ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross hawk where all things are considered. i am peter lavelle . the 3 and and 50th anniversary of peter, the great birth is june 9. he ruled from 168221725 founded the city of saint petersburg as russia's window to europe has his dream of russia being part of europe come to an end. at this point, the scenes very likely. ah, i cross sucking russia and europe. i'm joined by my guest on laughlin in paris. he's

a university lecture in history and political philosophy in saint petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he's an independent political analyst, an author, a memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 19 ninety's and province we cross through vladimir goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. i gentleman crossing roles and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i want to ask you all 3. the same question. i'll start off with john. here is the window to you're a bit st. pete, that peter, the great envisioned, is it coming to a close? is it closed? yes, it's been slammed by europe or in russia throughout the last. her 1020 years has repeatedly st. how much it wants to corporate with the west, with europe in particular of course, but even with the americans. and are, you know, the door has been slammed in its face or the window has been slammed in its face or

in a very, very fundamental way. as angular merkel used to remind people, even at the height of the cold war when there was a very acute ideological confrontation between communism and capitalism. economic relations continued between the soviet union and the west picture in the form of energy supplies. and as we all know, those have now been largely cut off. not yet the energy supplies, but are all other forms of economic corporation. and as we know, some countries are pushing for even the energy to go. and the reason why i say it's slammed and i think definitively, i mean nothing is ever definitive in history, but certainly for the medium and even long term is that this crisis occurs at the end of a, a 30 year period after the cold war, where relations have gone from cool to very cold, indeed, frozen from bad to worse. that 30 year period followed the cold war itself,

which had lasted for 4550 years and the cold war are followed. of course, the 2 world wars are, although russia and then the soviet union fought on the allied side in both those conflicts. they both were essentially what was fought between europe or at least central europe. in the case of the 1st world war and russia. it's often forgotten this. the point is often overlooked picky from a western perspective, because if you're british or french, you know, about the trenches in the, on the western front. but the, the war in russia, for example, in 1914, the, the 1st declaration of war was, i, austria against serbia. and the 2nd declaration of war on the 1st of august, 1914, was by germany against russia. so the focus of those 2 world wars and of course, even more so in the 2nd world war was between europe and russia. and as i say, while the soviet union then from 41 to 45, was of course on the allied side that was a small parenthesis. and so in other words, if you look at it in the round,

we've had no more than a 100 years of major and constant jupiter of not constant, but very, very largely constant geopolitical confrontation between europe generally and russia. and that is now come to a head with this, with this latest war in a way that few people for saw and in a way which i do indeed think is absolutely a fundamental and would be very, very difficult to rope actual. i'd say it very interesting and so it's got to flatter me, i would just given an extra caviar to what john was saying is that the, the current iteration of the window being slam shut is at the american's behest. i think it's important to point out making sure, okay, a vladimir and that same question to you. i mean, if i'm being prompt from the former soviet union now living in the west, you and i are very interesting couple because i'm an american living here. you are a former soviet citizen living there. ah, is this an end game here? because it seems to me that the west is determined to my deny russia any access to

europe. it's definitive and it could be last. it could last generations. go ahead, vladimir. i would agree with your a starting point that this is basically a united states game as it russia is in europe. and it's definitely like violent action as a slim in the door and the russians face in europe. it's, i don't think it will last, if you look into integration and, and connections or wait to strong bud. united states is driving it. be in a weight from you or of being away from, from russia. it's sort of in a once to maintain the status quo, which existed during the cold war and so on. when the united states was the leader united states, the globally mand away in charge, is man united states could germany, and they want to maintain it. but this is kind of impossible boys to have kind of global things into her one country dominated. so they try into

a kind of persist and preserve it while it's actually crumbling. but then it is one more example that you either use in ukraine as a wedge to drive between europe and russia between germany and russia. and you know, they're so far they are, i would say they succeed in somewhat by the, it's in look, you know, it's very good to go back to be the, the grade and see that certain things i inevitable. jo graphy is a destiny and be the understood it and you know, europeans understand it, but i'm being a lot of europeans are still under this form of united states that we can do it as well. no, no, no, no, no, army or the if, if the geography is destiny than the europeans should understand it, but they don't. and that is the problem here. it's got to gilbert same question. so we have everyone answering the same question. go ahead gilbert. i would say the 1st

if you seem to be on the street here, you're actually who alone have the right people. very nice people. they don't do this into those who are calling you here. expression really that every 100 years in your state in their heads. and so we go back little further then then go back to it was there was a bible legacy production here in saint petersburg. either it was the production or the state number is very much thinking of people in this city, the city which is great and was created to be precisely that you're hearing people do,

do recall the words. so i know that all of your was coming to russia is coming to moscow for the sake of spoils force and destruction of this country. so the, we get experience here is very widespread. and also i don't think there is a crescent troubles will last forever. and certainly not last generations, i personally think of a 5 year or send a returns a year. and we're much to year to see if we changing these insane policies as a consequence of the road back from your leadership. it's very been experience who you are starting as

a source going down a whole line because she's governance creed actually ducks in line to is to implement all the crew and suited restrictions. these have not yet yielded low back. when that comes, it will be, let me go back to john here. i mean, the conflict in ukraine will come to an end. i would predict sickly. at the end of this summer. another defeat for ukraine. ukraine doesn't want to negotiate. so the russians will dictate their terms, but john, nato will still exist and it will want its revenge. okay. i mean, people are so focused on this here, which is important obviously. but that's why we're doing this program because i think the implications of this conflict. if nato is a di, fanged and the in a gemini, american hegemony doesn't come today, we're going to continue this. it will be the 1st ukranian war, john,

go ahead. there's absolutely no doubt about that. and of course, as we all know, this current war is itself a response to what happened in 2014, on both sides, the, the, my dad, coo and, and the annexation of crimea, and so on. or nato was rearming ukraine, as we all know from 2014 onwards, there was no doubt preparing an attack on the don barza this year and so on and so forth. so yes, all these things continue and were russia to achieve its aims. as i think she probably will this summer as you say, then of course nato will prepare. it's revenge. that's how international relations work. and i, and i think that's all the more certain to happen. because a while i agree with you completely about the americans being in the driving seat about this or the europeans are not only served while they are servo. but they are ideologically committed to this. when people like ursula from the lion and so on,

who, by the way, when she was appointed president of the european commission in 2019 promised a geopolitical commission, a geopolitical commission. when she was defense minister of germany. before that she promised to make the german army the biggest army in europe. these ideas, and by the way, a promise which i'll have shawls has repeated. germany is rearming and rearming in the sense of wanting to affirm itself ideologically as what europe is today, which is, as i've said many times before, including on this show post national ice christian post historical and so on. and russia is the ideological enemy. russia is my, it's very existence of everite to the european ideology because russia, of course is the opposite of all those things. and if one country can be seen to be doing the opposite of a being post historical and post national and so on, then that is a threat to the ideology. because ideology cannot bear

a counter ideology to exist a. so i did, i underestimate the role of the europeans, they are in this up to the next. and they want it for the same reasons because they are on the same ideological line as the for example, if i can administration in washington, all right, on that point gentlemen, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on russia in europe. same with ah, today i'm authorizing the additional strong sanction foreign companies, quitting russia, numbers on to one. thank you. this client atm console, blantan banks disconnected from the international payment system. functional will puppy mal donna and euro exchange rates followed minneapolis sellable up article more so. so carbon would know what the committee met. the vulcans to build on this

plan is the current. can you say, i don't know? sure. see, a metallica promise volume and russian business overcome this song. see, near i bought in nazi to huddle. she tremendously just me don't press voice bullshit. nash, a productive notches, steel nash, a miracle. what i see that put themselves when you come when you with i've already got annual of, i mean why she did not, but i, she's open a cost to get the group when you, when you're sitting in with dr. new flison who is a school or some delusion gets a little bit, you know, the mutual improves in a thing spoke with slash,

with both of the models you need to do. you both got nothing new to the deal with a, a guy. nobody. a lot of them bought a dealer or earlier this year. they need to release any that because one year warranty with us, a personal number here in myrtle with

with a welcome back across stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt, manager. we're discussing russia and europe. ah, well, the worst thing about this program is when you have 3 great gas, you have so little time. so i'm going to keep out a bit. vladimir, pick up the discussion where we left off. go ahead. well, i think what we see here is what jenna like, well known. so the concept of contradictions. there are a lot of contradictions. here is what we have is definitely some kind of european elite, which decided long time ago to align themselves with united states. and then follow them ideologically. they fought for follow them, you know,

believe caitlin milligan and so on. but europe is definitely not a, a asthma. the lead on the liter guess is they pretend to be their business and just there are people interest. there is like some kind of ideology. so this things will enter into conflict. and, you know, people with the allies, they need in excess of to rush to rush to the well, the russian sort of speech or, well, we'll talk a rationalist cultural well to, you know, they need to rush to be involved in. so the fundamental issues like in a climate, for example, for them on the very ideology of this kind of post, you know that john referred to this, but it was more than well is a really contradictory things by itself. because what united states them driving a eulogy is sort of the kind of equality they keep one marine same with marginalized groups in a while. at the same time, they try and fully marginalize bratia giant country with a giant, you know, with people later, they misleading them. they don't allow travelling both ways and this is so ill,

sooner or later, even this ideal of that would realize that the, you cannot do that. this is just, you know, you can it with one hand, promote equality and you know, bringing in all you know, marginalized left out groups while the 2nd analyze it, the greatest biggest country get at least in size. so this, sooner or later, it will start thinking in what it monday european elite in of course, definitely my european brown. i to saw john john local. i disagree. i disagree to, but i want to get gilbert in here. i'm just going to come to the chase. i mean, europe needs russia far more than russia needs europe. can people understand that gilbert? well the, i think they may have nurse in europe because they had in the lower but they were very strain. no name is really

rivers. they don't have their own equipment anymore. and then stage destroyed the industry domestically and had very little reserves and very little to say the american presence. and that is why they don't mind somebody i issue the remarks about procedure that there's some of the actually learning about germany. we are in germany. we arms that potentially can be an independent force. whereas now is germany to step out of mine. the 996, you know, so therefore we are many turn in your

relation and your your and russia. things in relation to the lack of the economic catastrophe. we're in a governess preparing by their 6 package of sanctions as to which results russia need your it would be painful for your to disappear as a consumer. well, what about the other way around gilbert? what about the other way around? i think would be far worse for europe. europe would suffer far more. let me go to john here. i mean, it's ok. we have 6 packages of sanctions here. well, there's one big sanction. russia can employ, turn off the taps in a, in a, in

a nano 2nd. turn it off. that's their sanction. john. yeah, exactly. and you know, one wonders in a sense why it hasn't been deployed so far. but i, i think that the, for what i meant about what was left on the line and german rearmament. i didn't. i certainly don't want to suggest that germany wants to be a hedge, a monic in europe on its own terms independently. if the americans know it is, of course, as a, as part of this transatlantic alliance. but what i meant was that she, by saying this, by making the point about the job, political commission and roaming germany earlier when she was defense minister, i meant that she clearly was building up in her mind this idea of a confrontation with russia. because that's the only country again switch, there would be any geopolitical commission and to go back to what latimer said in the states i, i don't think we can, i think we're beyond the point now where we can expect, for instance,

german industry or european industry to correct, the suicidal mistakes of european policy makers. i never thought i never believed that the not stream to gas pipeline would be what would be suspended as it has been, because i assumed that that was a natural life and germany. well, it has now been suspended. and don't forget that this is the suspension because we all know this in the context of decor, well, yes, decades now of green policy, they're talking more and more about reducing c o 2 emissions and using hydrocarbons . this is almost a windfall for the southern russia crisis because they can start to implement that green policies. and we've never underestimate the power of ideology. and in 1917, you could have said, soviet communism doesn't make any economic sense, but it took 70 years. it took many generations of, o, terrible damage inflicted on, on russia and on soviet society before these contradictions. which of course,

are there, you talk about contradictions, vladimir, yes, there, there. they can stay in place, these contradictions for nearly a century. while the economy of the country is concerned under these contradictions, contradictions don't necessarily collapse very quickly. and you know, we see our crisis off the crisis in europe and not just the ukraine crisis, but also cove. it a monetary crisis of 20 o 8. these things are often, i think we're responding to with decisions, which in fact will lead to fall west crises down the line. but that doesn't stop these decisions from continuing to be taken. reality is not getting through at this point and that's what makes me so that's a mistake about the reality is coming through this or to lease a. so is the price of a leisure minute, or he is going to one year on 40. so that is

double the price once year and it means that every household will pay some very well water for delivery, or this is a zip, a t as e commerce or as yet it's just for people to ok. vladimir, i mean, given you know, the confiscation of russian assets and whatnot. and i mean, i don't, i'm not talking about yachts and stuff like that. i don't care about billionaires. i really don't. but our president has been sent to the west is not a reliable partner. they don't believe in the rule of law anymore. and so, i mean again, i don't see, i don't have any kind of historical attachment to this relationship here. i'm pragmatic. ok,

and i'm not ideological. and so mixing up this ideology and then refuting you the are your basic principles, like the rule of law. i mean, why do you want to parlay with anyone like that, vladimir, you know, what would have to consider is that the time of peter, the grade of was, europe was a kind of dominant force at least logically and so on. and he definitely wanted to turn toward europe, but there isn't like elephant in the room. you know, there is east, there is china, there is india. and eventually they'll be. so the alignment and that's what we're talking about. it's kind of a reality, this message what united states in europe is sending, that they can seize the essays and so on. it's a dangerous one message again saying that they can use one country as a for the broke to war, injures one china difference. it gets with united states one to accomplish through taiwan through hong kong and so on. so this is where i live in the different ball in the reality such that, ok, you know, you don't want to rush an oil fine,

it can go, it can flow eastward. and then you know, as, as gilbert says, you know, europeans will get a lesson. and i'm actually much more optimistic where he's. ready amber than john hammond, you know, leave to say, so the dismantled and also it, you know, i remember when i was the, in the, so just people saw that the soviet union will go on forever. but nevertheless, at that moment, and i don't want to go. ready in the soviet history, there were sort of progressive moments isn't died, but at least you know, in the seventy's 8 is. it was a reason, as i know in the world that the whole thing is just meddling and we did it. you've totally different country. so things are changing. so vladimir, did you like me? russia? you're giving me hub, let me go to general. so you, given what you know, the, the, that the thought that the soviet union would never come to the end communist will never come to. and so, john, we do, we do have hope that the, you and nato can come to an end. john, well, everything comes to an end, eventually ab 60, in the politics. but i, as i say,

i do not think that the end is in sight. or we've, we've seen the nato deciding to expand further in these last weeks, but there's still a lot of left life left in the system. a manual and macro has just been reelected in france. even though there's very little support for him. the system continues to, to, to prosper. and of course, i'm aware of the rising energy prices. and of course, i think the sanctions are suicidal. but i have thought that policy decisions going back more than 10 years was suicidal. i think wanted to piecing it to his seidel, but it's part of the program at devil. so last week they talked about how they would be a significant reductions in or in the standard of living all over the world because of the climate crisis under. and because of the response to it, that's part of the program. so if people have to pay more for their fuel oil that suits the green, a gender fine and the green,

the gender is what dominates europe and america at the moment. so that's why i'm afraid i of course, i wish reality would break in, but i don't see any splendid. john went rapidly running out of time. but all of these people, the davos law ghouls, you know, um they have all these great ideas, but they'll never suffer as a result of their own ideas. all right? as all the time we have tell them i want to thank my gets in paris, province and in saint petersburg. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here . are see, see you next time. remember grossbach rules? mm. hi. my name is frank, i'm a retired, and philadelphia got in the movement in $8830.00 of 14 or violence torches. people because we believe that word is raised. we're here 1st

and this is our country being part of that movement. i got a sense of power when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i felt a life after hey, is an organization that was founded by for skin odyssey, white supremacists in the us and canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out is 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social groups. and then the next part is d. radicalization work belief systems audiology are removed, that was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement heard my stories said nothing to challenge with a wrong one. i

just don't know if you have to fill out the theme because the applicant, an engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today, russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure which of the problem was the question, as we speak on, the billing is pretty much the more in the we're, we're, we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas new g i. g. with regard to joe,

by imposing the sanctions on russia. you know, has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang. with russia swims as a food terrorism. what seems to be the deliberate destruction of more than $50000.00 tons of grain by ukrainian troops. that comes, i made a worsening global food crisis. the u. n. admits there is no proof to western claims that moscow is plundering ukraine's grain and shipping it to its own buyers. this, however, does not stop washington from a pointedly warning african countries, again, buying a russian supplies, emitted the food deficit, and archie cru finds evidence that o s. c e member.