the tragedy of the war in your brain is still visceral and so dramatic that it me easily conceal other group of persons and other victims of the russian western class, which has already adversely affected. many countries, especially in the global south, chose the seemingly far away regional conflict, seen from the largest and one of the most accurately diverse countries in south america. well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by june, 4th, professor of economics at the university of south follow in brazil. professor schwartz is great to see you, great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me in your show, and i hope who will go smoothly through the conversation. despite all the glitches that may come up during, you know, the why fi connection that i'm using right now. there is indeed a huge distance between the 2 of us urines and paul. i'm in moscow but i'm sure people on in your half of the woods are also watching. and. busy following this

counseling because it has already affected much of the global, not directly down to perhaps, indirectly. how much interest do you see from your countrymen to what's happening? you know, roles a part of your brain? well, brazil is really a big territory. as you mentioned, we have a diversity of ethnic groups and at san said, they're quite sooner to the russian history. we are ears to a colonial tradition. so we had cycles of different dominant powers overruling the president work now is to pursue the territory. but the fact is that the shoe size of the country implies that maintaining the order, maintaining peace, or keeping even keeping to the territory is an interior part of one government has always been the main challenge. anyone governing brazil. so in this kind

of look out of an indoor gamlee country we, we, we don't have a tradition, especially among the press, even among the breath. we don't have a tradition of actually engaging with international issues. but of course, one key element in the present situation is the impact of her import of fertilizers, for instance, include agricultural sector in brazil, brazil, highly dependent on the importance of school for, for it to i as there's so in that sense, the shock of her supply chains been disturbed by the conflict that certainly impacts the lead, living conditions in brazil old door. i'm not that sure that the bridge didn't populated softly aware of the connection between higher inflation, francis or food prices in the conflict in, in europe and professor as far as i have, albert can shed some light on those connections. but before we go into economic specifics, i want to ask you a broad question, because here in your isa,

i think we still romanticize the notion of big great games. you know, this, you know, historic, political and diplomatic struggles that are between great powers for central asia, for some other territories. and i was trying the other day by hearing one of the most prominent and most respected russian analysts. very soberly say that it's not the game anymore. it's a fully fledged boy between rough and the west. feel a hybrid more, but a one on de last. do you agree with folks definition that a so we flagged for anyone who was her, of course watching what's going on and follow your new skin very quickly. realize that at least from the narrative perspective, the solid is not that much engaged in that grand narrative. i think they're turbos the west in russia. they are very much engaged in a clearly framed clearly framed narrative. whereas you mentioned the

wes in erasure are friday for for go draw a general for economic issues. but from down here in the south, if you, if you follow the comments by many leaders built in africa or in the south asia in south america, you don't see that kyle narrative. the usual way, let's see, excuse for not being that much engaged in the conflict or not being totally aligned to the u. s. or to the west position. is that the usual, let's say, excuse, is that this is not our business in a says in the 3rd, most of these leaders you will, to united nations. you'll also see this kind of pattern differently from what the heck elizabeth, when we had the cold war, for instance, the cold war was a clear division here in brazil for instance, there was a clear division both between those who are pro us, those who are parole so here,

now what i see is more of a pragmatic position as the digit issue. as i mentioned here in brazil where it would cultural sector so important. as the dizzy issue here is mostly fertilizers. we are highly dependent on the input of fertilizers. what no, seeing the government isn't very much engaged into improving logistics and the use of for fertilizer or even assimilating local industries to develop a frank chemicals, retro chemicals, and all that resume is also very important in that area. but really, i understand the, the major issues that are, of course, and seek in the conflict between russia in the west. but as a matter of fact, those in the south, they don't buy at strictly do political narrative. they're more into, let's see, making sure they're surprise, very pragmatically elder in the i think clearly you can see this,

sir. interestingly enough, irrespective will be more to the right or more to list the or not the i am totally clear about the jubilee decrease. i think the lawyer, it wasn't gonna, as i can ask you something because it, you say that the people are not very attuned to geopolitical implications. but you also come from a region with a very long history of western europe. and specifically american meddling because i interviewed their, your former president little of the silver last year and he's pretty open that day . americans have been treating latin america as if it were their own backyard than whenever there is an authentic move towards democracy. there is always, at least according to him, there is always a who that follows. and in he's of you americans are one of the main blogs on the way of our region democratizing itself. genuinely authentic lee rather than to you know, to see the american plans. i wonder how prominent is this issue from,

from your perspective, how prominent is this issue of democracy and democratic governance? andy, ukrainian counseling because this is obviously part of the western narrative that they are trying to support the, you know, the week or, or the planning ukrainian or democracy do believe it. i think it is this various historically is very constructed. the role of the united states, in terms of merely with the latin american issues, central american, if of course, the one thing is the, the border between the u. s. and mexico. where you have a direct issue from gear territorial. he just concerning the gray. so now they're in a different situation, of course is sir brazil was we southward and we don't have a frontier issue though. there's so many brazilians that also my agree to the u. s . looking for jobs and all that depends on the situation. pressed as when we were under a military military dictatorship, back in the season seventies. or when the democrats into bower in the u. s. and

the o held a very pro democratic her policy in the, in terms of their foreign policy. that was helpful in bringing their militaries in garland resume at that time. on the other hand, before that in when we had the military court in 54, they were very important terms of supporting the brazilian military extreme right into, of course, and becoming early theater ship. if you go even backwards in the history, you can see that, for instance, even the military brazilian military, they were very important at that time, the post war during the 2nd world war. and immediately after the 2nd world war. when the allies where westerns ended russians and the soviet union against the masses are immediately after war. watson as is where defeated there was a can over miracle period when every one was in favor of democracy. and most of the

military that came back from the war effort, they were in favor in democracy and then the doctors with blue areas was ousted. so i didn't really depends on the situation. but of course, from a geopolitical perspective, there has been a very long tradition of, you know, her sharing that planet in terms of her region. so for such as your interest in, of course latin american belongs, so to speak to the u. s. inference, on the other hand, we should not term and we should not, sir, don't play the importance of european inference in brazil, best interest in brazil are the fact that the, despite all the u. s. interests, there is a very important inference. troy european, her powers. this is the colonial, her territorial, former colony for toggle and, and then we where, of course,

very much influenced by different ways of immigration. so you, you will find in the brazilian brazilian society and he, bermonte leads, lot of people that came from italy, from spain, from japan, from germany, and even on russ. i remember being in the brazilians antello, specifically and meeting a lot of fashion immigrants. so you indeed have had a lot of our belittle cultural inference from all around the world. and you said before that, or perhaps this is one of the factors that allows you now to try to maintain your strategic neutrality for the sake of your own economic and perhaps social interest . but i wonder how challenging it is, because we know from other countries that the united states has put a lot of pressure on to other capitals to make them take what they call them. more principles or rather in real terms, they're more prov western physician. well, i like to compare brazil and even south america to triangle issue shoe,

look at the map, you'll see that it's more or less a triangle and where you have that, the sizes of the triangle, you have the pacific ocean, the atlantic ocean and north america dead sir, implies that south america has sir, at least sir oppertunity and opportunity to glee with gardeners or boats to the west into the lease. and of course, there is the 3 digit relationship with, with the us, with francis. and for many years, or we used to see here that the 2nd largest german in gertrude city is some barbara for the presence of german automakers or a chemical industry in the city. and the city of san paula is really impressive. so brazil must from her from her economic perspective, resume must be more pragmatic. at times it will of course, be more alliance. but you see, for instance, it has some interesting system,

very important issues. and there was of the political positioning of the prison going, let's say the middle east issue, which is really already very hot issue or so many tickets. brazil was very important when the state of israel was created back in 194849. brazil was very important at that time. on the other hand, bruce who has a tradition irrespective of the who is the power as a tradition of supporting the policy rights to policy in efforts. so it's, it's for those who are not in brazil, it's might look a little bit strange or a schism frantic. maybe because brazil was always swinging a calling, swinging, or you can call it balancing. and this is what any complicated, complex country would that be expected to do because the world is such a complicated place. it's not divided into good and evil anyway anymore. anyway,

professor, once we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments say, ah ah, ah, in a rush in the state will never see a house. and up with we will van in the european union. the kremlin machine, the state aunt, rush up to date and with the smooth neck, given our video agency, lee,

all band on youtube, a with, with, [000:00:00;00] with mm hm. come back to his appointment, a jilson 4th professor of economics at the university of some palo in brazil because it was before the break. we were talking about this very. 6 difficult,

very challenging balancing act that brazil is trying to maintain on the international scene. and i understand that there are many tricky geopolitical issues. but for example, when, when it comes to issues of human health or, you know, human wellness even very seems that their major choices to be made. and what i'm talking about here is that a couple of years back when they come and um, it was at its highest the americans tried to brush on the you to make sure that you reject the russian made vaccine. and what surprised me at that time is that the united states describe that vaccine out the malign influence. detrimental to you, safety and security. it's actually been put into the report. do you think we, the russians can ever come to any sort of peaceful existence with the americans or with the westerners, but even such

a life sending product as vaccines are categorized as this ready to use, safety and security? well, the same, happy good with the chinese vaccines. the brazilian government law, at least the recent one, i was very, very positions are very much position at the extreme right or the present himself was the negation is and has always been a critic of chinese serv exceeds an even called calbee. the chinese issue and the chinese der malaise. but even at the beginning of the polemic, we can remember that even the award health organization was kind of cautious before all beliefs. the thing that there was the condemning going on, i think the, the relationship in terms of diplomacy, the relationship between the, that russia in, in the west,

as with many order or regions of the words and india, of course china, africa, in, in, in all his history his week we cannot ignore that. we are in a post colonial era. it sir, is of course sir, very clear that the capitalist development in the west became a machine of war. i mean, for, for many, many years. and we, we could, we could always earn sports crisis moments of crisis when only war could. let's see, save capitalism, form a deep, good destruction from revolution revolution or from major crisis. so i think the erm, i don't want to do to sound to economists. but as a matter of fact, we know that there is

a very strict connection between the development of capitalist societies and the use of violence is this from, from the start from mcgee, sorry to be a little bit more specific a, and do you think the war in your brain are, is a consequence of that way. the differences between russia and the west indies, so irreconcilable prior to you are this conflict that they could only be solved on the battlefield. i think there are very a very significant meaningful indicators that the conflict was and mounting crosses though the tensions were accumulating. and the from board sides, there was the perception of weakness. ah, i remember at the end of the soviet union, the west, the celebrated rush. so, so at times it will be a very solid in the evening or even room, i would say, even over excited support,

a dentist. and if the voice were russia that was on its knees and he to use a cliche, but it was a very weak rush at the air rather than treated its own people very poorly. i wasn't really routed that there was, were celebrating, or rather the very story condition that russia was. then i would say that there was a hope that the capitalist elite would say, call her in russia and become a partner with the capitalists. it heats of the west. so at that time there was a strategic interest in supporting a very fast transition, very fast for recreational process. remembered american scholars that went to the door to reassure, to, to really defend her, a very, a shock treatments. and remember that because in brazil was more or less the same, and many people are talking shock treatment to convert brazil into

a hybrid capitalist economy. so i think the, we have to go into a very, very, to the bottom line. i think am the connection or the partnership among countries, especially the east in the west. really depends on, over call me some basic issues that are related to the process of capital accumulation, the process of domination, true for us. of course, this is utopia, is this utopian. but there has been, let's see, at least 200 years of people, both in the east and the west discussing the limits of her limitless, ah, capitalistic relations. so how can you establish limits to development, to growth or to capital accumulation? when the system itself is limitless, i mean there is a trend and a nina trained to over exploit the natural resources to destroy the environment. and of course, to over exploit the human labor,

the large yours to please the rule here. because the accumulation or proceeds, there is an inherent or, or indigenous or an impulse to save on labor or to increase the productivity of labor introducing technologies that increase productivity. but of course, income distribution does not follow. so there is a connection here between the mode of production, the good, the development model, and the perspective for the marg, rusty, brought eternally and international. these i think i'll do a lot of non western thinkers from india, pakistan, africa, china, the philippines now from brazil. and they come from very different life context of it. very different. they're, you know, ideological positions, but they all trust one point that, that country should focus, 1st and foremost,

on their own practical pragmatic or issues that have a direct relevance to people's lives. and it is, if you know it, it may look like a new or an incarnation of the non aligned movement that we have back in the cold war days, but not the political non align moment, but rather economic non the line moment. would that all for some hope that those countries that have a, don't have a stake in this conflict, and they may actually try to defend the fair rules of the game for all. i think the main difference between what's going on now and the non alignment era, so to speak, is lot to 1st of course the economic issue that's too prominent. but i think that another very, very important thing. a process that we are now that did not decrease at that time . it is called era is really the, the role of china. so what i see now, for instance, the bricks, though brazil, russia, in your train and south africa coalition. and we have just, sir, own witless, like

a couple of weeks ago, the chinese government asking or inviting for an expansion of greeks. so it's not really a reduction of non alignment, but i think the term, the east to west conflict is not the so straightforward in it says the china beg, in a fair so most backs the russian position. but of course, the chinese, their, their own interest as well. and they are also looking forward to her award regime, or it'll have politic or geo political regime in the future where china plays a larger role. there. they've been investing a lot in what we called soft power and importance of trainees, africa relations, and trainees, latin american train and, and the bricks. so i think that is, it looks like where it sounds like the lawn alignment in a sense that it's true because economic factors are really very critical here in

terms of survival and supposition. broadest is the more good, less developed congress, but they think there is another piece on the board. and this is the trainees with try any scheme to train his interest. i don't know, close roads either with the u. s. or the russians. they have their own geopolitical strategies, but correct me them wrong. but my perception of the chinese policies is at least that certainly they are pursuing down interest, but they're letting other countries choose for themselves. they are offering, they're not just coming with empty rhetoric like the united states, and trying to persuade everybody to choose the values over valuable as well. and you know, occurring all the benefits for washington. but they are actually offering something in return. they're offering a loans, they're offering an infrastructure projects. what have you, don't you think that this system, while it seems to be a set of elements queued in a,

in favor of china. it also gives other countries more freedom and my ability to is for themselves. i think the, the key issue in terms of booker economics and politic screener is the future of technology. so we've seen, even during the trump administration biden, there's not changed at any can. anyway, i think that the acknowledge an issue here is very important, especially telecommunications. there, so of course 5 g and all the discussions about the next generation telecommunication infrastructures. there's that key point or it's not as much territorial as it is about creating a framework for the expansion of the internet or the expression of digital services of the digital economy. so i think the chinese or the have invested a lot in technology and they have been very, very, are important in terms of for

a penetrating different markets with the digital infrastructure as hallway is a global player. and we have now dig dog registered major major force among children and youth earl everywhere. so i think that the chinese again is more sophisticated now and there of course, direct investment freeburg investment is an important piece. chinese though invested in brazil, for instance in the elect, electric, and in an energy may directly energy infrastructure. that is all relates to the future of technology on the one hand, and a very important aspect of these new technologies that is currency. there is no, no possibility whatsoever or new word order with other new financial landscape. that's why trainees layer landing is too important. as well as trainees, the veterans in the garage because we know for sure the paper money is something of

the best. it's now everything is about digital transfers. wire transfer to see that one of the sanctions. and i was suspension of russia from which is a longstanding infrastructure for financial transactions. totally wired. the system for wired thrusters the money. so i think that it, chinese, the chinese game so to speak is very much focused on technology, telecommunications, and not only the markets that come out of this new technology, but also the financial infrastructure that will be pure. it's already be under development. it's a new financial landscape that it's very difficult to censor. it's very difficult to control. but you can see that the kids go want one. 0, to teach torrini and b o d. so every one is in a rush to achieve the next stage of financial development that depends on telecommunications and professor force. let's hold dad. the chinese will be a more pragmatic,

more strategic and wiser about the use of these newly accrued currency muscle than the americans have been. anyway, thank you very much for being with us. we have to leave it there. thank you. thank you so much. let's hope for the best. i think that there's a said there may be, it's not her money that's coming up, but certainly a more complex reality where the cold war, i think awesome is, will be overcome. thank you very much. would you be with you and thank you for watching pope just here again on the walls apart. ah

ah ah, since the break away of the doughnuts, people's republic was been raging and don't boss ukrainian. artillery it's been shelling civilian townsend, mining village. is that your more very lovely deal with what i grew up with a deal about one of the company a little above the whole of the city of global school. give us volunteer for them. in less than 3 months, the west ukraine narrative has been turned on its head. ukraine is not waiting, it's steadily losing. the west is not unified. in fact, divisions are wide me. the russian economy is weathering,

massive sanctions. western economies are in trouble. who will blink 1st? a with our g visits a home in the don. yes. republic where a civilian was killed in an attack by ukrainian force with an indian community in russia provides critical medical supplies to people in the don bath as part of a newly established charity fund. and brent oil prices exceed