ah ah with me. hello and welcome towards the party. the tragedy of the war in your brain is so visceral and so dramatic that it me easily conceal other persons and other victims of the russian western whiplash. it has already adversely affected many countries, especially in the global south toes. the seemingly far away regional conflict, seen from the largest and one of the most accurately diverse countries in south

america. well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by june, 4th, professor of economics at the university of south follow in brazil. professor schwartz is great to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me in your show, and i hope you will go smoothly through the conversation. despite all the glitches that may come up during, you know, why fi connection that i'm using right now? there is indeed a huge distance between the 2 of us. you're in st. paul, i'm in moscow, but i'm sure people on in your half of the woods are also watching. i am following this sounds like because it has already affected much of the globe is not directly done perhaps indirectly. how much interest do you see from your countrymen to what's happening world, the part of your brain? well, brazil is really a big territory. as you mentioned, we have a diversity of ethnic groups. and i did send the question it to the russian history

. we are ears to a colonial tradition. so we had cycles of friends domino's powers, elder ruling, the brazilian work now is to pursue the territory. but the fact is that the shoe size of the country implies that maintaining the order, maintaining peace or keeping even keeping the territory as an interior. part of one government has always been the main challenge. anyone governing brazil. so in this we are kind of look over indoor gamlee country we, we, we don't have it for edition, especially among the press, even among the breath. we don't have a tradition of actually engaging with international issues. but of course, one key element in the present situation is an impact of for import. the federalized or census included agricultural sector in brazil,

brazil hailing it brendan on the importance of school for free to i as there's so in that sense, the shock of her supply chains been disturbed by the conflict that certainly impacts the lead. living conditions in brazil, although i'm not that sure that the bridge didn't population softly aware of the connections between higher inflation, francis or food prices in the conflict in europe. and perhaps as far as i probably can shed some light on those connections. but before we go into economics specifics, i wanna ask you a broader question, because here in eurasia, i think we still romanticize the notion of big great games. you know, this, you know, historic, political and diplomatic struggles are between great powers for central asia, for some other territories. and i was trying the other day by hearing one of the most prominent and most respected russian analysts. very soberly say that it's not

a game anymore. it's a fully fledged boy between raf and the west. feel a hybrid more but a one on the last. do you agree? spice destination that if so, we slaps for anyone who's sir, of course, watching what's going on and follow your new skin very quickly. realize that at least from the narrative perspective, the solid is not that much engaged in that grand narrative. i think that they're both aware. in russia, they are very much engaged in. clearly, frames are clearly framed narrative. whereas you mentioned the west in the re here are friday for, for a go through a jonera for economic issues. but from down here in the south, if you, if you follow the comments by many leaders built in africa or in the south asia in south america, you don't see the scale narrative. the usual way,

let's say excused for not being that much engaged in the conflict or not being totally aligned to the u. s. or to the west position. is that the usual, let's say, excuse is that this is not our business in a sense in the fed mosul does lead, if you will call united nations, you'll also see that kind of pattern differently from what the heck elizabeth, when we had the cold war for instance, the cold war was a clear division here in brazil for instance, there was a clear division both between those who are pro us, those who are parole. so here, now what i see is more of a pragmatic position as the digit issue. as i mentioned here in brazil where it would go to a spectrum standpoint, so dizzy issue here is mostly fertilizers. we are highly dependent on the input of fertilizers with no seen. the gordon has been very much engaged into improving

logistics and the use of for fertilizer or even assimilating local industries to develop a frank chemicals retro because in brazil is also very important in that area. but really, i understand the, the major issues that are, of course, that speak in the conflict between russia, the west. but as a matter of fact, doors in the south, the don't buy a strictly do political narrative. they're more into, let's see, making sure the surprise are very pragmatically elder in this. i think clearly you could see this, sir. interestingly enough, irrespective will be more to the right or more to list the or not the i am totally clear about the jubilee decrease. i think the lawyer wasn't gonna, as i can ask you something because it, you say that people are not very attuned to geopolitical implications. but you also come from a region with a very long history of western europe and specifically american meddling because i

am. and i interviewed their, your former president little of the silver last year and he's pretty open that day . americans have been treating latin america as if it were their own backyard than whenever there is an authentic move towards democracy. there is always, at least, according to him, there is always a clue that follows. and in his view, americans are one of the main blogs on the way of our region democratizing itself. genuinely authentic lee rather than to you know, to see the american plans. i wonder how prominent is this issue from, from your perspective, how prominent is this issue of democracy and democratic governance in the ukrainian conflict? because this is obviously part of the western narrative that they are trying to support the, you know, the week or, or the flattering ukrainian or democracy do believe it. i think it is this various historically is very disrupted the role of the united states in terms of merely

with latin american issues. central american, if of course, the one thing is the, the border between the u. s. mexico, where you have a direct issue, a fraud gear territorial, he just concerning grey for now. they're in a different situation, of course is sir brazil was we southward and we don't have a frontier issue though. there are so many brazilians that also migrate to the u. s, looking for jobs and all that depends on the situation. for instance, when we were under military military dictatorship, begging to seek season seventy's. and when the democrats came to power in the u. s . and the o held a very broad democratic her policy. and in terms of their foreign policy, that was helpful in bringing the military him down in brazil at that time. on the other hand, before that in when we had the military court in 54,

they were very important terms of supporting the brazilian military extreme right into, of course, and becoming a dictatorship. if you go even backwards in the history, you can see the phrases even the military, brazil, a military. they were very important at that time, the forswear during the 2nd world war. and immediately after the 2nd world war, when the allies where westerns ended russians and the soviet union against the masses, are immediately after war. watson as is where defeated. there was again, over a miracle period when every one was in favor of democracy. and most of the military that came back from the war effort, they were in favor and democracy and then the doctors with blue areas was ousted. so i didn't really depends on the situation. but of course, from a geopolitical perspective, there has been a very long tradition of, you know,

her sharing the planet in terms of her region. so for strategic interests and of course latin american belongs, so to speak to the u. s. in. on the other hand, we should not term and we should not, sir, don't play the importance of european inference in brazil, best interest in brazil. the fact that the, the spies all the us interest, there is the very important inference, troy european powers. this is the colonial, were territorial, former colonies of portugal and, and then we where of course, very much influenced by different ways of immigration. so you, you will find in the brazilian brazilian society and he been among the leads, lot of people that came from italy, from spain, from japan, from germany. and even her ross. i remember being in the brazilians antello, specifically, and meeting a lot of fashion immigrants. so you indeed have had

a lot of our belittle cultural influence from all around the world. and you said before that, or perhaps this is one of the factors that allows you now to try to maintain your strategic neutrality for the sake of your own economic and perhaps social interest . i wonder how challenging it is because we know from other countries that the united states has put a lot of pressure on to other capitals to make them take what they call them more principles or rather in real terms and more prom west and physician. well, i like to compare brazil and even south america to triangle issue shoe, look at the map, you'll see that it's more or less a triangle and where you have that, the size of the triangle, you have the pacific ocean, the atlantic ocean and north america dead sir implies that south america has sir, at least sir oakwood unity, an opportunity to glee with gardeners or boats to the west end to lease. and of

course, there is this the 3 digit relationship with, with the us with for his us. and for many years, we used to say here that the 2nd largest german industrial city is the so the presence of german automakers or chemical industry in the city and the state of some call is really impressive. so brazil must, from a, from a economic perspective was due, must be more pragmatic. at times it will of course, be more aligned. but you see, for instance, there's some interesting system, very important issue there was of the political positioning of the prison going, let's say the middle east issue, which is really thorny and very hot issue are so many the case. brazil was very important when the state of israel was created back in

194849. brazil was very important at that time. on the other hand, brazil has a tradition irrespective of the who's in power and has a tradition of supporting policy, right. the policy efforts, so it's, it's for those who are not in brazil, it's might look a little bit strange or a skid or frantic. maybe because it was always swinging a swinging or you can call it balancing. and this is what any complicated, complex country would that be expected to do because the world is such a complicated place. it's not divided into good and evil anyway anymore. anyway, professor, once we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. h in a k

with ah ah, since the break away of the donates people's republic was being ranging and don't boss ukrainian artillery it's been shelling civilian, townsend, mining village. is that new york more? very lovely deal with what i grew up with

a deal about one of your company, a little above level of the city of little boys will give us one ah hell come back to his appointment until some 4th, professor of economics at the university of some palo in brazil, professors 1st before the break, we were talking about this very difficult, very challenging balancing act that brazil is trying to maintain on the international scene. and i understand that there are many tricky to political issues. but for example, when, when it comes to issues of human health or, you know, human wellness, even there,

it seems that they're major choices to be made. and what i'm talking about here is that a couple of years back when they come and pandemic was at its highest, the americans tried to put pressure on you to make sure that you reject the russian made vaccine. and what surprised me at that time is that the united states describe that vaccine at the malign inference detrimental to use safety and security. it's actually been put into a report. do you think we, the russians can ever come to any sort of peaceful coexistence with the americans or with the westerners, when even such a life saving product as vaccines are categorized as this ready to use, safety and security? well, the same happy good with the chinese vaccines. the brazilian government flow at least the recent one or who is very,

very positions are very much position at the extreme right. or the present himself was the negation is and has always been a critic of chinese serve, exceeds an even called covey. that chinese earn issue at a time he is der malaise. but even at the beginning of the condemning, we can remember that even the award health organization was kind of cautious before all belief stating that there was the condemning going on. i think that the, the relationship in terms of diplomacy, the relationship between the, that russia in the west as school, with many order or regions of the words and india. of course china, africa in all is history. as we cannot ignore that, we are in a post colonial era in sir is of course sir,

very clear that the capitalist development in the west became a machine of war. i mean for, for many, many years. and we could, we could always earn sports crisis moments of crisis when only war could. let's see, save capitalism form a deep, good destruction from revolution revolution or from major crisis. so i think the erm, i don't want to do to sound to economists, but as a matter of fact, we know that there is a very strict connection between the development of capitalist societies and the use of violence is this frank from start from mcgee, could be a little bit more specific a and do you think the war in your brain are, is a consequence of that really the differences between russia and the west indies. so

irreconcilable prior to you are this conflict that they could only be solved on the battlefield. i think there are very a very significant meaningful indicators that the conflict was and mounting process, though the tensions were accumulating and the from board sides, there was the perception of weakness. ah, i remember at the end of the soviet union, the west, the celebrated rush. so, sol, at times it will be a very solid in the evening or even room, i would say, even over excited support at the end of the day. and that is the void for russia that was on its knees. and he to use a cliche, but it was a very weak rush and the air rather than treated its own people very poorly. i wasn't really routed that there was more celebrating or rather the very sorry,

condition that russia was. then i would say that there was a hope that the capitalist elite would they call her in russia and begun partner with the capitalists. it heats of the west. so at that time, there was a strategic interest in supporting a very fast transition, a very fast reputation process. remembered american scholars that went to the door to reassure, to do really a defender and very a shock treatments. and remember that because in brazil was more or less the same, many people are talking shock treatment to convert brazil into a hybrid capitalist economy. so i think the, we have to go into a very, very, to the bottom line, i think. and the connection or the partnership among countries, especially the east in the west, really depends on over call me some basic issues that are related to the process of

capital accumulation. the process of domination, true for us. of course, this is utopia, is this utopian. but there has been, let's see, at least 200 years of people, both in the east and the west discussing the limits offer a limitless, ah capitalistic emulation. so how can you established limits to develop into 2 groups or 2 capital accumulation? when the system itself is limitless, i mean there is a trend and a nina trained to over exploit, to the natural resources to destroy the environment. and of course, to over exploit the human labor technology also plays a role here because the accumulation or proceeds there is, let's in an inherent or, or indigenous or an impulse to save on labor or to increase the

productivity of labor introducing technologies that increase productivity. but of course, income distribution does not follow. so there is a connection here between the mod of production, the good, the development model, and the prospectors for the ma, christie bought eternally in international. this figure to a lot of non western thinkers from india, pakistan, africa, china, the philippines now from brazil. and that they come from very different life context of it very different. they're, you know, ideological positions, but they all trust one point that their country should focus, 1st and foremost, on their own practical pragmatic or issues that have a direct relevance to people's lives. and it is, if you know it, it may look like a new or an incarnation of the non aligned movement that we have back in the cold war days. but not the political on the line moment, but rather economic non the line moment. would that all for some hope that those

countries that have a, don't have a stake in this conflict, and they may actually try to defend the fair rules of the game for all i think the main difference between what's going on now and the non alliance era so to speak is lot to 1st of course the economic issue that's so prominent. but i think that another very, very important thing, a process that we are now that did not decrease at that time. it is called era, is really that the role of china. so what i see now, for instance, the bricks, the brazil, russia, india, china, and south africa coalition. and we have just her own witness, like a couple of weeks ago, the chinese government asking we're inviting for an expansion of greeks. so it's not really a reduction of non alignments, but i think the term, the east to west conflict is not the so $320.00 and it says the china beg, in

a fancy to most would back the russian position. but of course, the chinese, their, their own interest as well. and they are also looking forward to her award regime, or it'll of politic or geo political regime in the future where china plays a larger role. there. they've been investing a lot in what we called soft power and importance of trainees, africa relations, and trainees, latin american train and group and the briggs. so i think that is, it looks like where it sounds like the lawn alignment in a sense that's true because economic factors are really very critical here in terms of survival and socialization. protest is the more good, less developed congress, but they think there is another piece on the board. and this is the chinese, the try any scheme to train his interest or those that does not close road either with the u. s. or the russians, they have their own geopolitical strategies,

but correct me them wrong. but my perception of the chinese policies is at least that certainly they are pursuing down interest, but they're, they're letting other countries choose for themselves. they are offering, they're not just coming with answer rhetoric like the united states and trying to persuade everybody to choose values over valuable as well. and you know, occurring all the benefits for washington. but they're actually offering something in return. they're offering a loans, they're offering an infrastructure projects. what have you don't you think that this system while it seems to be on that um a little bit skewed in a, in favor of china. it also gives the other countries more freedom. and my ability to is for them south, i think the, the key shortly terms of booker economics and politic screener is the future of technology. so we've seen, even during the trump administration,

biden does not change debts any can. anyway, i think that the acknowledge it is true here is very important, especially telecommunications there. so of course 5 g and all the discussions about the next generation telecommunication infrastructures. there's the key point, or it's not as much territorial as it is about creating a framework for the expansion of the internet or at the expression of digital services of the digital economy. certainly the chinese or they have invested a lot in technology and they have been very, very, are important in terms of for penetrating different markets with the digital infrastructure as hallway is a global player. or we have now addict august a major major force among children and uter everywhere. so i think that the chinese, again is more sophisticated now. and of course direct investment flooring. derek

investment is an important piece. chinese though invested in brazil, for instance in the elect, electric, and in an energy may directly energy infrastructure. that is all relates to the future of technology on the one hand, and a very important aspect of these new technologies that is currency. there is no, no possibility whatsoever or new word order with other new financial landscape. that's why trainees layer landing is too important, as well as chinese, the veterans in the garage because we know for sure the paper money is something of the best. it's now everything is about digital transfers. wire transfer to see that one of the sanctions. i was suspicion of russia from swiss, which is a longstanding infrastructure for financial transactions. totally wired. a system for wired thrusters the money. so i think that the chinese detainees game,

so to speak, is very much focused on technology, telecommunications, and not only the markets that come out of this new technologist, but also the from a shoe infrastructure that will be built. it's already been under development. it's a new financial landscape that it's very difficult to censor. it's very difficult to control. but you can see that the kids go want one. 0, to teach torrini and b a all. every one is in a rush to achieve the next stage of financial development that depends on telecommunications and professors. wars, let's hold dad. the chinese will be a more pragmatic, more strategic and wiser about the use of these newly accrued currency muscle. dan americans have been anyway, thank you very much for being with us. we have to leave it there. thank you. thank you so much. let's hope for the best. i think that there's a said there may be,

it's not her money that's coming up, but certainly a more complex reality where the cold war to customers will be overcome. thank you very much. would you be with you and thank you for watching post is here again on oil, depart ah ah, [000:00:00;00]

with school. ah, you got a woman and a 5 year old girl a be entailed in the city of marquis. have gotten the don't. yes. for public as a result of shelling from ukraine, force and staff, according to officials from the republic, reports from the faith. this is the shell that landed into the house and fragments how the shell had killed a little 5 year old girl. meta clarity on russia's gowns prom suspends gown