the classes by account also demonstrated, attempted to break through police cordons and entered the government building opposition. parties have been staging valleys for weeks demanding the resignation of the country's prime minister, accusing him of mishandling negotiations over the disputed region of laguna kara back in the past. 35 years, armenia and azerbaijan, his sports too, was over the region, the last ending with a russian gro could seized by agreement. and he, thanks for joining us here and i'll see international you up today for now. but we'll be back in 30 minutes with well oh ah

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hello and welcome to cross lock. were all things considered? i'm peter labelle, the west ukraine propaganda machine has begun to crack. the reality in the battlefield is at odds with a tightly guarded messaging bed to western public's a few courageous voices say the obvious ukraine should negotiate. now while it still has something to negotiate with. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, glen deason and also is a professor at the university south eastern norway as well as other of the new book usa phobia propaganda in international politics. and here in moscow we have maxine switch off. he is the director of the center advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations are joining cross that rules and the fact that means you can jump any time you want and i would appreciate it. we'll

start out with our slo glen over the last few new cycles and i'm thinking of the new york times editorial piece that actually question the goals to the biding ministration has in ukraine and, and de facto nato's goals. the washington post a published an article about volunteers, not, not a regular army, but all in tiers in ukraine's. our military forces that are treated quite badly ended up leaving the field and being arrested for desertion. and then we have the big name of them all. henry kissinger at the davos setting and just basically saying, you've got to wrap this up quickly through negotiations or it's got a start unraveling for everyone in ball. so my question is to you, is it, is this going to have an impact on policy making or is it just double down triple down. ready well, i think there will be more and more opposition around the war, and it's not going ukraine's way. so obviously for a long time now, for many weeks,

ross has been grinding down the ukraine and army and. and then obviously russia has been making a lot of victories. however, in the past 34 weeks now, we see that things became very critical. the last time we spoke, i mentioned that the main key front lines in ukraine has collapsed. and now in circling this huge pocket thousands of thousands of ukraine and soldiers, so it's hard to ignore this. you can't really in the story and the more of extreme . so this is why this becoming a lot of pressure now on it within the west, on trying to find some kind of an agreement with russia because it makes the question, what is, what is the objective if we can't make settlement with russia? because if alternative is deal today or an even worse deal tomorrow for the west,

dictate that we would make a deal today. and given the fortunate group doesn't seem interested still have to make a deal in the question. is there an alternative objective in obviously there's been a lot of voices in washington from the administration suggesting that the goal is to break the back to weaken it. so that's many who is concerned at this mission is to create a new in your crime and tried to weaken the russian for, for, for the long, long period time. is this indeed a pro ukrainian policy, or was there ukrainian essentially sacrificing the country? that is, so i think that the official audio artificially position of being either pro russian or western for the question, what is the purpose of this now? i think this does this more than this voices are increasing and at some point,

i guess they will have some influence in washington in your account. so it is, it is a, something is changing to 2 refills, i think far away from a change in policy motion. you bring up a good point. how is this to the advantage of the trainings will match there? there is one element, one copy of that many in the ukranian political elite i would find is the positive is all this huge amounts of money being thrown at them from the west. i mean, now if we put all in, it's like $53000000000.00 from the united states, and then we have the european union. i don't know the exact numbers, but i mean they're going through but what $5.00 to $7000000000.00 a month to pay a salaries in the military and all that. i mean, if you're in your zalinski and you're in that circle, and this is in the middle of a conflict where they have foreign leaders waltzing around downtown, here without

a care. huh, that's it. that's what i call the grid. why wouldn't ukraine want to keep that griff going as long as it possibly can go ahead? well, i think right now on the west has to deal with 3 challenges kind of lumped together . one is the challenge of dealing with the leadership in g f per say. we're asking for more money and more military hardware. and i think there is this understanding that have started to trickle down among the minds of western beliefs that it's, it's really a black hole that is soaking up resources without clear implications for western public and western security and for western political objectives. the 2nd one is of course, and how you deal with russia, you know, kind of post conflict and seen this proposal coming from italy. and you know, we need to think about european security architecture while i personally think that

the very proposal is kind of the sheet that has sailed a much worse to where it still is interesting, sighing, very different. what we've seen over the past few weeks on the very thinking patterns amongst south western countries. and finally, you know, the western leadership has to deal with the implications of this conflict and confrontation with russia for their own domestic constituencies and globally. and it's getting harder to explain what are the clear objectives, you know, and you know, this massive price hike and stuff like this isn't really flying well with many constituents in the worst in u. s. in particular. and there is even some suggestions that emanuel micron may perhaps be the last of the current western leadership go for, got re elected. others maybe voted out of office quickly, which is the start difference from president to who i should remark to our audience

is, in my view, operate more in the paradigm of quote unquote history liter name, classic western politician. you know, he doesn't really have to care much about re election who doesn't really have to care much about the stuff that worship colleges have to care about. so this in a way empowers him to think that he can and that he has courage and wisdom. i agree with lately he's got it all there, but will he do it and everything we've seen about and so bar tells us he won't. ok, but i agree with it. let me go back to you in a, in a sense, this whole ukrainian gambit for, for the us in the u. k. because they seem to be an x is here driving this, both, both countries that are not in the european union interest singly enough and their unity of the, of, of europe. um, it is almost seamless for now. and that's why they need

a breakthrough to keep that unity together. along with this goes on even became governments emitted, there are losses in the east, they won't say specifically, but there are many, it's not going so well here. so i mean, if the, if the purpose was to unify the, the west, in the european sense around behind the u. s. and above and behind the u. k. as leaders of nato, they need, they need this breakthrough one way or another because of baby formula. energy crisis, migration, i mean, you can, you can keep the fever pitch out for a while emotionally, but now things are beginning to settle down. we're seeing, you know, reports in, in, in germany to check republic hungry poll and about my grades and things like that were in the welcome mat is not so welcoming as time goes on. so that, i mean that there's been a kind of a clinical breakthrough, but it isn't sustainable with out a quote when in ukraine. well, no,

i think that was the problem. i think this, the unity of nato, which we heard so much about the premise on, on the victory over russia was seeing the battle field played out. and they can only cor, against russia as expect. indeed that there's a huge effect. there were european economy. and now suffering greatly, and, you know, this whole story of russia being the gas station, the masquerading as a country. this is, this is, i think we, we've received ourselves from the west by my buying incidents. so i think that the, again, that goes on on a mixture. but now that this doesn't seem to be the case anymore, i think you will see a fragment more because now we're looking at how the costs are affecting us. and also we're paying higher costs and, and if there's no clear objective behind this. and i mentioned that if the status

and britain is too well, maybe you know, this last, you know, we've got sacrifice thousands of ukrainian soldiers there. but at least by some time, to train up a new army in west in ukraine and have this wave of the continuous attacks to wear down the rush over time. that's what extent that this, in the european interest. so i think that we didn't the commitment to this marriage of a mystery is collapsing. i don't want to denigrate the ukrainian soldiers very well . they've been well trained. well armed everything. however, this narrative in the beginning was very from reality. if you remember, you have this mattress on the make island until they talk up on russian team being alive. you have this goes to key who shot down? 40 russia jets. i mean it became ridiculous. this was just sold us a fact them out a few weeks ago. now that money and you know,

they became and the training soldiers, those surrendered and their unconditional surrender. going into rushing up to it and i was just covered in a row. there was an evacuation, how do evacuated from battlefield into russian prison. it doesn't make any sense of we reinventing the language to keep an eye to ramos. i think now, now the smallest are coming in and some are having 2nd thoughts. i see that the commitments to the narrative is cracking and with that i expect that the solidarity will be made to will begin to wither away as well. you know, max, one of the biggest problems with the western mindset and looking at what's going on the conflict in ukraine. is it the expect it to be done like in an american way or a nato way? and if you look at the russian military efforts and ukraine, you know, in knowing something about russian military history, is just the long grind to victory. ok, it's, it's not claim buoyant. it's,

you know, they're not looking for headlines. they're just methodically doing what they always do. from the red army, taking berlin from some would say gross me. what we saw with the conflict and south is that it's remarkably similar, but it's not american or navy or western in, in performance. go ahead. i would also add to the throughout his history, russia has barely entered any conflict, will prepare, you know, solace had it big issues at the beginning or even against, you know, adversaries, what appeared to be much weaker. so there is nothing new in terms of how, you know, the sort of obstacles that russia has encountered now it has changed a lot. i would also focus on some pick up on something the glens mentioned. and you know, this constant pursue, just, you know, trying to reinvent the life to keep the narrative, go on. and i think is it kind of the dark reality of the information worker that

you can win as many okay, dark reality of what we're going to stop on that point. here we go to a quick break. and after that quick break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stay with oxy. ah ah, ah, when i was showing wrong when old fools just don't hold any world yet to shape out disdain becomes the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground.

ah, a ah! welcome to crossed out. were all things considered? i peter labelle. this is the home edition. remind you were discussing some real meals. ah . ok, let's go back to max here in moscow. we're talking about information warfare before we went to our hard break, continue. just to say that, you know, you, you may win as many info bands, if you know, as you wish, you know, create as many sections you want to talk about the dominance information warfare.

but the reality check of the battle field would come back to haunt you one day and you will have hard time explaining to your old constituencies about how on earth this turned out the way it turned out where you told them it would have been. and different also would say that, you know, one of the major things that is now of course evolving this is the risk of global famine and sort of ation. and the did the narrative that is now being shaped up, as i can see, is to shift the blame for this to russia. and i think it's important to know that ukraine prince share in the global production of which is 11.5 percent. whereas that of russia, 16.8 percent. so the town to focus on, you know, russia blocking, build their support and being the main reason for potential local family. you know, without talking about how russians own supply chains with being disrupted,

including 2 sections. and that is actually the major driver of what the problem in the, in the market is also another thing that will come back to haunt those who propel this narrative. i think sometime in the fall, oh, it's interesting gland to say, i've been following this quote unquote, mom a rushes war on food supply here, which is absolutely absurd. i mean, if we look at the exit points in the black sea, these are all been mind by the ukranian government. actually on the day of the conflict that started the day of the conflict, started in mind. these are these parts here. and there is also talk, i guess is the next um, threat, you know, a possible military or non military solution of escorts and things like that. when i listened to the british government list trusts. i mean, she, she does, it keeps you entertained every step of the way here. i mean, she's her, she's so divorced from reality. um,

it makes her potentially very dangerous here. but there's always looking for a wedge, a wedge that doesn't in, at the same time. and it's just part of the information more is just a shame. but, you know, they, you know, they, the, the british to say, well, we won't get involved in it, but other people should do it. i mean, again, you know, i think the biggest question for me in this program here is that, how are they going to accept defeat land? how do they come come to terms with that? because the way i look at it is that possibly in future, historians will tell us, i suppose that, you know, one month in the conflict, there was talks in a sample and it looked like possible movement and then that suddenly dash suddenly, okay, then the people say it was boris johnson. there were other people that were influencing zalinski when ever since then it's russia's time table and rational say when it's over, i mean, because if you don't have an interlocutor, then you have no other choice but to make your own unilateral facts on the ground decisions go ahead one and again, i have

a different view of what the pro ukrainian policy should be, which is stop making you pay all the cost of this escalation and they keep in mind that you go back one step closer in the wanted was unable to stop expanding if we would get some, some concessions on the western side, let's say listen, the problem is no native expression of david, sweet nor can live. and then we want some confessions in ukraine. then they could get a good deal without the crane this thing. high priced in territory, but instead we'll give this escalation alone. keep in mind that for 7 years with them in agreements and agreement, talk maryland to give a hard to me to switch russell's happy with. i have to deal with something for 7 years. russia went to new military and then said, well, if a military bus will have independence and again, you had, you had a peace agreement on this diplomacy in east, on the reaching still far away. but there are,

these are moving towards some kind of a, an agreement that have some common common agreements. and then we saw that the british in america, so pushing them to step away from and withdraw all the confessions. they have committed themselves to know these points and they're working escalating, and now you see russia is also, you know, it's almost the entirety of an artist, also much taco region as well. so. so the longer we keep this, we're going the longer with the delay in the more territory i think ukraine were loose. and, and this is again if you know about deal today for your credit or worse on tomorrow . but again, it's all out today and everyone is objective or need to in the americas point, building some dollars into simply because they're good guys. they want to help them

out or objective such. i think i'm going back to this now that this other objectives are becoming more august. i don't think necessarily the americans european still have the same objectives and therefore from your perspective, and i'm going to stand here on the continent is not necessarily in. that's a favorable idea. i don't know if you can bandied about on cable tv, but the reality of it is if you really want something like that on your borders in europe, i mean, europeans and americans, you know, they tolerated that in afghanistan, iraq, because it was just so far away and the refugees went to europe, they didn't go to the united states. but matt, so want to pick up on something. the glen was saying, you know, henry kissinger, a said, you know, a negotiation should begin soon. ok. that i give credit to his geopolitical genius . ok. not his policies that when he was in power, but i mean, he's not, it's a pretty smart guy. i think everyone would read it. well, why should the russians get involved in any negotiation?

just because of what glen just said. i mean 78 years with the dumbass line deception all of this. and that now you really want to talk in good faith. i mean, that's really hard. ok. and, and plus russia is made a commitment here. it cannot lose, it cannot lose this. it's going to take whatever it wants and, and the room for negotiation, i think is close. i think when the russians decide what their security requirements are, that's what this all is about. everyone gets and when they decide that well then, you know, the other side is going to have to eat humble pie because that's the way it is. i think we'll discuss including, or with this microphone. so in the past of this conflict is in a way, a 3rd major attempt to restructure european security order and order in general, since the end of world war 2, you know, during your conference, she'll be a union to go with us and you can go, she did the new terms for the work order as a where the 2nd attempt to structure world water,

european security order came after the fall, the berlin wall and the collapse of the soviet union, which the soviet union and earlier russia negotiated as a martial loser. now there is an if you were to renegotiate those terms, and i'm pretty sure russia won't stop until it negotiates the new terms for its own political participation through creating more favorable security outcomes as a winner. oh, that, that's a brilliant way of looking. i can reflect upon that here because of a max essentially, a more eloquently just kind of answered my question in your answer was better than my question. so when, i mean is this, are we seeing as a result here because people are so honed in the, at the, in the micro part of it here. but the max is just right. this is actually creating a new pan european security order. that's what russia asked before this happened,

and now we're just going to make it happen, glen, go ahead. i think it's important for y, good on your pm security architecture has been collapsing us 30 years max up. so the berlin wall and the close of the soviet union in the same sense, but we're not to remember there's 2 years in between. so it was in 1999 with the cold war was declared over and exactly 2 years later, the soviet union collapsed. now, what was interesting, because when the cold war was declared over in 1989, it was seen as being a compromise. and both was coming to the table with diplomacy there, resolving this differences. and thereafter, you had all these agreements like the charter, paris for a new europe in which they said the new york should have no defining minds, me, indivisible, security in one such an expanded here at the expense of the other. however, ones and the soviet union collapsed in 1009 to one. then you have the u. s. and buster, the last use investor to the soviet union arguing as well as soon as the soviet

union collapsed. you have this creation in the united states that the cold war i've been one and they should dictate and then you, you're welcome to new year and year one which would be organized around united states. one dimensional include all of the continent except the largest country, russia and you know us many leading americans, politicians and pastors academic still this is going to go really wrong because it only keeps expanding to the east. russian will have to push back one day and you know, the time has come and now we're having a devastating war in europe. so this is a lot of this goes back to this, a failure to establish a cold or a cold war security architecture for you or agree with max. i think the idea that we viewed rushes to loser of the cold war. it kind of mixed

a space in place in which the us will dictate all the terms which meant recreating a european architecture, which russia could one with a and being treated with a band. and i and if treated one after another, and all this treat is collapsed as a consequence of expanding towards the russian worse. so i think it, if you want to solve this or in ukraine, i would see it as a symptom or consequence of this i, i would say the best i do is go back to step one, look at the european security architecture. this is really what brings the military, you're having every year having a larger logic gone closer to head to russia. it doesn't seem like a recipe for stability. and i think if you claim as a price for, for neglecting the security discussions we should have had in your, over the past 30 years, which we never did. and max with close it out here. last 45 seconds. can europe live with an outcome where russia dictates its own security needs?

can europe live with? i don't think it can, but it will have to eventually, if there is no other option on the table. and i think, as i mentioned before, other more affordable peaceful options have failed and the worst decline to talk about russian security proposals in early december. and that's very unfortunate, but i guess that's the reality of today. yeah, i know just doing this program ever since those documents one to nature, one of the united states, i made a program after program after program warning. this is going to happen and you know what gentlemen? it happened maybe they should have listened to me. ok for once i saw with dime, we have over and make my guess a maslow in moscow. i want to thank you for watching us here in our to see you next time. remember ah,

the so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by the u. s. officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved, to become absolutely excruciating, but nobody's lean finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. we started adopting those techniques when i was station and mosul among them were stress position, sleep deprivation, a type of therm. yeah. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrants and children, whatever you do in war comes from home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. the moral authority, the made america will sacrifice the shimmer of effective interrogation

a ah, least 3 people are being killed in the shelling of residential areas, including several oh, in the city of dawn. yes. that's according to local officials who accused the ukrainian military of the liberty targeting civilians with weapons supplied by the u. s. explorers in the left to aid was injured in the ukrainian city of mila. tow, currently, under russian control, was an act of terrorism, stays the local administration and ot correspondent witness the incident. i am now at the moment topple hotel in the center of the city where an explosion took place just 15 minutes ago.