ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered i'm funeral about western leaders have a habit of reminding us nothing about ukraine without you. right. this is rather curious as ukraine has been, a western client states since the co, against the democratically elected government in 2014. but there may be a copy out here in it's called, wag the dog. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess towards some

u. l. e. in budapest, he is a podcast, the gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow having survey morrow, he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis strap all or a gentleman, cross type rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciated. well, let's go to budapest, george, i need your infinite wisdom here to explain something to me because it's some of these things that are being said about ukraine coming from the west. just don't make any a coherent, logical meaning for me. so we have um, the bite administration again, flip flopping, sending advanced muscle systems to you, correct. but they're given assurances so that there's, you know, they're not going to be fired. russia. ok. i don't know how you enforce an in assurance like that when the ukraine under zalinski is doing everything as possible to why the war to get nato more involved. and then we have salt and berg. you know,

this character that runs nato. nato is a defensive alliance. easily says, every other breath, he said, you know, nato's southern burke says ukraine should, shouldn't stop. i shouldn't drop rather goal of driving russia out of crimea. so you're getting this missile system from the connected states. and the head of nature was saying, go ahead, hit crimea if you want, because you know, you could, may consider it occupied territory. russia says it will sovereign territory. and we know repeatedly from the kremlin a sovereign territory of russia is under military assaults. they will use everything, everything is on the table as they say. so, george, can you explain this to me? what are these assurances and is nato on the same page as the vitamin minister? well, i think come shoulder look does seem to be on the same page as the by your administration because the united states, i think i really doesn't care about ukraine. i think it just simply wants to extend

this war for as long as possible. however much death and destruction is wrong. as a consequence. they don't care. i mean, they, when lloyd austin, the defense secretary said, we want to weaken russia. that's obviously not the policy is even the biden try to deny it in his head last week. but that's what the united states is doing. now. the europeans, you know, the so called old euro, that defense secretary donald rumsfeld, talk about the france, germany. they get it, they want this and they think this is just not, it's just destroying the continent of europe and the europe will not recover from this. but they don't have any sway. because ultimately, ukraine, as long as is being fed, you know, an infinite amount number of arms from the united states. it can just keep going. and i love that it's like giving an alcoholic,

a free reign of the booze in the bar is getting like more gambler, you know, you have unlimited credit. and that's what the, by the administration is doing. you know, whatever you want, we'll give it to you. you know, one day they say, you know, going to send you this multiple large rocket systems, then they change their mind if they will, will make sure that the missiles are short range, you know, they're going to change their mind on that as well. so so therefore this tool can just simply continue no, no matter how awful it or if it's the consequences or i suppose it until they run out of ukrainians. there was one point where it in exactly a still simberg statement to the cleanings was quite interesting to me because the nato in its leadership are just overwhelm. they finally found a reason to exist and they wanted to go on on. this is a bureaucracy that has been searching for a mission, and now they found upon it and they actually force the issue by ignoring russia.

russia on diplomatic notes of december 17th, remember one to washington, 12, brussels. they ignored it. they wanted this to happen. and they've gotten what they wanted, but you know, the, at the end of the day when george was saying here, i mean, this is just, mission creep is not, and they want to keep going as long as possible without really, really any kind of coherent thought about goal of this war, go ahead. example. if you remember before the ukraine crisis, which started in 2014, the propose of nato was a quite a strength, for instance, in 2013. they said that the men aims to protect again, pirates in the african coast and against the trafficking of human beings. so it is good, but though you don't need a having a military allowance like not to fight against that. so of course the, your current crisis was a very, very great opportunities, so not to justify just to, to be,

to be in place. and the problem know is that if the lows in ukraine and they're losing and you can actually today. so is a loser. what's the purpose of natural? because are you sure, quite cynical, for instance, what will happen if russia decided to invade, for instance, the baltic countries to protect the russian speaking population will not all wheel and get more than they did with ukraine. i don't think so. i mean, rush, i won't do it. ok, but just just to represent that they can do, they can't do model that they are doing know, and i was just isn't letting me put in a set of regarding the i am us a weapon system that actually ukraine has already such a system and the name is it's a 90 kilometers a range and it's exactly the same and i am just but you have, i don't know, maybe 16 a rockets but 6 on or i am us. so it's every single question of sending messages,

sending promises to try to keep, keep fighting in russia, even if everybody knows, know that russia ones use the soap aeration ones is, were which started 8 years ago. interesting, george, you know, you hear this phrase. nothing about ukraine without ukraine, but i mean, that's a very curious situation here. and i said in my introduction, is that, you know, in many different forms. ukraine has been a client state of the, of the west of the european union and of the united states. so give me everything you want, let them know, you know, whatever you want to give it to him. well then, you know, it goes from a client state to kind of a very fuzzy wag the dog because the, the, by the administration bo joe. and they're all in on this here. i mean, this is a very dangerous situation because you're giving worth already to the,

the most junior of junior partners in this equation. go ahead, but i don't think they are giving you credit for it. i think they're making a pretense of giving in florida, but basically they just want to keep the war going because you know, i'm just simply gives you something for not. so any time the united states, a said, well, you know, this is going with strings attached and we want to just sit down and go, she seriously. well, basically want to give you anything that you know, you're done with americans and on this many times in the past, i mean, they did this to the south vietnamese. i did this to afghanistan. oh, that one point that we got you are, i haven't done that, does it? what's going on? and in fact, it's been the this way because it seemed like some, some kind of an agreement was in the works. and some bo bone, the united states and united, gave them just moved in. and i, you know,

bring this thing to an end. and since then, since there is a stumble debacle, let me know, negotiations and you know, binding again said recently that well and so, you know, the reason why we're giving you grain is to strengthen your grains, negotiating position while negotiating. but if you want to go here a 2nd place, i think you can back in the moment, the grady negotiating position was strengthened, a more i'm so that we get stranded some more. so it's essentially just messy. you're saying, you know, i've been calling for a cease fire and you know, and we know what that means, so they can regroup, and they can send in more arms and all that. it has nothing to do with them to go shaded. and here and sunday, i'm more kind of a philosophical level here. must not be allowed to win. well, i mean that's rhetorical, you know, it's, i guess, it sounds like maybe for some people it's a listing. but that has nothing to do with geo politics. if they,

there rationality their, their, their ability to reason his escape the minutes being overcome by an ideological position that has nothing to do with reality, we would all agree. our viewers agree, the war is going very badly for ukraine. and so this is where the conflicts come, he must not be allowed to win, but there's no way that ukraine can win unless they want to start world war 3 and then everybody loses, go ahead. you know, i imagine i don't want to come for, of course the west was hitler, but i imagine this in the beginning of april, 2945. so we can over the west and the allies to win the war. so it's not a question what you want to a lot, so what you can do, and if you observe what happened on the shield during the last week, there is a such a many, a disparate cnn assault. i mean a, you know,

the zalinski and the, and the west need just a small victory just taking a small village just to say that, ok, we are counter attacking. we are going to win. but the even which older, although the force is a sense that they couldn't achieve such a victory, it's a complete collapse everywhere on the front line. but of course, as you say, there are still on the irrational approach of this conflict. and the will continue sending many for us is losing the last a huge, it's very it's, it's very dangerous for the, for the recurrent frontline, but this berkeley want to win just just one village just so i can say on the french channels on the us channels on the older with some channels that we can try taking well, going to win just for just for what i can explain because again, we are on a new cheryl approach of these conflicts. that is not right

because they're saying that we're gene that has been posed on russia as boomerang backfired, and it's the experiencing all of the, the, the pain of the sanction. so we have to have something to just by what they have done it. yes. that, that, that's right, and unfortunately, um, you know, the west is basically ruled by the united states earlier because the house from boom, we would expect something sensible. and i think that they probably do have some sensible cause. i'm sure micro shows draggy. this is insane. we just don't like this, this is just destroying our economy. they don't really have any in anything because they've allowed themselves to be essentially socking to lose bottex of nato. and i brought in these new nato members who are absolutely demented and in the bowl on

the baltic space, you know, the very, you know, the, the, you know, the check republican about garrett. they are actually, you know, right, things as opposed to the, you know, the more, the more sensible powers and therefore, is other, you know, my problem. they say things labovic his sense of what he said the other day. but he just simply is overwhelmed by other people who are really running the show. and obviously it makes them wait because their words have no impact whatsoever. so you talked to potent, you don't have to put the result is. and i gentlemen, that i can come in here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that you break will continue our discussion and stay with our ah ah, ah

ah ah ah ah ah, welcome back to cross not we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle. this is the home edition to remind you were discussing some real news.

ah, or is collect exactly a hearing? yes. so you know, there's all this talk about negotiation today. they go, she a, you know what? well, what should they accept the ukrainians? i mean, what's the best venue, the timing of the rest correlation of forces as the soviets used to say. and i find that to be just all of it to be nonsensical because the, the fact that the west would not interact in good faith with russia. but prior to this conflict, and i'm looking at the again, december 17th, all the way to february 24th, they weren't good. faith actors did not take rushes concerns seriously. and the russians warned military technical response. we got it. ok, so i mean, why would russia even care what ukraine has to say? what it's, it's backers in the west have to say, you know,

particularly like poland or the baltic republics of rabid me. it's the way i look at it is that, and we've talked about this so many times the slow grind, you know, well that's how russians fight wars. ok. they do it methodically. and so my, my thoughts are the russians will say when the war is over, when they are ready, it will be their time table and they will dictate the results. there will not be maybe a minute chat a little bit here. and there might be some discussion, but basically say no, this is the outcome of the war and you must live with it because there's nothing you can do about it unless you want to go to the new killer. you want, you want the, you want to test the master shared destruction thesis, but basically it's because the russian saves the west as not having any good faith actors. they're going to have to make unilateral decisions and they have, they are in the position to do that. if you remember on the 21st of february, 2014,

the french, the polish, and the german, us a minister to sign an agreement to go out to crisis. this agreement last less than 24 hours in 2015 to sign the means agreement. there was a vote on the un and so heiress, every people who voted, including the u. s. a. are supposed to guarantees this agreement, they didn't do anything. so of course, russia doesn't trust the west and a rush has rights. and, you know, the problem is russia has already changed one time, is a war ems is a war targets. it was on the $22.00 of f will, before the target was a dumbass and cremate to be recognized by jeff as independent or the part of russia . and on the 22, on the 22nd of april, that they said i to change the target and also targets to control all the south

coast of ukraine. so wednesday we'll have liquidated the you current army in don't bus. i mean, the men of the crime isn't dumbass actually. they are will be able to chant against the targets. why not? uh huh. why not a check? i see the can they come to i to his origin that can take what they wants. so father for kiff and father west, it's her an emergency to, to try to honestly negotiate with russia and to stop fighting. not to cease fire to stuff fighting to the lens. yes. to get the order to look or an army. ok. we are. we lost a war and it's time to, to negotiate on a good face. and without that, a rush i will window that the war ended and on bus. and maybe after that it will change again the ams and the next m's could be worse and worse for ukraine. of

course, you know, church as a lint, k is not often said that he wants to negotiate a one to one with. but i will, i will. well, imagine that from the russian side, the only phone call they want to get from zalinski is an unconditional surrender your thoughts? yeah, i think that's right. i think a very good point because the long list of those on the higher the price that russia will exact from ukraine and the wes, i mean, it just makes sense. i mean, you now sacrifice a great deal. you want to reward for less sacrifice, so raw, i get off the world war 2 and i was basically a heavy eating a terrible devastation now, you know, because the cache, you know, a lot of things for our security. and i think that this is a historic opportunity for russia to address various security vulnerabilities that

a lot of to leave the break up of the soviet units. ok, you know, the, i think the back seat goes to go to control of the city of c goes like under control. i think they're going to get the land bridge to transmit syria. so, you know, maybe even more. i mean, you know, that's, that's it. i mean, is this, you know, the, let this historic opportunity just to pass them by you such a good point to things here. let's not forget russian public opinion will not allow anything less than an absolute victory. public opinion is important here and just let you kind of expand upon this point. this is all about russia security. this is not about rebuilding the soviet union. it's not just oracle a fight with you. read all the nonsense you hear george is absolutely right. we stuff this all started by russian demanding it's security guarantees in europe and, and because it doesn't have honest interlocutors in the west, it will create those conditions all by itself. does that mean?

yes, of course. and no, we can add that putin belongs to the, so i'm sorry, in, in community in the eighty's were thought that the soviet union was too big, and it was too expensive for the veteran public of russia. so it's look the question of rebuilding a huge empire, which is a impossible to rule and possible to, to, to, to make wealthy because because to big. so for russia, the only thing to do is get a safety get security and protect russian people. because in the ukraine, you have russian people and you are russian speaking people. so this people are closer to russia than to the west than even to move on to a today. so of course, there is no question to with the question of protecting people to protect the russian people. and especially in the bus. when you see a precisely,

that's all this a phonetic battalions. they hate people living in them, but they use it as a you use them as a human shield because the heads and it's not a problem to exterminate them. so yes, i agree. it's not a question for building a selection of security and of protecting people in the bus and in the russian speaking part of your grand dis, the back up of the said he makes what he said. it makes perfect sense because i would explain why russia didn't change, why there hasn't been a regime change. all the other things when the u. s. dash around the world all the time. ok. but it has been any of those things. i mean, how would you found it really curious that like nancy pelosi and chuck schumer can show up and walk around the center of given the middle of the war, they don't seem to be feel any a security threat. and that he's absolutely right. it's about security interest in protecting people, and it's nothing to do with who is running, you know,

showing up on the emmys or the grammys, you know, sitting in the presidential palace in campus in different. it's immaterial. yes. i think that's right. it is about the russian people specifically and again, if one thinks of them, newton's too important spacious on february, the 21st of february, the 20. well, the february, the 21st stage was all about how the bolsheviks really just screwed over the russian people. right from the 917 all the way up to 991. they just go and, and that's obviously something you feel very strongly about. and the base of the west is actually continuing the work of the of so they are going to protect the russian people. you and i think at some point, i mean, it was obvious that the beginning, the issue of the both states is going to come up because they're really under to put up for will away lisa,

very substantial russian population of be treated. 1 in particularly in last, the sonia again brings up, you know, the security issue, which is the basically, i access the gillian brother on the list. a friend in the past. couple rushes, access, the billing, and so there are other issues that, you know, he's going to start raising about, you know, it's need to secure the russian people. well, i think george, you're absolutely right because maybe we don't have a whole lot of time left on this program. but can you go additional sanctions that happen? why here? i mean exactly the, the sanction po box is empty now. ok, i mean, other sanctioning relatives have relatives of relatives. ok. i mean it's, you know, it's really, it's a fanatical and now there's nothing more they can again,

unless we want to go to a general mobilization than a general global war, which would be a craven choice on the side, on the part of the west. and to add to it here, what are they going to do exactly when it all does come crashing down on that? ok, because it's going to happen. it's going to happen sometime this summer. ok. what are they going to do then? the next step, if you look at the 2nd war, is a global society. i don't, i don't see. and it was a and use a idea. but to be most say it was a, i don't know if it's to be more sales, but the deputy foreign minister of the european union with a polish one said does are preparing a sentence, a packet of sanctions. but i would like to know what the, what is talking about, because just a, the guess i actually have to suggest, but this is a change in supposed to be yours. i mean,

what's the point of sanctions if you're not influencing behavior? i mean, how long that if you have, you know it back to so on anything russia is doing a dia with play for restrictions on the use of energy this winter and all the food rationing on the table. so there's a point to other than what we're going to do something. so let's say you had another round of sanctions. i suppose a country friends could borrow some money from ukraine because they're swimming in it right now here. exactly. i'm going to let you finish off the program here. where does this all end? because a lot of people have invested a lot in this and gotten 0 return. 15 seconds, go ahead. there were no return and you know, the problem was a land lease. it's a, i don't know all the ukraine we get,

we give back the money. we give the money back. i don't know, they can do that because russia is taking all what interesting part of your credit? no. you specifically as me, on the pro, what part of ukraine is going to pay this back? who's added on? that's the point, is going to be what's going to be the successor states that we're composite that the gothic bought. no, it will be determined in moscow, not in washington price all the time. we have want to thank my guest, me here in moscow and in budapest where i think our viewers for watching this year or the see next time remember ah ah ah, during the 2nd well, when nazi occupied, poland valencia was a farming region. today is part of ukraine between 19431945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army led by stepan bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in

virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. the valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. my al ukrainian politician, still reluctant to talk about these events, how to modern day ukraine and poland view. this tragedy of the past, and why does the memory of aline, us to divide, people move when i was sure seemed wrong when i just don't hold the world yet to see how this day becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

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