so dramatic that easily conceal other persons and other victims of their russian western class. it has already adversely affected. many countries, especially in the global south, chose the seemingly far away regional conflict, seen from the largest and one of the most accurately diverse countries in south america. well, to discuss it, i'm now enjoying by doing some force professor of economics at the university of south follow in for sale. professor schwartz is great to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having your show and i hope who will go smoothly through the conversation. despite all the glitches that may come up during, you know, the why fi connection that i'm using right now. there is indeed a huge distance or between the 2 of us, urines and towel. i'm in moscow, but i'm sure people on in your half of the woods are also watching and following the counseling because it has already affected much of the globe is not directly

down perhaps indirectly. how much interest do you see from your countrymen to what's happening? you know, was a part in your brain. well, brazil is really a big territory. as you mentioned, we have a diversity of ethnic groups. and at san said, they're great sooner to the russian history. we are ears to a colonial tradition. so we had cycles of different dominant powers overruling the president work now is to pursue the territory. but the fact is that the shoe size of the country implies that maintaining the order, maintaining peace or keeping even keeping the territory is an interior part of one government has always been the main challenge. anyone governing brazil. so in this we're kind of, we're kind of an inorganic country. we, we, we don't have

a tradition, especially among the press, even among the breast. we don't have a tradition of actually engaging with international issues. but of course, one key element in the present situation is an impact or for import the federalized or for instance, a include agricultural sector in brazil, brazil hayley need brendan on the importance of school for, for it to i as there's so in that sense, the shock of her supply chains been in a disturbed by the conflict that certainly impacts the lat, living conditions in brazil old door. i'm not that sure that the president populations still pre aware of the connection between higher inflation, francis or a food prices in the conflict in europe. and perhaps as far as i believe it can shed some light on those connections. but before we go into economics specifics, i wanna ask you a broader question, because here in eurasia, i think we still romanticize the notion of be great. again, you know, this,

you know, historic, political and diplomatic struggles that are between great powers for central asia are for some other territories. and i was trying to the other day by hearing one of the most prominent and most respected russian analysts. there is soberly say that it's not a game anymore. it's a fully flight. more between rough and a west. feel a hybrid more but a one on the last. do you agree with types of definitions that it so we flagged for anyone who was her, of course watching what's going on and follow you. the new skin very quickly realised that at least from the narrative perspective, the solid is not that much engaged in that grin. narrative, i think they're turbos the where. in russia they are very much she gave in a clearly framed earth, clearly framed narrative. whereas dimensionally where in the regime are friday for,

for a go true are generally refer economic issues. but from down here in the salad, if you, if you follow the comments by many leaders, bill in africa or in the south asia in south america, you don't see that kyle narrative. the usual way, let's see, excuse for not being that much engaged in the conflict or not being totally aligned to the u. s. or to the west position. is that the usual, let's say, excuse, is that this is not our business in assessed. in the 3rd, most of these leaders, if you will call united nations, you'll also see that kind of pattern differently from what the heck elizabeth, when we had the cold war, for instance, the cold war was a clear division here in brazil for instance, there was a clear division battle between those who are pro us those who are parole. so here, now what i see is more of

a pragmatic position as the digit issue. as i mentioned here in brazil where it would go to spectrum. so important, so dizzy issue here is mostly fertilizers. we are highly dependent on the board of fertilizers with new, seen. the government has been very much engaged into improving logistics and the use of for fertilizer or even assimilating local industries to develop a frank chemicals, petrochemical in august. brazil is also very important in that area. but really, i understand the, the major issues that are, of course, and seek in the conflict between russia in the west. but as a matter of fact, those in the south, they don't buy a strictly geopolitical narrative. they're more into, let's see, making sure the surprise of very pragmatically elder in this is, i think, clear, you can see this, sir. interesting. no,

irrespective of be more to the right or more to list the or not. so i am totally clear about the geopolitical reasons. i think the lawyer wasn't gonna, as i can ask you something because you say that people are not very attuned to geopolitical implications. but you also come from a region that the very long history of western europe and specifically american meddling because i am and i interviewed their, your former president little of the silva last year and he's pretty open that day. americans have been treating latin america as if it were a their own backyard than whenever there is an authentic move towards democracy. there is always, at least, according to him. there is always a clue that follows. and in he's of, you, americans are one of the main blogs on the way of our region democratizing itself. genuinely authentic li, rather than to you know, to see the american plans. i wonder how prominent is this issue from, from your perspective, how prominent is this issue of democracy and democratic governance in the ukrainian

conflict? because this is obviously part of the western narrative that they are trying to support the, you know, the week or, or the flattering ukrainian or democracy. do you believe it? i think it is this various historically is very, historically the role of the united states in terms of merely with latin american issues. central american east. of course, the one thing is the, the border between the u. s. and mexico. where you have a direct issue from gear territorial. he's just concerning the grey for now. they're in a different situation, of course is sir bruce do as we southward and we don't have a frontier issue or builders. so many brazilians that also my agree to the u. s, looking for jobs and all that depends on the situation. for instance, when we were under military military dictatorship, begging to seek season seventy's or whether democrats in 2 or in the us. and

leave her held a very broad democratic her policy in the, in terms of their foreign policy. that was helpful in bringing the military down in brazil at their time. on the other hand, before that, in a, when we had the military coup in 64, they were very important terms of supporting the brazilian military, extreme right into, of course, and becoming a dictatorship. if you go even backwards in the history, you can see that, for instance, even the military brazilian military, they were very important at that time, the force work during the 2nd world war. and immediately after the 2nd world war. when the allies where westerns ended russians and the soviet union against the masses are immediately after war was him. as is where defeated. there was again, over a miracle period when everyone was in favor of democracy and most of the military

that came back from the war effort. they were a favor in democracy and then the doctors with blue areas was ousted. so i didn't really depends on the situation, but of course, from a geopolitical perspective, there has been a very long tradition of, you know, her sharing the planet in terms of her region. so for so generic interests and of course latin american belongs so to speak to the u. s. inference. on the other hand, we should not term and we should not, sir. danny played importance of your opinion, influence in brazil, best interest in brazil are the fact that the, despite all the u. s. interest, there is the very important influence, troy iraq, peon or powers. this is the colonial or territory a former colony of portugal and, and then we where of course, very much influenced by it different ways of immigration. so you,

you will find in the brazilian brazilian society and he been among the lease lot of people that came from italy, from spain, from japan, from germany, and even harass i remember being in brazilians, antello, specifically, and meeting a lot of fashion immigrants. so you indeed have had a lot of our belittle cultural influence from all around the world. and you said before that, or perhaps this is one of the factors that allows you now to try to maintain your strategic neutrality for the sake of your own economic and perhaps social interest . but i wonder how challenging it is, because we know from other countries that the united states has put a lot of pressure on to other capitals to make them take what they call them. more principles or rather in real terms, the more prov, west, and physician. well, i like to compare brazil and even south america to triangle issue shoe. look at the map, you'll see that it's more or less

a triangle and where you have that the size of the triangle, you have the pacific ocean, the atlantic ocean and north america denser implies that south america has sir. at least sir oppertunity an opportunity to glee with gardeners or boats to the west end to lease. and of course, there is the 3 digit relationship with, with the us, with, for his us. and for many years. or we used to see here that the 2nd largest german in gertrude city is some barbara for the presence of german automakers or a chemical industry in the city. and the city of san paula is really impressive. so brazil must from her from her economic perspective, resume must be more pragmatic. at times it will of course, be more aligned. but sir, you see, for instance,

some interesting shows some very important issue. there was of the political positioning of the prison going, let's say the middle east, which is really already very hot issue or so many decades. brazil is very important when the state of israel was created back in 194849. brazil was very important at that time. on the other hand, brazil has a tradition irrespective of the who's in power and has a tradition of supporting policy, right, the policy and efforts. so is it for those who are not in brazil, it's a little bit strange or it is a frantic maybe because it was always swinging a swinging or you can call it balancing. and this is what any complicated, complex country would that be expected to do. because the world is such a complicated place, it's not divided into good and evil anyway anymore. anyway, professor, once we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just

a few moments. and i am with a forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification, we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to make truck rather than a with artificial intelligence. real. somebody with

must protect his own existence, his own with too. oh, when i was showing wrong, when i just don't know. i mean, you world, yes to feed out is the, becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves world warren, we choose to look for common ground. ah, hell come back to his appointment, a jilson 4th professor of economics at the university of some palo in brazil,

professors 1st before the break. we were talking about this very difficult, very challenging balancing act that brazil is trying to maintain on the international scene. and i understand that there are many tricky geopolitical issues. but for example, when, when it comes to issues of human health or, you know, human wellness even there, it seems that they're major choices to be made. and what i'm talking about here is that a couple of years back when they come pandemic was at its highest the americans tried to put fresh on the you to make sure that you reject the russian made vaccine. and, oh, what surprised me at that time is that the united states describe that vaccine at the mo line inference detrimental to use safety and security it's, it's actually been put into the report. do you think we, the russians can ever come to any sort of peaceful coexistence with the americans

or with the westerners, when even such a life saving product as vaccines are categorized as this ready to use, safety and security? well, the same happy girl with the chinese vaccines, the brazilian government fly, at least the recent one or who's very, very positions that very much position at the extreme right. or the present himself was the negation is and has always been a critic of chinese serve, exceeds an even called covalent chinese term issue. and the chinese, the malaise. but even at the beginning of the pandemic, we can remember that even the word health organization was kind of cautious before all belief stating that there was the condemning going on. i think the, the relationship in terms of diplomacy, the relationship between the,

that russia in, in the west as school, with many order or regions of the words and india. of course china, africa in all is history week. we cannot ignore that. we are in a post colonial era in sir is of course sir, very clear that the capitalist development in the west became a machine war. i mean, for, for many, many years. and we, we could, we could always earn sports crisis moments of crisis when only war could. let's see, save capitalism, form a deep, good destruction from revolution revolution or from major crisis. so i think the erm, i don't want to do to sound to economists. but as a matter of fact,

we know that there is a very strict connection between the development of capitalist societies and the use of violence. is this trend from start from beginning to be a little bit more specific? and do you think the war in ukraine ah, is a consequence of that, really the differences between russia and the west indies, so irreconcilable prior to you are this conflict that they could only be solved on the battlefield. i think there are very a very significant meaningful indicators that the conflict was and mountain process. though the tensions were accumulating and or from board sides, there was the perception of weakness. ah, i remember at the end of the soviet union that the west, the celebrated rush. so, so at times it will be a very solid in the evening or even room, i would say,

even over excited support, or d n a. and if the voice were russia that was on its knees and he to use a cliche, but it was a very weak rash and the air rather than treated its own people very poorly. i wasn't really routed that there was, were celebrating, or rather the very sorry, condition that russia was. then i would say that there was a hope that the capitalist elite would they call her in russia and begun partner with the capitalists. it heats of the west. so at that time, there was a strategic interest in supporting a very fast transition, very fast for recreational process. remembered american scholars that went to the door to russia to do really a defender, a very, a shock treatments. and remember that because in brazil was more or less the same, many people are talking shock treatment to convert brazil into

a hybrid capitalist economy. so i think the, we have to go into a very, very, to the bottom line. i think am the connection or the partnership among countries, especially the east in the west. really depends on, over call me some basic issues that are related to the process of capital accumulation, the process of domination, true for us. of course, this is utopia, is this utopian. but there has been, let's see, at least 200 years of people, both in that he's in the west discussing the limits or for a limitless, ah capitalistic relations. so how can you establish limits to development, to growth or to capital accumulation? when the system itself is limitless, i mean there is a trend and a nina trained to over exploit the natural resources to destroy the environment.

and of course, to over exploit the human labor technology also plays a role here because the, as a accumulation or proceeds there is, let's in an inherent or enlarging most or an impulse to save on labor or to increase the productivity of labor introducing technologies that increase productivity, but of course income distribution does not follow. so there is a connection here between the mode of production the good, the development model. and the perspective for the marg, rusty, brought eternally and international. this figure to a lot of non western thinkers from india, pakistan, africa, china, the philippines now from brazil. and they come from very different life context of it very different. they're, you know, ideological positions,

but they all trust one point that that countries should focus 1st and foremost, on their own practical pragmatic or issues that have a direct relevance to people's lives. and it is, if you know it, it may look like a new or an incarnation of the non aligned movement that we have back in the cold war days, but not the political non align moment, but rather economic non the line moment. would that offer some hope that those countries that have a don't have a stake in this conflict? and they may actually try to defend the fair rules of the game for all i think the main difference between what's going on now and the non alignment era. so to speak is lot to 1st of course the economic issue that's prominent, but i think that's another very, very important thing. a process that we are now that did not decrease at that time . it is called era is really the, the role of china. so what i see now, for instance, the bricks though, brazil, russia, india, china,

and south africa coalition. and we have just her own witless, like a couple of weeks ago, the chinese government asking we're inviting for an expansion of greeks. so it's not the really origin of non alignment, but i think the term, the east to west conflict is not the so 3 toward in it says the china beg, in a fancy to mostly back the russian position. but of course, the chinese have their own interest as well. and they are also looking forward to her award regime, or it'll have politic or geo political regime in the future where china plays a larger role. there. they've been investing a lot in what we called soft power and importance of chinese africa relations and chinese latin american train and, and the bricks. so i think that is, it looks like where it sounds like the lawn alignment in

a sense that it's true because economic factors are really very critical here in terms of survival and socialization. protest is the more good less developed congress, but they think there is another piece on the board. and this is the trainees that try any scheme. the train, his interest does not close roads either with the u. s. or directions, they have their own geopolitical strategies. but correct me them wrong, or my perception of the chinese policies is at least that certainly they are pursuing down interest, but they're, they're letting other countries choose for themselves. they are offering, they're not just coming with empty rhetoric like the united states, and trying to persuade everybody to choose the values over valuable as well. and you know, occurring all the benefits for washington. but they're actually offering something in return. they're offering a loans, they're offering an infrastructure projects. what have you, don't you think that the system while it seems to be a set of i'm

a little bit skewed in a, in favor of china. it also gives the other countries more freedom and my ability to is for them south. i think the, the key issue in terms of booker economics and politic screener is the future of technology. so we've seen, even during the trump administration, biden does not change debts any can. anyway, i think that the acknowledge it is true here is very important, especially telecommunications there. so of course 5 g and all the discussions about the next generation telecommunication infrastructures. there's the key point, or it's not as much territorial as it is about creating a framework for the expansion of the internet or at the expression of digital services of the digital economy. certainly the chinese or the have invested a lot in technology and they have been very, very,

are important in terms of penetrating different markets with the digital infrastructure as hallway is a global player. and we have now tick tock, which is a major, major force among children uter everywhere. so i think that the chinese game is more sophisticated now and there of course, direct investment for indirect investment is an important piece. chinese though invested in brazil for instance in the elect, electric, and in an energy may directly energy infrastructure. that is all relates to the future of technology on the one hand and a very important aspect of these new technologies that is currently there is no, no possibility whatsoever or new word order with other new financial landscape. that's why trainees landing is so important as well as chinese, the veterans in the garage because we know for sure the paper money is something of

the best is now everything is about digital transfers. wire transfer to see that one of the sanctions and i was suspension of russia from which is a longstanding infrastructure for financial transactions. totally wired system for wired thrusters the money. so i think that the chinese, the chinese game so to speak is very much focused on technology, telecommunications, and not only the markets that come out of this new technology, but also the from a shoe infrastructure that will be built. it's already been under development. it's a new financial landscape that it's very difficult to sensor it's very difficult to control, but you can see that the kid. so why one? 0, to teach torrini and b, a all, every one is in a rush to achieve the next stage of financial development that depends on telecommunications, empathetic force. let's hold dad. the chinese will be

a more pragmatic, more strategic and wiser about the use of these newly accrued currency muscle than americans have been. anyway, thank you very much for being with us. we have to leave it there. thank you. thank you so much. let's hope for the best. i think that there's a said there may be, it's not hard money that's coming up, but certainly a more complex reality where the cold war to customers will be overcome. thank you very much. would you be with you and thank you for watching hope to hear again on the walls apart ah

blue so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by the u. s. officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind. if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating, but nobody's lane finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. we started adopting those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were, stress, possession, sleep deprivation, a type of thermo. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant children. whatever you do or more comes home. nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the

past and the moral authority, the made america leader sucker funds for the shimmer of effective interrogation. with these do some with mr. new front or didn't want to be awesome with the deal with was.