about all of these details like the legal,

coo and 2014 in the, the war on the don bass for 8 years the minsk agreement, they have no idea what i'm talking about, steven? yeah, so i'm, i think peter were saying, you know what we saw in 2014, which when asked, you know, where's the ukraine or crimea on our map? i'd, you know, nobody could find it in reality. indeed, americans know nothing that that's, that's a fact for the most part a, i would say at least 80 percent, if not a bit more on the, the sad thing as i am, you know, blogging on facebook sort of speak is so that same percent is buying hook, line, and sinker, every single report. and that's of failure. western media, you may recall at the very beginning of the conflict when the, the 2 republic seceded. there were

a couple of western journalists on the other side, a couple, b, b, c, cnn. and they had some reporting that was not very favorable to the ukraine. and as i understand it, within a day, all their reporting was they were video and that was taken down. and at this point in the west, the only the only exception to that peter is the right wang and fox news and tucker carlson. but to be very honest that that is not true. russian. no, it is actually, it's actually pro american the way i see it. ok, and now we're national interest. hey, let me go to let me go to philip philip that the european union is proposing to pay 9500000000 euros to pay the ukraine government's bills, budget salaries, and all of that. and it's open ended. they can do whatever they want with it. i mean, those of us that know something about you, great, that is a,

it's almost comical. i mean that money is, it's going to simply disappear. and so why would zelinski in his orbit want this conflict ever to? and if their bills are going to be paid by the west, go ahead philip. well, for one thing, good zalinski, i can't let this go on forever cuz he'll run out of soldiers. but the fact is that what you say is actually correct. ukraine is by general consensus, the most corrupt country in europe, and also has the worst economy. this is why rand paul centered around fall, has been holding up the money in the u. s. senate because he says basically there's no oversight, chris, this money is gonna disappear, got a deep will go into a whole bunch of pockets, both the ukraine and in the united states. and of course he, the equivalency will be taking place in your and the benefit that comes out of this

is ural. it's, this is the most astonishing thing. i think any of us have seen 60 enormous pop propaganda, victory and catastrophic foreign policy decision made when we invaded iraq. this is a, this is an incredible event. i think that every morning when i pick up of the newspapers as an informer, intelligence officer i, i tend to look for sourcing for these stories. and this very often there is no source thing. it indicated. and in some cases, the source is the ukrainian government, which is being advised, of course, by us, neil con advisors and military personnel out of uniform. so it's a, you know, this is a disaster. this is a catastrophe in making. well, philip, if i can stay with you, i mean, when we're looking at this $40000000000.00, again, if you all added up, it's like $53000000000.00 it with all of a. so quote aid,

i mean i, i suppose there's, it's going to be bird. good brigade, i after brigade, after brigade of hunter biden's are going to show up in ukraine now. okay. because that's it. this is going to form of money laundering is what it is. okay, so i'm sure other, other for children of the beliefs will be signing up for the same kind of gig because it's very interesting. it seems like replacing of the grip about dentist and is now going to ukraine. philip, how do you feel about that? yeah, yeah, no, i should. that's. that's absolutely. and, and you better believe the hunter ride, you're already there. when we reinstated the embassy a couple weeks ago, they were the 1st wave. i mean, they were the marines landing on the, on the shore. and they're ready and they, they know they know how to do it, done it before. this is all a con job. the money's going to go to defense contractors in the u. s. is going to go to politicians and it's going to be stolen by the ukrainians. well that's,

that's a prognosis. i haven't any of us. that it? no ukraine and i've been there over a dozen times. that's exactly how it works. okay. i unfortunately, members of congress don't have any idea about them, or maybe they do a maybe they do, maybe that's the joke on us. all right, i'm going to jump in here. we're getting into a short break. and after the break, we'll continue our discussion on economic blowback state. ah ah ah

ah ah, come to russian state to narrative and ignore some scheme, devastation american house southland maybe within the 50000 to speedo keys on that is 2000 speedy. when you get back with, we will fan in the european union, the kremlin media machine. the state aren't russia today, and split ortiz food next. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube, tend to push indicative even twist with

ah, welcome back across stock, were all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you were discussing economic blowback. ah okay, go back to shannon in paris. john, i you, in your 1st answer, you talked about the moral imperative of western leads to do something, let's say iraq, afghanistan, all that. and we were fed all the propaganda here, but isn't there, and i'm in a moral imperative for the european leadership to its own people. i mean, i look at, you know, i look at this going on through all every single country inflation. then you have some countries that have all this huge um immigration of ukrainians, which it's like a, it's all rosy for the beginning. but after a while it's being ends up being very, very expensive. a disruption of society in the u. k. they have food banks that are

being pressured here. i mean, where's the moral imperative to take care of your own people? because i, for the life of me, i cannot understand the strategic economic, political, you with ukraine to the european union. go ahead. we need that. neither do i, that's what i say. there is no particular reason either. but the moral imperative, good, i mean, is complete. the one sided and you know whether you want, but there is pressure from the media. you see, you speak of the full power with the full power is not democratic at all. it just keeps all democratic control. and i think politicians, even if they think otherwise, it's very hard for them to oppose that i wanted to make a comment about this money laundering scheme that ukraine has become the one person in congress who said that is marjorie to clean ok. and i don't know very well, but i know that the liberal in that again, are considered us in that case. it's a top. nevertheless, she said that exactly that against the 40000000000 and she was high. and what did

the squire that the left of the democratic party vote for the vote for the 40000000000? so we have in version of values that is from my point of view, from people like my age, remember the vietnam war, that the so called left us become more and more was like, whoa, who than some of the right, not the whole right of course. but some of the right in europe, for example, in germany in particular. well, the more hope of all the green, the green found, is movement. the genes may have to move into just the 4 sanctions that we've described to germany come in care less about the german economy. i mean, that's unbelievable, but that's the way we are. you see, i one, the, one of those is that this is again, this abeline, this decline of the west. i mean, this new, i mean, this is a book which on a phone spangler, which i'm not supposed to go through like, but you see, this is a situation and he's not infection. there's no way to criticize it all to disperse . let me finish with one of the american. everybody has been making fun of the slip

of the tongue of george w bush. when you say that one of these, this one man who do decides you actually the invasion of iraq, i mean the chain. but what did he say before that he said in the hush of the lou checks and balance in the us and in europe, there are supposedly chicken balance. was the efficiency of the checks and by those was the efficiency of a request. nothing, nothing that hurt at such a good point because they say they're doing it all in the name of democracy as they rode democracy in their own countries. it's, you're absolutely right on that. stephen. as i said in my introduction, the russian economy is recovered. i watched the roller coaster ride of the rouble, it stable as actually more valuable now than it was before the start of the conflict. obviously. and apparently they were prepared for all of these sanctions here. so and when you have the, you know, lindsey grams of the world, you know that they know pollutant must be well, take it out and all of this other rhetoric here,

it's not working. so if it's not working, are they going to up the ante? i mean, i mean there was ones they're looking very, very full going to be. it's going to stephen in minneapolis on that. go ahead stephen. yeah, i think certainly to me this, this is more about history than hunter biden and read a lot of history. and this is just classic for centuries west against russia. and if we throw in there bismark, russia without the ukraine on, that, that kind of says a lot, at this point, at least economically, the u. s. and the, and the rest of the e. u, in any event seemed to be going as a russian to try, it would save a buck the they're going all in doubling down. i'm not quite so sure. be in the state of the russian economy. i, i certainly to roubles doing well well i, i, j. p. morgan came out with a desk note at the beginning of this week here,

and i, and i will use to word resilient because they used the word brazilian. so i'm not an economist. i go to, i refer to people who are okay. obviously there are dislocations here. i'm not painting a rosy picture, keep going. yeah. yeah. yeah. so i, yeah, i'm not, i'm not arguing it's good shape. i think there's been a tragic miscalculation right at when we remember obama saying we've ripped the russian economy to shreds. and you know, i am over quite frequently. i'm shut down lately, but it's funny because i get a snapshot a couple times a year, way back then and, and the stores, you know, that the shells in the stores were fine restaurants, everything. absolutely fine. so from that perspective, i think they underestimated the whole movement in russia to insulate itself, you know, shutting down swift. it's a big deal. it's a big deal, but they've been expecting that for years now. so however, i mean,

it was even live. i'll have to tell you that, i mean, inflation is an issue that a lot of russians are having to deal with as well as everyone else in the world are . let me go to philip right now, philip, i'm, you're an old hand. i remember during the cold war, keep the ger, keep the germans down the russians out in the americans in, i guess it had nothing to do with fighting communism because it's as exactly what these neo cons the una party is doing in washington. the thing is, the caveat is i was supposed to be good for europe. it's not good for europe and it's actually bad for the west in general. go ahead philip. yeah, this is one of the great mysteries. and this is, as i said before, i mean the most incredible con job because this whole thing is being sold on the basis of, of the 2 crunch words, you know, freedom and democracy. once you get below that level, you see that there is absolutely no reason for any of this happening. taken place

and all that. this was a negotiable issue over a number of years. yes. that the west and the not pushed by the united states was, was not interested in negotiating. and does so, we have had this situation where it will be the american people, the europeans, will suffer more than the russians and her russia will not to go through regime change. so it's going to be an endless, endless conflict. as i said in the beginning to weaken russia, whatever that is supposed to mean as a competitor, as a, as a force for a non american perspective of what the world is in should be. i don't really know. i talked to a lot of people, of the leftist or worse on this issue than are conservative say, has the people who are supposed to believe in all these abstractions are actually the ones who are pushing for stronger measures. i suppose they think that if

there's a warrant, they or their children or grandchildren won't have to fight it, or get newt during it. but you know, that's a, that's a false perception, a couple of wrong steps. and all of this could go beyond the economy and into something that's a much more horrific. well, in place, because philip, because you were a ukraine, is important to russia, but ukraine has no meaningful value to europe or the united states. this is what is mystifying by all that, and you're absolutely right that it could have easily been avoid very easily avoided after the december 17th when the 2 ultimatum to set out at all. i talked about for 3 months and i kept saying it's going to happen. it's going to happen. we have to avoid this. and you know, i was unfortunately, right. john, let me go to you in paris. i me, at what future stories are going to wonder why the european sold themselves out to the americans? because sir, i mean, the energy issues are global,

hurts the united states. but it, it, it, it damages europe beyond repair. in many ways, i mean, how do you explain that this is the total edge that europe is playing along with? it's mystifying to me go ahead in paris and that's true. but you see going back to the u. s. and canada, there is an, an intense, irrational element which i actually do with berkeley to descendants of any grades from the ocean empire is true and sent. you know, your question of their accounts or the drug down further, whatever. oh, great can parents? i mean, they can be people talking about the countries from poland on the train and jews. it's not avoid saying that to be honest, in a crate in canada for example, the king answer very important as you can and love be pushing canada. christina, know they're, they're deputy prime minister. yes. and of course in the years i don't need to explain anything fig. if it knows that better than i do, and in your hope,

we have the same situation. and then because of the modeling nation that these people exert by say, or yup, would invoke staff. i mean it's no, it's impossible to collect. and she said, she said, i think the chemical is actually got her to the left with no interest in some companies. and in fact, they are losing their hulu, for example, as lost a lot of money. the french banks have lost money and they don't, they can't do anything because of the major a hulu. good, you know, against the russians. but you see, i think also one should say that ever since 2014, it has been completely of use. that the only way to solve this problem in a can, would be to negotiate the ease of a chain, demanded a done on me and they were hide and they should have gotten it. they didn't get it now they just don't want to hear about ukraine after now. trained as lost the east

. there's lost the premier there last year. so that's a plan. maybe there we lose more. the position of the king and government is still that they want to get back everything including crimea, but to get back that year been shouted within bridge on a day. it was amazing here, right? you're right. but where does that come from? because a month ago and asked them bowl that looked like there was some kind of movement here. and then it was boris johnson. the american administration said, no, it would you, if you do not negotiate. and that is the problem here. because the other say was out there, the problem is, is that the west doesn't want a negotiated end here. and that is what's really troubling because the only alternative is more conflict last 30 seconds. go to you. just go ahead in paris where fresh from there if you have gandy. stand there. yes. things are going doing against russia to do chain as good. frank. thank you. i am steven. i'll give you the last 20 seconds. here are the american people prepared for war with russia. i don't believe they're prepared for war, but i do believe that, you know, yes,

we have inflation. we had some shortages that kind of stuff, but this financial stuff, you know, that they're down for it. unfortunately, a bit and it's going to keep going. and at this point, we're not talking 40000000000, we're talking peter. well, over a trillion over the last 68 years. well, and on this the, the word on capital hill is the 3 trillion, and that's really amazing. because that's just replacing the afghan grip. it's no coincidence in my mind, gentlemen. that's all the time we have many thanks to my get some personal minneapolis and in paris. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross like with for

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