piece process, like the shampoo to san china, we want a stable of con hassan, so we are not being affected. so i think in that way i would say to you that box on us relation by mouth at the same as they were before. okay. yeah we, we just have to end it there because of time only, but thank you so much for your time on your thoughts today. i most enjoyed it. mohammad off our job, it director general of the pakistan house international. thank. thank you. a lot teachers ride up to the break and deeper don't go too far. as more programs get their starting moment time unit o'neil saying good bye for now. ah, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point, obviously is to place trust or rather than fear

a various job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with ah, [000:00:00;00]

ah, slow in welcome to cross stock, were all things considered ideal about western leaders have a habit of reminding us nothing about ukraine without you frank. this is rather curious as ukraine has been, a western client states since the co, against the democratically elected government in 2014. but there may be a copy out here in it's called, wag the dog. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess towards some u. l. e. in budapest, he is a podcast the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we have at seve morrow. he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis strap all or a gentleman, cross type rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always

appreciated. let's go to budapest, george, i need your infinite wisdom here to explain something to me. because it's some of these things that are being said about ukraine coming from the west, just don't make any a coherent, logical meaning for me. so we have um, the biden ministrations again, flip flopping, sending advanced muscle systems to you, right. but they're given assurances. so when you know they're not going to be fired, russia. ok, i don't know how you enforce an in assurance like that when the ukraine under zalinski is doing everything as possible to why the war to get nato more involved. and then we have start and bird, you know, this character that runs nato. nieto is a defensive alliance, easily says every other breath, he said, you know, nato's southern burke says ukraine should, shouldn't stop. i shouldn't drop rather go of driving russia out of crimea. so you're getting this missile system from the,

from that it states in the head of nature was saying, go ahead. crimea, if you want, because you know, you could, may consider it occupied territory. russia says it's sovereign territory and we know repeatedly from the kremlin a sovereign territory of russia is under military assaults. they will use everything. everything is on the table as they say. so church, can you explain this to me? what are these assurances and is nato on the same page as the vitamin minister? well, i think um, shoulder like, does seem to be on the same page as the bike administration because the united states, i think i really doesn't care about ukraine. i think it just simply wants to extend this war for as long as possible. however much death and destruction is wrong. as a consequence. they don't care. i mean, they, when lloyd austin, the defense secretary said, we want to weaken russia. that's obviously not the policy. it's even the biden

tried to deny it in his head last week, but that's what the united states is doing. now. the europeans, you know, the so old euro defense secretary donald rumsfeld talked about the france, germany, the italy. they want this right? i mean they, they think this is just not, it's just destroying the continent of europe and the europe just will not recover from this. but they don't have any way. because ultimately, ukraine, as long as is being fed, you know, an infinite amount number of arms from the united states. it can just keep going. and i love that it's like giving an alcoholic, a free reign of the booze in the bar is getting like more gambler, you know, you have unlimited credit and that's what the buy ministration is doing. you know, whatever you want, we'll give it to you, you know, one day they say, you know, going to send you this multiple large rocker systems. then they change their mind if they will, will make sure that the missiles are short range. you know,

they're going to change their mind on that as well as so. so level 2 can just simply continue no, no matter how all of the peripheral consequences are until they run out of ukrainians. there was one point where it in exactly a still simberg statement to the claims was quite interesting to me because the nato in its leadership are just overwhelmed. they finally found a reason to exist and they wanted to go on on. this is a bureaucracy that has been searching for emission, and now they found upon it and they actually force the issue by ignoring russia. russia on diplomatic notes of december 17th, remember one to washington, 12, brussels. they ignored it. they wanted this to happen and they've gotten what they wanted. but, you know, the, at the end of the day when george was saying here, i mean, this is just, mission creep is not they want to keep going as long as possible without really,

really any kind of coherent thought about goal of this war. go ahead example, if you remember before the ukraine crisis, which started in 2014, the propose of nato was a quite a strength, for instance, in 2013. they said that the men aims to protect again, pirates in the african coast and against the trafficking of human beings. so it's good, but though you don't need a having a military allowance like not to fight against that. so of course, the, your current crisis was a very, very great opportunity for nato to justify just to be, to be in place. and the problem know is that if the lows in ukraine and they're losing and you can actually today. so is a loser. what's the purpose of natural? because, or if you're quite cynical, for instance,

what will happen is russia decided to invade, for instance, the baltic countries to protect the russian speaking population will not all wheel and get more than they did with ukraine. i don't think so. i mean, rush i want to, it's ok, but just just to represent that they can do, they can't do model that they are doing no and i was just isn't letting me put in a set of regarding the i am us a weapon system that actually ukraine has already such a system and the name is it's a 990 kilometers a range and it's exactly the same. and i'm just but you have, i don't know, maybe 16 a rockets but the 6 on the i am us. so it's, everything is question of sending messages, sending premises to try to keep, keep fighting in russia, even if everybody knows, know that the russia ones use the soap aeration one, these were, which started 8 years ago. interesting, george, you know,

you hear this phrase. nothing about ukraine without ukraine, but i mean, that's a very curious situation here. and i said in my introduction, is that, you know, in many different forms. ukraine has been a client state of the, of the west of the european union and of the united states. so give me everything you want, let them know, you know, whatever you want to give it to him. well then, you know, it goes from a client state to kind of a very fuzzy wag the dog because the, the, by the administration bo joe. and they're all in on this here. i mean, this is a very dangerous situation because you're giving worth already to the, the most junior of junior partners in this equation. go ahead. but i don't think they are giving you credit for it. i think the lady of pretence of giving it all florida, but basically they just want to keep the war going because you know,

i'm just simply gives you something for not so at any time the united states. and i said, well, you know, this is coming with strings attached and we want to just sit down and negotiate seriously. well, basically want to give you anything more less, you know, you're done with americans and on this many times in the past, i mean, they did this to the south vietnamese. i did this to afghanistan. oh that one point that we got you are, i haven't done that, does it? what's going on? and in fact, it's done the this way because it seemed like some, some kind of an agreement was in the works. and on both, both the united states and united gave them just moved and said that i, you know, bring this thing to an end. and since then, since the is a symbol debacle. let me know, negotiations and you know, again said recently that, well, and so, you know, the reason why we're getting on so you brain is to strengthen your grains,

negotiating position while negotiating a place i was laughing any, any back in the moment, the grady negotiate position was strengthened a little more so it's essentially just messy saying, you know, i've been calling for a cease fire and you know, and we know what that means so they can regroup, and they can send in more arms and all that. it has nothing to do with the negotiated and hear me. i'm more kind of a bill, a soft goal level here. newton must not be allowed to win. well, i mean, that's rhetorical. you know, it's, i guess it sounds like maybe for some people it's a listing. but that has nothing to do with geo politics if they rationality their, their, their ability to reason his escape the minutes being overcome by an ideological position that has nothing to do with reality. we would all agree. our viewers agree,

the war is going very badly for ukraine. and so this is where the conflict come. he must not be allowed to win. but there's no way that ukraine can win unless they want to start world war 3 and then everybody loses, go ahead. you know, i imagine i don't want to come for, of course the west was hitler, but i imagine this in the beginning of april, 2945, or we can over the west and the allies to win the war. so it's not a question what you want to a lot, so what you can do, and if you observe what happened on the shield during the last week, there is a such a many, a disparate cnn assault. i mean a, you know, the zalinski and the, and the west need just a small victory just taking a small village just to say that, ok, we are counter attacking. we are going to win. but the even which older,

although the force is a sense that they couldn't achieve such a victory, it's a complete collapse everywhere on the front line. but of course, as you say, there are still on the irrational approach of this conflict. and the will continue sending many for us is losing the last a huge, it's very, it's a, it's very dangerous for the, for the recurrent frontline. but that this very want to win just just one village, just so i can say on the french channels on the us channels on the older were some channels that we can try taking. well, going to win just for just for what i can explain because again, we are on a, an unusual approach of these conflicts. that is not right because this, the sanction where jean that has been posed on russia is boomerang backfired. and it's the last that it is experiencing all of the, the,

the pain of the sanction. so they have to have something to just by what they have done it. yes. that, that, that's right. and unfortunately on, you know, the west is basically ruled by the united states earlier because the house from boom, we would expect something sensible. and i think that they probably do have some sensible cause. i'm sure micro shows draggy. this is insane. we just don't like this, this is just destroying our economy. they don't really have any in anything because they've allowed themselves to be essentially starting to lose more text of nato. and i brought in these new nato members who are absolutely demented and in the bowl on the baltic space, you know, the, you know, the czech republic about where they are actually, you know, running things as opposed to the, you know, the more, the more sensible powers and therefore, is something, you know, my problem, they give you

a sense of what he said it the other day. but he just simply is overwhelmed by other people who are really running the show. and obviously it makes them wait because their words have no impact whatsoever. so you talk to pony, you don't talk to the results of the say, i gentlemen that your company here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that your break will continue our discussion. stay with our, ah ah, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law, your identification, we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to create trust rather than

a, with artificial intelligence, real summoning with obama protective own existence with a well, the max across that were all things are considered. i peter labelle, this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah, i select exactly a hearing this sunday. you know, there's all this talk about negotiation today. they go, she a, you know what? well, what should they accept the ukrainians? i mean, what's the best venue, the timing, raise,

correlation of forces as the soviets used to say. and i find that to be just all of it to be nonsensical because the, the fact that the west would not interact in good faith with russia. but prior to this conflict, and i'm looking at the again, december 17th, all the way to february 24th, they weren't good. faith actors did not take rushes concerns seriously. and the russians warned military technical response. we got it. ok, so i mean, why would russia even care what ukraine has to say? what it's, it's backers in the west have to say, you know, but you really like poland evolving republics of rabid me. it's the way i look at it is that, and we've talked about this so many times the slow grind, you know, well that's how russians fight wars. ok. they do it methodically. and so my, my thoughts are the russians will say when the war is over, when they are ready, it will be their time table and they will dictate the results. there will not be

maybe a minute chat a little bit here. and there might be some discussion, but basically as i thought, this is the outcome of the war. and you must live with it because there's nothing you can do about it unless you want to go to the new killer. you want, you want the, you want to test the master shared destruction thesis, but basically it's because the russian saves the west as not having any good faith actors. they're going to have to make unilateral decisions and they have, they are in the position to do that. if you remember on the 21st of february, 2014, the french, the polish, and the german, us a minister to sign an agreement to go to crisis. this agreement last less than 24 hours in 2015 to sign the agreement. there was a vote on the un, and so aris, every people who voted in,

including the u. s. a, are supposed to guarantees this agreement, they didn't do anything. so of course, russia doesn't trust the west and a russia's rights. and, you know, the problem is russia as already changed one time, is a war ems is a war targets. it was on the $22.00 of f will, before the target was a dumbass and cremate to be recognized by jeff as independent or as a part of russia. and on the 22, on the 22nd of april, that they said i to change the target, and those are the targets to control all the south coast of ukraine. so wednesday we'll have liquidated the u current army in don bus. i mean, the men of their crime isn't on bus. actually. they are, will be able to change against the targets. why not both over? why not check and see the can they come to actually solution?

they can take what they wants. so father forgive and for the west it's an emergency to, to try to honestly negotiate with russia and to stop fighting. not as his fire, to stop fighting to the lens. he has to get the order to look or an army. ok. we are, we lost a war and it's time to, to negotiate on a good face. and without that, a rush i will when the war ended and on bus. and maybe after that it will change again. the ams and the next aims could be worse and worse for ukraine. of course, you know, church as a lint, k is not often said that he wants to negotiate one to one with. but i will, i will. well imagine that from the russian side, the only phone call they want to get from zalinski is an unconditional surrender your thoughts. yeah, i think that's right. i think a very good point because the long list of those on the

higher the price that russia will exact from your brain and the way, i mean it just. ready makes sense, i mean, you now sacrifice a great deal. you want to reward for less sacrifice, so raw, i get off the world war to a heavy beating a terrible devastation. now, you know, because the cache, you know, lots of things for our security. and i think that this is a historic opportunity for russia to address various security vulnerabilities that a lot of the breakup of the soviet units. ok, you know, the, i think the back seat goes to go to control of the city of seacoast. they're going to control, i think they're going to get the land bridge to trans this syria. so, you know, maybe even more, i mean, you know, that's, that's it. i mean, is this, you know, the, let this historic opportunity just to pass them by. you such

a good point to things here. let's not forget russian public opinion will not allow anything less than an absolute victory. public opinion is important here and different, but you can expand upon this point. this is all about russia security. this is not about rebuilding the soviet union. it's not just oracle a fight with you. read all the nonsense you hear. george is absolutely right. we stuff this all started by russia demanding it security guarantees in europe. and because it doesn't have honest interlocutors in the west, it will create those conditions all by itself that yes, of course and know that we can add that put in belongs to the so i'm sorry, in, in community in the eighty's were so that the kitchen was too big, and it was too expensive for the trip public of russia. so it's look the question of rebuilding a huge empire, which is a impossible to rule and possible to,

to, to, to make wealthy because because to big. so for russia, the only thing to do is get a safety get security and protect russian people. because in the ukraine, you have russian people and your russian speaking people. so this people are closer to russia than to the west than even to move on to a day. so of course, there is no question to with the question of protecting people to protect the russian people and especially in the bus. and when you see precisely, that's all this a phonetic battalions. they hate people living in them, but they use it as a you use them as a human shield because the heads and it's not a problem to exterminate them. so yes, i agree. it's not the question of rebuilding a suggestion of security and of protecting people in the bus and in the russian

speaking part of your brain is backed up with exactly a sense that he makes what he said. it makes perfect sense because i want to explain why russia didn't change. why there hasn't been a regime chain. all the other things when the u. s. dash around the world all the time. ok. but russia, any of those things? i mean, haven't you found it really curious that like nancy pelosi and chuck schumer can show up and walk around the center of kevin, the middle of the war, they don't seem to be, feel any a security threat. and that he's absolutely right. it's about security interest in protecting people, and it's nothing to do with boys running, you know, showing up on the emmys or the grammys, you know, sitting in the presidential palace in campus in different. it's immaterial. yes. i think that's right. it is about the russian people specifically and again, if one of them voted to inform speeches on february the 21st of february, the 20. well, the february,

the 21st stage was all about how the bolsheviks really just screwed over the russian people. right from the 917 all the way up to 991 the just for the low. and, and that's obviously something you feel very strongly about. and he thinks of the west is actually continuing the work of the of it. so they are going to protect the russian b. right. and i think at some point, i mean, it was obvious that at the beginning, the issue of the both states is going to come up because a, a very under to put up for will away lisa, very substantial russian population of be treated. 1 in particularly in last, the sonia again brings up, you know, the security issue, which is the basically, i access the gillian brother on the list when you have a friend in the past. couple rushes access, the billing address, are there other issues?

no, he's going to start raising about, you know, it's need to secure the russian people. i think george are absolutely right because maybe we don't have a whole lot of time left on this program. but can you go additional sanctions that happen? why here? i mean, exactly the sanction po box is empty now. ok, i mean, other sanctioning relatives have relatives of relatives. ok. it's really, it's a fanatical and now there's nothing more they can again, unless we want to go to a general mobilization, a general war, which would be a craven choice on the side, on the part of the west, and to add to it here. what do you do exactly when it all does come crashing down on that? ok, because it's going to happen. it's going to happen sometime this summer. ok. what are they going to do then? the next step, if you look at the 2nd war, is

a global society. i don't, i don't see. and it was a and use a idea. but to be most say it was a, i don't know if it's to be most a is, but the deputy foreign minister of the european union with a police one said does are preparing the sentence the packet of sanctions. but i would like to know what the, what is talking about, because just a, the guess i actually have to suggest, but this is a change in supposed to be yours. i mean, what's the point of sanctions if you're not influencing behavior a lot that if you have so you know, in back that so on anything russia is doing a dia with play for restrictions on the use of energy this winter and all the food

rationing on the table, so there's a point to other than what we're going to do something. so let's say he has another round of sanctions. i suppose a country friends could borrow some money from ukraine because they're swimming in it right now here. exactly. i'm going to let you finish off the program here. where does this all end? because a lot of people have invested a lot in this and gotten 0 return. 15 seconds, go ahead. there were no return and you know, the problem was a land lease. it's a, i don't know all the ukraine we get, we get back the money. we give the money back. i don't know, they can do that because ritual is taking all what interesting part of your credit? no, it specifically as me on the product, what part of ukraine is going to pay this back, who's added? and that's the point, is gonna be what's going to be the successor states that will help us at the bottom . it will be determined in moscow, not in washington,

or it's all the time we have want to take my guess. i'm here in moscow and in budapest where i think our viewers for watching us, your marketing see next time remember ah ah, ah, when i would show seemed wrong when i just don't know. i mean you have to shape out. this thing becomes to add to kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. with ah, 3 civilians are killed in the done yet. people's republic of the area continues to come under intense artillery fire that dozens of missiles were reportedly launched by ukrainian forces. also ahead with more long reaching the weapon systems you'll be shipping to ukraine. defer that we will push the line which follows the northeast from threatening our country. rush is foreign minister, a warrant. the west again, states continuous flow of weapons to ukraine. the conflict grinds on a number of western media and politicians alike move away from the previous key. it