divided they fall, this may be one of the all the most popular motorists in human history is cited in a fable. and they have reported saga in the new testament and of course in multiple speeches of american presidents. and that's true on personal or national level. could that also apply to the world? to discuss that i'm now joined by a tank and senior fellow at the time her institute is turned in. it's great to see you. would you talk to thank you very much for time. now let me start that. the idea that i mentioned in my introduction that a house and that's the biblical version. how that is divided against itself cannot stand, wouldn't be fair to say that the world as we know it today, is perilously divided or has it always been that way? well, there are moments a division. i mean there's always division within 5 years. and some tells you can happen,

but today what we faced is unparalleled. unwinding of an international world order that the u. s. put in place after world war 2. it created the cold war. there was this momentary euphoria during the term of ronald reagan when like us, why? but then that was quickly, all the goodwill was quickly spent in terms of going into afghanistan and it was more than the invasion of iraq. and now you say you're just looking to blame others where it was working. you start looking at lower middle class, especially white american. they're on the, by margaret, on one side that they are, you know, the charge that there's a problem society and the other hand, they see that they're not increase the last 40 years, i mean, going sideways. meanwhile, you know people on wall street or making more money to add

a to richman in the united states. well is greater than the entire nation. so when you start reading all of these and what's happening within us, but that division has now shred. you mentioned the number of historical people starting in the 2nd world war and perhaps even before that you know, they won't have to have seen many challenges over the last century. and yet i've heard few recently say that this would be one of the worst patches for humanity to go through in over a 100 years. that's a pretty dramatic assessment. what made you, we should well, that's what i was, meaning that you have political ones are concerned because along with us changing a global, retreating from them. you know, i think you have an economic transportation transformation where

literally going through a paradigm shift and it's not going very well. china is rising economically, west jewelry and visual revolution. it's really going to have as much as the industrial revolution. i mean me start thinking about the number of this place, it will be truck drivers, taxi drivers, ash, cruise ships, things become more economist why, because that's why these things happen to people that. busy we know economically, money has its own logic and it was through see that today with the amount of money that china because they have a stable government in russia when russia said, okay, you want well payable,

right back up now, so strong, weaker, so there unintended constantly going on the all the logic, all the ideas that were in the past, i no longer valid. there's been a lot of change and racing that change is being very difficult or power. it's like a shock. i ask you something on the issue of russia just to narrow it a little bit because you're already paying to get very broad and pretty complex picture for our audience. but if you look at the many of the western media, you get an idea that the current confrontation between russia and the west over your brain is one of the major reasons. if not the major reason for things falling apart. i think your partially answered my question, but i'm going to ask it anyway to give you an opportunity to perhaps to elaborate on that. is it indeed the fact that you know, the,

the russian action into your friends, sad base chaos in motion of was this, were those the balance in ukraine in themselves the consequence of something that was people i don't know if you, if you look at a seasons safety since they all said that any action ukraine would bring with this is kitchen here, this is key and we are safe. there is no question, no one's not, not true or anything like that. so nato expansion is calculated to create a reaction. it is actually a king that does not excuse, i'm not in favor was neither am i right away and i don't think there are the issue is if i back you in order

a new start coming out clean and other her i can't say we did one thing, i mean, you asked me a couple question russia into the situation with that was not, excuse me back, but you know, and unfortunately, you know, after iraq which strategy where they use profit. i want to use other country like there was the week of enemy i was concerned about this one crane was shot interlining. irritate, and rain. so really dangerous when countries to use other countries as proc me, call it kind of your estimation. it's probably not possible. probable chart to see that already know mr. chang and in another interview,

you're also called the situation ukraine. a boy that was deliberately created for p r purposes. and that caught my attention because it's hard to imagine what kind of p r results would justify. know the only the amount of suffering and loss, the ukrainians, and the russians are going through, but also the ripple effect throughout the world. that base price is, is having and countries that have absolutely nothing to do with either russia, ukraine or the united states for that reason. well, i mean, i'm not, i'm not a favor of american inception exception. the idea that you asked to do whether you ever necessary to bring the world into the state of democracy. that america likes free markets liberal values, but the proxy that is, that you're trying to push the world working world direction,

but it's using everything that everyone else is doing. i mean, starting war that's not liberal, it's working countries to changing regime that has nothing to do with moxie open markets or, except the market itself is not dominated by in all its major industries by 2 or 3 players who are pursuing their own economic agenda. ethics, their people, us is our situation where it's failing at home, but rather than fun, what they're doing is blaming others abroad. so when you start talking about ukraine, you have a situation where the u. s. wants to minimize a country that it does not thing which part of the national order in the way it was already know how many regime change. yeah,

we want to get little i think it's a country that has more nuclear weapons than anybody else. what happens if you could stabilize it? hey, it's madness. yes, it's out there and why us is trying to prove that it's like when everyone else is wrong, despite the fact that can lead by example. now you mentioned the so called international order, and one of the things i said, hearing here in the russia, is that russia, the actions in ukraine as hard to explain and hard to justify as they are. i may have been based not on some historical grievances on, not even on the threat perception, but rather on the cold blooded objective calculation of where the world is moving, how the balance of power in the world is shifting and the conclusion that even if

the worst case scenario materialize this and all ties with the west that ca, that russia can survive and accomplish its development goals. goals by associating itself more closely with non west. and by doing that, you know, sort of strengthening this multi polar world that it wants to see, ah, what do you think about that? do you think that se utopian ideology thing that has some kernel of truth to? okay, so let's, let's upgrade a couple of issues. laid out very clearly and is lasha had spoken german at the end of the problem was looking forward to your home and that i clearly identified rushing when you ration and then you know, 7 years later he gets up and he says,

you have like us to expand into areas you said you would not, you will not allow us to have a home to. we are therefore no choice with the try to destroy the go again, international order that you created, that is a nation, you know, a, what the rush he expresses. so no one would be surprised that you know, russia. yeah, we do not like this international lead ordered by us, but you goes along with because it is not fair to other countries. there is a multicultural, and that can be clearly illustrated by what's been happening on its own way, mexico, on its own way. right. you know, i mean, quite clearly things have shifted in that direction now. well, how shaking the world economy arrives, how this is lives from this one?

actually, i, you know, it could be from the ash because right now we're talking about shortage power shortage. and these are going to affect countries. i'm talking about middle east africa. these are countries in asia, country setting not happen where with all the compete for food at the price that they're going to be, do not have the wherewithal power. without food, you cannot live without energy, you cannot run your economy. and without running your economy, you cannot pay your international. so this is why i haven't very, really outlook on the situation. now, what the us all will power should be doing it this way. recognizing that this is the critical time in history. this is about the survival of the human race. well, mr. town, we are also at a very critical point in our conversation because we need to take a break now, but we will be back in just a few moments. for me,

i use me the question of all not being clear up he was going to but he was looking to live in california. additional the white glove not to get really well. you can use the book value and you do watch it, but also to be done a lot easier for a what

i see the steamy bus is no growth. you medation says diesel, you do come both. ah ah

i welcome back to one of the boys with a senior fellow at they tie her institute, mr. chang. and before the break we were talking about the people a fact that the ukrainian crisis is causing around the world. and obviously, the russia is bearing a lot of pain, be most pain from it because of the western attempts to cut it off completely from the rest of the global economy. and as challenging as it is both for the russian government and for the russian people. i'm hearing a paradoxical idea here in moscow that you know, this amount of canal nick and the geopolitical suffering right now may actually inoculate russia against greater please. if you years down the line of when the western lat, westlake center, it says system will disintegrate. even further, now always the russia, her choice at this point of time. but do you think other countries may also think

about it about perhaps flooring that dependence on the west or you know, trying to establish the own self sufficiency and survival ability. in the case, similar sanctions are applied to them or i fax them for no reason of their own making. well, yeah, i mean, one of the major issues that people haven't really talked about in russia is able to survive this. this will be another example of how the world is truly like polar, not the us and dictate everybody. and if you don't go along the crash, i mean, look, look at the history of change in your years in iran, bennett, where you have cuba launch. it hasn't changed in right now, how, how russia deals with the news going to be very,

very important about whether in the movement towards not only a multi whole one in which economic activities market in production are increasingly moving. as is rush, my not, not my choice. so in terms of how we do that, a lot of is one of the things that is most noticeable as we talked about with us, was thinking that we crush your economy li, bye dollars. and therefore, your precious paper are well rules. well, it's actually a bug where a month. so, i mean, at this juncture, there's a certain independence. so when you start looking at your integration, you're seeing less of america and that is going to be

traumatic. don't want to celebrate that us. why percent of the people, julian, 20 percent of that demand goes away, there will be additional hardships. so right now, yes, russia is very well placed because we have energy who may not have all the extra luxuries. there might be problems getting parts of things, but eventually the supply lines will be filled up media through brazil from china, hostile country. right now the international class tries to make it mean that one who know we're not on line in this situation, but the fact is, majority in the world, not only one, but also population. that is actually not interested in war. that was us, that it's remotely attractive. so mister, turn in the makeup of this new world order. it's just

a clinic and accessible depend on what kind of relationship the countries will pursue. and i think the example of russia and china over the last couple of decades is quite instructive here because both capital like decide their relationship as the, as a model for other countries. they see, you know, i try, they, the way they're structured as a container within the which immediate challenges, hardships, competing interest will be held. i've heard both the russians and they try to just that, that's who'd be a good model to proceed. you agree with that? do you think it could be extrapolated other countries? do you ultimately think the jewel politics has reached the point where various countries can put the strategic shares, concerns above the immediate one side of gain? it depends on the country and their situation. i mean, i do

a lot of work on the i was very well educated in the person who in ministry was talking about high ideal about the democracy, about liberalism, all of these things. and that the next moment, the 2nd part is answer was all about what you know. so, i mean, you either have these ideals and you try to follow them. or you just say every, now this is really the danger of emerging international or that multi whole world people start fracturing. they just say, well, with every, every country for themselves. and i do think that nations like russia, china, initially us in europe as a major players, is leaders have to lead my example. and that means less wars, less selling of arms and things like that. and i don't just us, i mean, you know,

across the board, i don't know how a gun it has made life better for anybody. you look in the united states right now, going to problem was we don't have not. i would say the problem was we have to, you mentioned a couple of individuals who have benefit from it. maybe it's about them at the end of the day. yeah, well, right now, i mean europe is awake, the us positioning out to be the bread basket of europe and also the energy supplier. and that is not something that everybody you're comfortable with because they're very aware that the u. s. has course, whenever a lot was necessary for the united states on other countries and i'm talking about the terrace now we're, we're only one election away from going right back to where donald trump was. all right, and then you can after him, you can have another flip flop. how do you run

a world country when you're constantly blocking back between medical ideas and you know, it's just, it's just not possible. and this will be undoing united inability to plan provide a predictable future business on it. you know, people have to know that they can plan if they can't do that. there's no way for lation. it matches some people in the united states feel that the buyer is going to lose the house and probably sell it when that happens, you haven't workable government. and as he just mentioned, the inflation is, is a problem, not only for the united states, but very much for the rest of the world. and i think this is also what makes our seemingly abstract apps are discussion much less abstract because this lofty

concepts like our world order has a direct impact on the prize of a loaf of bread in the local supermarket. then many people around the world, they seeing it right now, but that wasn't a day case. that wasn't the case even a decade ago, the united states was able to conduct many wars, but without its population ever selling effective. what do you think has changed in the world to bring that home to make the americans fill the pinch of the actions that their government is initiating on their behalf? well, we did feel pain. i'm not gonna sandwich. last failure. we've been playing wars. there's no strategy to win an ability to lose. we're all joe never knew about it. i mean, he may have gotten some news on the he's lost wasn't about it because he was being financed with that was 4 trillion dollars between us and more.

you don't notice that because you don't pay that government, but right now the u. s. situation where it's overloaded with that, especially because these more and then come with that. and they're not in the position where they can even have them. so i mean, traffic changing monetary policy in order to hit us, you have the fed, which is pushing the country into a recession, if not, depression, doesn't meet up in their mind at any mission to we inflate the economy after the worst was back in raising race at the fed level is great, tertiary economy, jobs the amount of the national, et cetera, but it does not make one little read and it does not create one barrel of oil. and

those are our chronic shorter hughes call, my current situation, logistics and also the tuition ukraine. they don't understand that. and this is what is really bothersome when you have a really smart people who are doing really dumb things and it just feel, well, i think the question is still open of how smart they are. and i think that brings us to these long discussion about. 1 what constitutes good governance, because from the chinese perspective, what is and effective governance is a craving some basic conditions for, you know, good, productive human life and development. rather than feeding people are some on ideological ideas of why freedom is it, is more beneficial than the so called photography. the americans are still framing on that politics in the, in this way of freedom versus, or liberty versus

a talker. so do you think that's, that's an effective narrative in this day in age? do you think other countries, by the lot in the united states, i mean you have people on opposite sides of the literally willing to engage in a civil war. that's what we had with the small people who literally wanted to tear down the society area. many people were in the armed forces there in the police. americans had heart medicine america. so yeah, you know, if i had that, you know, everything is solved by a valid remark and free speech. it doesn't work. and you know, right down in china, if you ask people that's what they will tell you. absolutely not. looking at the gun, the violence, united states division people. why can't you know

how i want to give you a vaccine on my, my, my disease to everybody. that's my right. where are the responsibility then in china you know, they go on the other side responses, society responsibility ahead of neutralizing desires. it's not about like there are right, the responsibility, the individual and grouping us it has become magnified and how can i possibly have like if i hadn't and you have politicians who were out there li planes are these kind of nonsense. and all it is we need more that they want power, but they have no idea what they're going to accept christ trying to create more natural. well, mr. king and the parents, they didn't get any more than a stick in the 2nd part of our discussion. but we have to live up here. thank you

very much for your insights today. and thank you for watching hope here again on the well, the part, ah, with me. oh, my name is franklin richardson, philadelphia got in the moon in an age 13 going on 14. and we were vowing towards those people because we believed that were this race were here 1st. and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power when i felt powerless,

we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i felt and lovable life after hey, is an organization that was founded by for a skinhead nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. was 2 parts to getting out of a violent extreme was the 1st part of disengagement which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization work belief systems audiology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it. validate with

ah, a question of them when you thought, i mean you can leave a do you live in the schools? if you look on the initial, be one of them not to get a little while to be honest, can use to put value a new one unit you did or 2, but you also still with the done those a few came okay, i didn't know such as like going to thought that i'm going to be just a you do what i see the senior bussey's though group you motivation says decent it dumbo sub with.