hello, tie her instant shit. this is hanging. it's great to see you to talk to you. thank you very much for time. now let me start the diarrhea that i mentioned in my introduction, that house, and that's the biblical version. how that is divided against itself cannot stand, wouldn't be fair to say that the world as we know it today, is perilously divided or has it always been that way? well, there are moments a division. i mean, there's always division within society. tells me you can have, but today what we face is unparalleled. we see unwinding of an international world order that the u. s. put in place after world war 2. created the cold war. there was this momentary euphoria during the term of reagan when it seemed like us one, but then that was quickly all the goodwill was quickly in the carriage going into

afghanistan on the invasion of iraq. and now you see, say you're just looking to blame others for working. you start looking at lower middle, especially white american. they're on the by margaret on one side. they are charged that they're the problem of society. on the other hand, they see that they're not increase the last 40 years, i mean, going sideways. meanwhile, people on wall street are making more money to add to rich men in the united states well is greater than the entire nation. so when you start looking at these, all these and what's happening within us, it provided, but that division has now shred. you mentioned the number of historical people starting in the 2nd world war. and perhaps even before that, you know,

the world has chin has seen many challenges over the last century and it yet, i heard you recently say that this could be one of the worse patches for humanity as you go through a, in, over a 100 years. that's a pretty traumatic assessment. what made you reach it? well, that's what i was, meaning that you have political once or an army concert long with us changing a global, retreating from them. you know, i think you have an economic transportation transformation where literally going through a paradigm shift and it's not going very well. china is rising economically, west jewelry and digital revolution. it's really going to have as much as an industrial revolution. i mean, we started thinking about the number of this place, it will be truck drivers,

drivers, ash, cruise ships, things become more economist why, because that's why these things will happen to people that. busy we know economically, money houses in logic and it was through today with the amount of money that china because they have a stable government in russia when russia said, okay, you want well payable back up now, so strong, weaker their own kind of constantly going on the all the logic, all the ideas that were in the past, i no longer valid. there's a lot of cation racing, that change is being very difficult or power. it's like

a shock. i ask you something on the issue of russia just to narrow it a little bit because you already painting a very broad and pretty complex picture for our audience. but if you look at the many of the western media, you get an idea that the current confrontation between russia and the west over your brain is one of the major reasons. if not the major reason for things falling apart. i think your partially answered my question, but i'm going to ask it anyway to give you an opportunity to perhaps, to elaborate on that. is it indeed the fact that you know, the, the russian action into your brain, saturday scales in motion of was this, were those the balancing ukraine in themselves, the consequence of something that was people, i don't know if you, if you look at a fusions safety since

they all said that any action ukraine would bring more with this is kitchen here, this is key and we are safe. there is no, never any question. no one's not, not true or anything like that. so nato expansion was calculated to create a reaction. innovation came, that is not, excuse me, i'm not in favor was i am neither. am i right away and i don't think there are the issue is if i back you in order a new start coming out clean and other her, i can't say we did one thing. i mean, you asked me a couple pushing russia into the situation with that was not, excuse me, back, but you know, and unfortunately, you know, after iraq, which strategy will they use? probably want to use other country like their war to weaken enemy. i was

concerned about this one crane was shot interlining. irritate, and rain. so really dangerous when countries to use other countries as proximal. all mean it's kind of your estimation is probably not possible. probable. you're starting to see that already . now, mr. chang, and in another interview, you're also called the situation and ukraine. a boy that was deliberately created for p r purposes. and that caught my attention because it's hard to imagine what kind of p r. results would justify know the only the amount of suffering and loss, the ukrainians, and the russians are going through. but also the ripple effect throughout the world

. that base price that is having and countries that have absolutely nothing to do with either russia, ukraine or the united states for that reason. well, i mean, i'm not, i'm not a favor of american inception exception. the idea that you asked him to do whether you ever necessary to bring the world into a state of democracy that america likes free markets liberal values, but the proxy that is the us trying to push the world working world direction. but it's using everything that everyone else is doing. i mean, starting war, that's not liberal, it's working countries to changing regime that has nothing to do with the moxie open market sort of way. except the market itself is not dominated by in all its

major industries by 2 or 3 players who are pursuing their own economic agenda ethics, their people, us. this is our situation where it's failing at home. but rather than the front that what they're doing, blaming others abroad. so when you start talking about ukraine, you have a situation in the u. s. wants to minimize a country that it does not thing which part of the national order in the way it was already know how many regime change. yeah, we want to get a little i think it's a country that has more nuclear weapons than anybody else. what happens if you could stabilize it? hey, it seems we madness. yes, it's out there. and one of us is trying to prove that it's like when everyone else is wrong, despite the fact that can lead by example. now you mentioned the so called international

order, and one of the things i said hearing here in the russia is that russia actions in ukraine as hard to explain and hard to justify as they are. i may have been based not on some historical grievances on, not even on the thread perception, but rather on the whole beloved objective calculation of where the world is moving, how the balance of power in the world is shifting and the conclusion that even if the worst case scenario materialize this and all ties with the west that ca, that russia can survive and accomplish its development goals. goals by associating itself more closely with non west. and by doing that, you know, sort of strengthening this multi polar world that it wants to see, ah, what do you think about that? do you think that se utopian ideology thing that has some kernel of truth to?

okay. so let's look at a couple of issues you know, president who laid out very clearly and it's just hearing snitch lasha had said, i mean we'd spoken german at the end of the all the law. and so we're looking forward to our home and that i clearly identified, rushing, seeing, and then you ration. and then, you know, 7 years later he gets up and he says, you have like you to expand into areas. you said you would not, you will not allow us to have a home to we are therefore no choice but to try to destroy the international order that you created. that is a nation, a rush or express discipline. so no one would be surprised

that you know, russia yes, yeah. we do not like this international lead ordered by us, but you goes along with because it is not fair. other countries, there is a multicultural, and that can be clearly illustrated by what's been happening on its own way, mexico, on its own way. right. you know, i mean, quite clearly things have shifted in that direction now. well, how shaking the world economy arrives. how this is lives from this actually i, you know, it could be from the action because right now we're talking about shortage power. and these are going to affect countries talking about middle east africa. these are countries in asia, countries, not where we compete for food at the prices that they're going to be. they do not

have the wherewithal power. without food, you cannot live without energy. you cannot run your economy. and without running your economy, you can pay your international. so this is why i haven't very, really outlook on the situation now. what the u. s. i all will power should be doing it this way. recognizing that this is a critical time in history. this is about the survival of the human race. well, mister turner, we are also at a very critical point in our conversation because we need to take a break now. but we will be back in just a few moments. ah, me or i i my name is frank from a research and so adoption got in a moment in any age,

13 or 14 or violent towards those people because we believe that we're in the race . we're here 1st country being part of that movement. i got a sense of power when i felt our attention when i felt invisible and accepted. when i talked a level of life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by for skin me on the white supremacists in the us and canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other it out. there's 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is de radicalization where belief systems ology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it. our

13 can. you spoke with me through both, both the models, you need to do both nelson's meals with a, with a form already. a lot of them bought a lot with all they need that levy and he's not the guy with with

the personal number given that we're ready to with with a welcome back to one of the with a they're a senior fellow as they tie her institute messaging and before the break, we were talking about the, the ripple effect that the ukranian crisis is causing around the world. and all the russia is bearing a lot of pain. the pain from it, because of the western, is to cut it off completely from the rest of the global economy and as challenging as it is both for the russian government and for the russian people.

i'm hearing a paradoxical idea here in moscow that you know, this amount that cannot make the jo political suffering right now, may actually inoculate russia against greater pains, a few years down the line. when the western lat, our western center is system will disintegrate even further. now over russia has a choice at this point of time, but do you think other countries may also think about it about perhaps flooring that dependence on the west or you know, trying to establish that own self sufficiency and survival ability. in the case, similar sanctions are applied to them or fax them for no reason of their own making. well, yeah, i mean, one of the major issues that people haven't really talked about in russia is able

to survive this. this will be another example how the world is truly like color and not the u. s. indicate, you know, catch everybody. and if you don't go along, i mean, it looks like history a change in your years. in iran, venezuela, you have cuba long. it hasn't changed the case in right now, how, how russia deals with the news going to be very, very important about whether in the movement towards not only a multi whole one in which economic activities market and production are increasingly moving. as is rush my, you know, not, not my choice. so in terms of how we can work it out, russia didn't do that. a lot of is one of the things that is most noticeable as we talked about with us, was saying that we crush your economy. lead by, you know, say,

dollars, and therefore your precious paper are well listening very well. it's actually above where it was. so i mean, at this juncture, there's a certain independence. so when you start looking at your integration, you're seeing the lesser of american info and that is going to be traumatic. don't want to celebrate that us. why percent of the people, julian, 20 percent of the world that goes away there will be additional hardships. so right now, yes, it's very well place because it has energy who may not have all the extra luxuries . there might be problems be purchasing. but eventually, those supply lines will be filled up media from brazil, from china,

hostile country. right now, the national class tries to make it mean that one who no remaining non line right in this situation. but the fact is, majority in the world, not only one, but also population. that is actually not interest war, that was us. that is attractive. so mister, turn in the makeup of this new world order to certificate accessible depend on what find a very relationship the country will pursue. and i think the example of russia and china over the last couple of decades is quite instructive here because both capital, like decide their relationship as a, as a model for other countries. they see, you know, di trying the way they are structured as the container within which immediate challenges, hardships,

competing interests will be held. i've heard both the russians and the chinese suggested that's who'd be a good model to proceed. you agree with that? do you think it could be extrapolated other countries? do you ultimately think that jewel politics has reached the point where various countries can put the strategic shares, concerns above you needed one side of the game? i think it depends on the country and their situation. i mean, i do a lot of work on the unique i was very well educated in the person in ministry was talking about high ideal about the democracy, about liberalism, all of these things. and that the next moment part is answer was all about what's in the korean. so you either have these ideals and you try to follow them. or

you just say every now, this is really the danger of marketing international or that whole world. people start fracturing, they just say, well, with every, every country for themselves. and i do think that nations like russia, china, actually us in europe as a major players, is leaders have to lead my example. and that means less wars, less selling of arms and things like that. and i don't just us, i mean, across i don't know how i've done it, has made life better for anybody. you look in the united states right now. the problem is we don't have enough, i would say the problem was we have to, you mentioned the couple of individuals who have benefited from it. maybe it's about them at the end of the day. yeah, well, right now, i mean europe is awake, the us positioning out to be the bread basket of europe

and also the energy supplier. and that is not something that everybody you're comfortable with because they're very aware that the u. s. has course, whenever a lot was necessary for the united states on other countries and i'm talking about the terrace now we're, we're only one election away from going right back to where donald trump was. all right, and then you can after him, you can have another flip flop. how do you run a world other country when you're constantly blocking back between medical ideas and you know, it's just, it's just not possible in this media undoing or united inability to plan to provide a predictable future business on it. you know, people have to know that they can, if they can't do that, there's no way for lation. it matches,

we should some people in the united states feel that by you lose the house and probably the senate. when that happens, you haven't workable government. and as he just mentioned, inflation is, is a problem not only for the united states, but very much for the rest of the world. and i think this is also what makes our seemingly abstract apps or discussion much less abstract because this lofty concepts like our world order has a direct impact on the prize of a loaf of bread and the local supermarket. them. many people around the world, they seeing it right now, but that wasn't today case. that wasn't the case even a decade ago, the united states was able to conduct many wars, but without its population ever feel filling effective. what do you think has changed in the world? to bring that home to make the americans fill the pinch of the actions that their

government is initiating on their behalf. well, we did feel pain. i'm not gonna stand with them last year. we've been playing wars. there's no strategy to win. an ability to lose roll and joe never knew about it. i mean, he may have gotten some news on the he's last wasn't about it because he was being financed with that was 4 trillion dollars between the more you don't notice it because you don't pay that government. but right now the u. s. situation where it's overloaded with that, especially because more than that and they're not in the position where they can even have them drastic changing monetary policy. in order to hear that you have the fed, which is pushing the country into a recession, if not, depression,

doesn't meet up in their mind at any mission to we inflate the economy after the worst was back in raising race at the fed level is great. tertiary economy, jobs the amount of nations, et cetera, but it does not make one little read and it does not create one barrel of oil, and those are our chronic shorter hughes call, my current situation, logistics and also the tuition in ukraine when they don't understand that and this is what is really bothersome when you have a really smart people who are doing really dumb things and it just feel, well, i think the question is still open of how smart they are. and i think that brings us to these long discussion about. 1 what constitutes good

governance, because from the chinese perspective, what is and effective governance is a craving, some basic conditions for, you know, good, productive human life and development. rather than feeding people are some on ideological ideas of why freedom is, is more beneficial than the so called photography. the americans are still framing on that politics in the, in this way of freedom versus, or liberty versus a chopper. so do you think that's, that's an effective narrative in this day in age? do you think other countries, by the lot in the united states, i mean you have people on opposite sides of the mentally willing to engage in a civil war. that's what we had with the small people who literally wanted to tear down the society area. many of the people were in the armed forces. the police are now content. it's part of the system medicine

america. so yeah, you know, nice idea that you know, everything is solved by a valid remark and free speech. it doesn't work. and you know, right out in china, if you ask people if that's what they tell you absolutely not working or done the violence in united states division people. why dance? you know how so? sure. i want to give you a vaccine on, i'm sorry, my, my, my disease to everybody. that's my right. where are the responsibility then in china, you know, they go on the other side responses society responsibility ahead of the in nutri desires. it's not about like there are right responsibility with the individual and then us it has become magnified and how can i possibly have like if i haven't

and you have politicians who are out there playing, playing with these kind of nonsense. and all it is need more than they want power, but they have no idea what they're going to accept christ trying to create more nap . well mr. chang in the parents. they didn't get any more to mystic in the 2nd part of our discussion. but we have to leave it here. thank you very much for your insights today. and thank you for watching hope here again on the well the part ah with mm

ah. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on offense, bearing dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk with

a question of them when you thought about being nuclear. but she was not going to flow in a border with theory review. shouldn't actually keep and you might look and you live in the schools. if you look on the initial be one of club, not significant dealer pasta really want to be honest, can use to put value a new one. you know, you did origin, but he also still listed on the lewis with him. okay. i didn't know so much of that . going to thought that i'm going to believe just to see, but you would you what i see the student bussey's dog luke you motivation says dc a.