was as african nomics and the university of south tower in brazil. professors voice is great to see you. great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me in your show. and i hope who will go smoothly through the conversation. describe all the glitches that may come up during, you know, why fi connection i'm using, right? yeah, no, no, there is indeed a huge distance or between the 2 of us, urines and pal. i'm in moscow, but i am for people on in your half of the woods are also watching air and following this sounds like because it has already affected much of the globe with not directly down to perhaps indirectly. how much interest do you see from your country mental, what's happening in a world the farther ukraine? well, brazil is really a big territory. as you mentioned, we have a diversity of ethnic groups and, and then 3rd, 3rd grade, sooner to the russian history. we are ears to

a colonial tradition. so we had cycles to for different dominant bowers. elder ruling, the brazilian work now is the brazilian territory. but the fact is that the shoe size of the country implies that that maintain the order, maintain peace or keep even keeping the territory as an interior. part of one government has always been the main challenge, any one governing brazil. so in this we are kind of looking at an endo gammy country. we, we, we don't have it for addition specially among the press even among the breath. we don't have a tradition or actually engaging with international issues. but of course, one key element in the present situation is an impact of her import. the fertilizer, for instance, into the agricultural sector in brazil, brazil, highly dependent on the importance of for fritz wiser. so in that sense,

the shock of her supply chains been disturbed by the conflict that certainly impacts the lat, living conditions in brazil old door. i'm not that sure that the britain population sulkily aware of the connection between higher inflation, francis or a food prices in the conflict in europe, and professor force ackleberry against shed some light on those connections. but before we go into economic specifics, i want to ask you a broader question, because here in eurasia, i think we still romanticize the notion of be great games. you know, this, you know, historic, political and diplomatic struggles are between great powers for central asia, for some other territories. and i was struck the other day by hearing one of the most prominent and most respected russian analysts. very soberly say that it's not a game anymore. it's a fully flight boy between rough and the west. still

a hybrid more, but a one on the last. do you agree with types of definitions that it's so we flagged for anyone who her of course watching what's going on and follow. you can use skin very quickly, realize that at least from the narrative perspective, the solid is not that much engaged in that grand narrative. i think they're turbos awareness in russia. they are very much she gave in a clearly framed earth, clearly framed narrative. whereas dimensionally the wears in the reader are friday for, for go through a journey or for economic issues. but from down here in the south, if you, if you follow the comments by many leaders, bill in africa or in the south asia in south america, you don't see the scale narrative that you drew it. let's see, excuse for not being that much engaged in the country are not being totally aligned

to the u. s. or to the west position as usual. let's say, excuse is that this is not our business in a sense, in the 5th most of these leaders people to the united nations, you'll also see that kind of pattern differently from what the heck lena, bess, when we had the cold war for is the cold war was a clear division here in brazil for instance, there was a clear division, pitbulls b jingles who are pro us those who are parole. so here, now what i see is more of a pragmatic position or a strategic issue. as i mentioned here in brazil where it would go to spectrum, important as the dizzy issue here is mostly fertilizers. we are highly dependent on the board of fertilizers with new seen. the government has been very much engaged into improving logistics and the use of for fertilizer or even assimilating local

industries to develop find chemicals, retro chemicals, and all their resume is also very important in that area. but really, i understand that the major issues that are, of course, and speak in the conflict between russia in the west. but as a matter of fact, those in the south, they don't buy a strictly geopolitical narrative. they're more into, let's see, making sure the surprise, very pragmatically elder in this is, i think, clear, you can see this, sir. interestingly enough, irrespective will be more to the right or more to less. they are not the, i am totally clear about the geopolitical reasons. i think we left with, as i can ask you something because you say that people are not very attuned to geopolitical partitions. but you also come from a region with mary, a long history of western europe, and specifically american meddling because, i mean, going to be a day,

your former president little of the silver last year. and he's pretty open that. and damira can have been treating latin america as if it were a their own backyard than whenever there is an authentic move towards democracy. there is always, at least, according to him. there is always a clue that falls. and in his view, americans are one of the main blogs on the way of a region democratizing itself, genuinely authentically, rather than to you know, to sid the american plans. i wonder how prominent is this issue from, from your perspective, how prominent is this issue of democracy and democratic governance in the ukrainian conflict? because this is obviously part of the western narrative that they are trying to support the, you know, the week or, or the fighting ukrainian at democracy. do you believe it? i think it is this various historically is very disrupted the role of the united states in terms of merely with latin american issues. central american east. of

course, the one thing is the, the border between the u. s. and mexico, where you have a direct issue, a frontier territorial, he just concerning integration. now they're in a different situation, of course is sir brazil was we southward and we don't have a frontier issue or builders. so many brazilians that also my agree to the u. s. looking for jobs and all their depends on the situation branch as when we were under military military dictatorship. begging to seek season seventy's or whether democrats him to go or in the us. and the o held a very broad democratic her policy in the, in terms of the foreign policy that was helpful in bringing the military. she gone in brazil at the time, on the other hand, before debts in when we had the military court in 64, they were very important terms of security. the brazil military,

extreme right into, of course, and becoming a dictatorship. if you go even backwards in the history, you can see that, for instance, even the military brazilian military, they were very important at that time, the post war during the 2nd world war in immediately after the 2nd world war. when the allies where westerns and the russians and the soviet union against the passes are immediately after war watson as is where defeated there was a can over miracle period when every one was in favor of democracy and most of the military the came back from the war effort, they were in favor and democracy and then like doctors with blue areas was ousted. so i didn't really depends on the situation. but of course, from a geopolitical perspective, there has been a very long tradition of, you know, her sharing the planet in terms of her regional. so for such interests and of

course latin american belongs, so to speak to the us inference. on the other hand, we should not term and we should not soon downplayed importance of iraq puny influence in brazil, that's interesting. brazil. the fact that the, despite all the u. s. interest, there is the very important influence draw european powers. this is the colonial or territory a former colony of portugal and, and then we were of course, very much influenced by different ways of immigration. so you, you will find in the brazilian brazilian society any been among the lease, lot of people that came from italy, from spain, from japan, from germany. and i remember being in the brazilians, antello specific land meeting. a lot of fashion immigrants are you indeed have had a lot of our ability call cultural influence all around the world. and you said

before that i have, this is one of the factors that allows you now to try to maintain your strategic neutrality. for the sake of your own economic and perhaps social interested, i wonder how challenging it is because we know from other countries that the united states has put a lot of pressure on to other capitals to make them take what they call them. more principles or rather in real terms, the more prov, west and physician. well, i like to compare brazil and even south america to try angle issue shoe. look at the map, you'll see that it's more or less a triangle. and where you have the, the sizes of the triangle, you have the pacific ocean, the atlantic ocean and north america dead sir, implies that south america has sir, at least sir opportunity and opportunity to glee with gardeners or boats to the west end to lease and of course there is this the 3 digit relationship with,

with the us with, for his us. and for many years, are we used to say here that the 2nd largest german in gertrude city is some barbara for the presence of german automakers or a chemical industry in the city. and the city of san paula is really impressive. so brazil must from her from her economic perspective, resume must be more pragmatic. at times it will of course be more aligned. but sir, you see, for instance, and some either seizures on green borden issues in terms of the political positioning on the britain groom. let's say the middle east issue, which is really thorny and very heart issue or so man indicates brazil was very important. when did the state of israel was created back in 94 year for the man. brazil was very important at their time on your their handbook who has a tradition irrespective of her, of still who is in power as

a tradition of supporting palestinian riots and policy and efforts. so is it for those who are not in brazil, it's my look a little bit strange or excuse or for any maybe because brazil was always swinging between symbolic swinging or you can call it balancing. and this is what any complicated, complex country would that be expected to do because the world is such a complicated place. it's not divided into good and evil anyway anymore. anyway, professor was we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. ah ha.

ah ah, since the breakaway of the donates people's republic was been ranging and don bass, ukrainian artillery has been shelling civilian townsend, mining villages. new york more lovely deal with

little boys will give us one ah hell come back to his appointment until some tours professor of economics at the university of some palo in brazil, professors 1st before the break. we were talking about this very difficult, very challenging balancing act that brazil is trying to maintain on the international scene. and i understand that there are many tricky to political issues. but for example, when, when it comes to issues of human health or, you know, human wellness even there, it seems that their major choices to be made. and what i'm talking about here is

that a couple of years back when they come pandemic was at its highest the americans tried to put pressure on you to make sure that you reject the russian made vaccine. and what surprised me at that time is that the united states describe that vaccine at the mo, line inference detrimental to use safety and security. it's actually been put into the report. do you think we, the russians can ever come to any sort of peaceful coexistence with the americans or with the westerners, when even such a life saving product as vaccines are categorized as this ready to use, safety and security? well, the same happy glue with the chinese vaccines, the brazilian government flow at least the recent one or who is very, very positions are very much position at the extreme right. or the present himself

was the negation is and has always been a critic of chinese serve exceeds an even called covalent chinese issue. and the chinese, the malaise. but even at the beginning of the condemning, we can remember that even the word health organization was kind of cautious before all bully stating that there was the condemning going on. i think the, the, the relationship in terms of diplomacy, the relationship between the, that russia in, in the west as school, with many order or regions of the words and india, of course china, africa, in, in, in all his history, his week we cannot ignore that. we are in a post colonial era. it's sir, it's of course, sir, very clear that the capitalist development in the west became a machine, a war,

i mean for, for many, many years. and we, we could, we could always earn sports crisis moments of crisis when only war could. let's see, save capitalism, form a deep, good destruction from revolution revolution or from major crisis. so i think the erm, i don't want to do to sound to economists. but as a matter of fact, we know that there is a very strict connection between the development of capitalist societies and the use of violence. is this frank from start from peggy? could be a little bit more specific. and do you think the war in your brain are, is a consequence of that really the differences between russia and the west indies saw irreconcilable prior to you are this conflict that they could only be solved on the battlefield. i think there are very

a very significant meaningful indicators that the conflict was and mounting process, though the tensions were accumulating and the from board sides, there was the perception of weakness. ah, i remember at the end of the soviet union that the west, the celebrated rush. so sol, at times it will be a very solid in the evening or even room, i would say even over excited support at the end of the day. and that is the void for russia that was on its knees, and he to use a cliche, but it was a very weak rush and the air rather than treated its own people very poorly. i wasn't really routed that there was celebrating, or rather the very sorry, condition that russia was. then i would say that there wasn't a whole that the capitalist elite would say, call her in russia and begun partner with the capitalists. it heats of the west. so

at that time, there was a strategic interest in supporting a very fast transition, a very fast prerequisition process. remembered american scholars that went to the door to reassure, to do really a defender, a very, a shock treatments. and remember that because in brazil was more or less the same, many people are talking shock treatment to convert brazil into a hybrid capitalist economy. so i think the, we have to go into a very, very, to the bottom line. i think am the connection or the partnership among countries, especially the east in the west. really depends on over call me some basic issues that are related to the process of capital accumulation or the process of domination. true for us. of course, this is, utopia, is this utopian. but there has been, let's see, at least 200 years of people,

both in the east and the west discussing the limits offer a limitless ah capitalist, the completion. so how can you established limits to develop into 2 groups or 2 capital accumulation? when the system itself is limitless, i mean there is a trend and a nina trained to over exploit the natural resources to destroy the environment. and of course, to over exploit the human labor technology also plays a role here because the accumulation or proceeds there is, let's in an inherent or, or indigenous or an impulse to save on labor or to increase the productivity of labor introducing technologies that increase productivity. but of course, income distribution does not follow. so there is

a connection here between the mod of production, the good, the development model, and the perspective for the ma, christie bought eternally in international. these i speak up to a lot of non western thinkers from india, pakistan, africa, china, the philippines now from brazil. and they come from very different life context of it. very different. they're, you know, ideological positions, but they all trust one point and that country should focus 1st and foremost, on their own practical pragmatic or issues that have a direct relevance to people's lives. and it is, if it, it may look like a new or an incarnation of the non aligned movement that we have back in the cold war days, but not the political non align moment, but rather economic non the line moment. would that all for some hope that those countries that have a, don't have a stake in this conflict, and they may actually try to defend the fair rules of the game for all i think the

main difference between what's going on now and the non alliance era so to speak is lot to 1st of course the economic issue that's so prominent. but i think that another very, very important thing, a process that we are now that did not decrease at that time. it is called era, is really the, the role of china. so what i see now, for instance, the bricks, the brazil, russia, india, china, and south africa coalition. and we have just her own witless, like a couple of weeks ago, the chinese government asking we're inviting for an expansion of greeks. so it's not really a reduction of non alignment, but i think the term, the east to west conflict is not the so 3 toward, in a says the china begs in a fancy to most would back the russian position. but of course,

the chinese have their own interest as well. and they also looking forward to her award regime, or it'll have politic or geo political regime in the future where china plays a larger role. there. they've been investing a lot in what we called soft power and importance of chinese africa relations and chinese latin american train and brit and the bricks. so i think that is, it looks like where it sounds like the learn alignment. in a sense, that's true because economic factors are really very critical here in terms of survival and socialization. protest is the more good, less developed congress, but they think there is another piece on the board. and this is the chinese with try any scheme. the train, his interest does not close words either with the u. s. or directions, they have their own geopolitical strategies, but correct me them wrong. but my perception of the chinese policies is at least that certainly they are pursuing down interest, but they're,

they're letting other countries choose for themselves. they are offering, they're not just coming with answer rhetoric like the united states and trying to persuade everybody to choose the values over valuable as well. and you know, occurring all the benefits for washington. but they're actually offering something in return. they're offering a loans, they're offering an infrastructure projects. what have you, don't you think that the system while it seems to be a set of i'm a little bit skewed in a, in favor of china. it also gives other countries more freedom and why ability to is for them south. i think the, the key issue in terms of booker economics and politic screener is the future of technology. so we've seen, even during the trump administration, biden does not change debts any can. anyway, i think that the acknowledge it is true here is very important,

especially telecommunications there. so of course 5 g and all the discussions about the next generation telecommunication infrastructures. there's the key point, or it's not as much territorial as it is about creating a framework for the expansion of the internet or the expression of digital services of the digital economy. certainly the chinese or they have invested a lot in technology and they have been very, very, are important in terms of for penetrating different markets with the digital infrastructure as hallway is a global player. or we have now tick tock, which is a major, major force among children and youth earl everywhere. so i think that the chinese again is more sophisticated now. and of course direct investment for indirect investment is an important piece. chinese though invested in brazil, for instance in the elect, electric,

and in an energy may directly energy infrastructure. that is all relates to the future of technology on the one hand, and a very important aspect of these new technologies that is currency. there is no, no possibility whatsoever or new word order with other new financial landscape. that's why trainees layer landing is too important, as well as chinese investments in the garage because we know for sure the paper money is something of the best. it's now everything is about digital transfers. wire transfer to see that one of the sanctions. and i was suspension of russia from which is a longstanding infrastructure for financial transactions. totally wired, a system for wired thrusters the money. so i think that the chinese, the chinese game so to speak is very much focusing on technology, telecommunications, and not only the markets that come out of this new technology,

but also the from a shoe infrastructure that will be built. it's already been under development. it's a new financial landscape that it's very difficult to censor. it's very difficult to control. but you can see that the kids o y e one. 0, to teach torrini and b a all. every one is in a rush to achieve this next stage of financial development that depends on telecommunications and professor wars. let's hold dad. the chinese will be a more pragmatic, more strategic and wiser about the use of these newly accrued currency muscle than americans have been. anyway, thank you very much for being with us. we have to leave it there. thank you. thank you so much. let's hope for the best. i think that there's a said there may be, it's not her money that's coming up, but certainly a more complex reality where the cold war to caught them is,

will be overcome. thank you very much. would you be with you and thank you for watching hope to hear again on oil, depart ah with ah, ah, ah, a spoke

with madison both, both the models you need to do both with a with a lot of them, but i can't afford them by a they need a, with a personal number here that you know,

with my, my deposit can a tough internal opposition that you announces a tentative deal for a 6th round of sanctions against russia, including partial embargo on oil imports. nato no longer plans to observe restrictions on stationing forces in eastern europe going against what has long been a red line for moscow. ukrainian military is notorious as all battalion attempts to whitewash its image by getting rid of nazi symbols on its uniforms. but recent photo show some of those emblems are still being worn with.