was a piece of dealing with as a whole of the city. it's a slow bullets. we'll give us one in one. ah ah hello and welcome to cross hock. we're all things considered. i am peter lavelle. the 3 and and 50th anniversary of peter, the greats. birth is june 9, he ruled from 168221725 founded the city of saint petersburg as russians window to europe has his dream of russia being part of europe come to an end. at this point, the scenes very likely, ah cross

sucking russia and europe, i'm joined by my guest on laughlin in paris. he's a university lecture in history and political philosophy in saint petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he's an independent political analyst, an author, a memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 19 ninety's and in province we cross through vladimir goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. i joan in cross sack roads and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i want to ask you all 3. the same question. i'll start off with john. here is the window to europe that same p a that peter, the great envisioned, is it coming to a close? is it closed? yes, it's been slammed by europe or in russia throughout the last 1020 years has repeatedly st. how much it wants to corporate with the west, with europe in particular of course, but even with the americans. and are, you know, the door has been slammed in its face or the window has been slammed in its face or

in a very, very fundamental way. as angular merkel used to remind people, even at the height of the cold war when there was a very acute ideological confrontation between communism and capitalism. economic relations continued between the soviet union and the west picture in the form of energy supplies. and as we all know, those have now been largely cut off. not yet the energy supplies, but are all other forms of economic corporation. and as we know, some countries are pushing for even the energy to go. and the reason why i say it's slammed and i think definitively, i mean nothing is ever definitive in history, but certainly for the medium and even long term is that this crisis occurs at the end of a, a 30 year period after the cold war, where relations have gone from cool to very cold, indeed, frozen from bad to worse. that 30 year period followed the cold war itself,

which had lasted for 4550 years. and the cold war followed. of course, the 2 world wars are, although russia and then the soviet union fought on the allied side in both those conflicts. they both were essentially what was fought between europe or at least central europe. in the case of the 1st world war and russia. it's often forgotten this. the point is often overlooked picky from a western perspective, because if your british or french, you know about the trenches in the, on the western front, but the, the war on russia, for example, in 1914, the, the 1st declaration of war was i, austria against serbia. and the 2nd declaration of war on the 1st of august, 1914, was by germany against russia. so the focus of those 2 world wars, and of course, even more so in the 2nd world war was between europe and russia. and as i say, while the soviet union then from 41 to 45,

was of course on the allied side that was a small parenthesis. and so in other words, if you look at it in the round, we've had no more than a 100 years of major and constant jubilant of not constant, but very, very largely constant geopolitical confrontation between europe generally and russia. and that is now come to ahead with this, with this latest war in a way that few people for saw and in a way which i do indeed think is absolutely a fundamental and would be very, very difficult to ro bactrim. it's very interesting. and so it's got to flatter me and i would just given an extra caviar to what john was saying, is that the, the current iteration of the window being slammed shut is at the american's behest . i think it's important to point out making sure, okay, a vladimir and that same question to you. i mean, if i'm being pumped from the former soviet union now living in the west, you and i are very interesting couple because i'm an american living here. you are a former soviet citizen living there. ah, is this an end game here?

because it seems to me that the west is determined to my deny russia any access to europe. it's definitive and it could be last. it could last generations. go ahead, vladimir. i would agree with your a starting point that this is basically a united states game as it russia is in europe. and it's definitely like violent action as a slim in the door and the russians face in europe. it's, i don't think it will last, if you look into integration and, and connections or wait to strong bud. united states is driving it being away from you or of being away from, from russia. it's sort of in a once to maintain the status quo, which existed during the cold war and so on. when the united states was the leader united states, the globally is mand away in charge, is man united states could germany, and they want to maintain it. but this is kind of impossible boys to have kind of

global things and to go one country dominated. so they try into a kind of a persist and preserve it while it's actually crumbling. but then it is one more exam that you either use in ukraine as a wage to drive between europe and russia between germany and russia. and in are there so far they are, i would say they succeed in somewhat by the it's, you know, look, you know, it's very good to go back to be the, the grade and see that certain things i inevitable. jo graphy is a destiny and be the understood it and you know, europeans understand it, but i'm being a lot of europeans are still under this form of united states that we can do it as well. no, no, no, no, no, army or the if, if the geography is destiny than the europeans should understand it, but they don't. and that is the problem here. it's got to gilbert same question. so we have everyone answering the same question. go ahead gilbert. well, i would say the 1st

if you listen to people, your exact address who alone have the right to other people in these people, they don't do listen to those who are calling you hear an expression really that every 100 years in your state in their heads is to i rush and so we go back little further, then then go back to they would they would they be bible, the legacy production here in saint petersburg? either it was the production or the states number is very much thinking of people in this city. the city which is a great found it was created to be precisely that you're hearing people do,

do recall the words. so i know that all of your was coming to russia is coming to moscow for the sake of spoils force and destruction of this country. so the, we get serious hostilities here is very widespread. and also i don't think there is a crescent troubles will last forever and certainly not last generation. i personally think of a 5 year plan, right. we're sending a returns a year and we're much to year to see if we thinking of these insane policies as a consequence of the road back from your leadership. it's very been experience who you are starting as

a source going down a whole ryan, because she's governance creed actually ducks in line to is to implement all the crew and restrictions these have not yet yielded low back. when that comes, it will be flexion. but you know, me go back to john here. i mean, the conflict in ukraine will come to an end, i would predict sickly at the end of this summer. another defeat for ukraine. ukraine doesn't want to negotiate. so the russians will dictate their terms. but john, nato will still exist and it will want its revenge. okay. i mean, people are so focused on this here, which is important obviously. but that's why we're doing this program because i think the implications of this conflict. if nato isn't d fanged and the in

a gemini, american hegemony doesn't come today, we're going to continue this. it will be the 1st ukranian war, john, go ahead. there's absolutely no doubt about that. and of course, as we all know, this current war is itself a response to what happened in 2014, on both sides, the, the, my dad, coo and then the annexation of crimea, and so on. or nato was rearming ukraine, as we all know from 2014 onwards, there was no doubt preparing an attack on the don barza this year and so on and so forth. so yes, all these things continue. and we're russia to achieve its aims. as i think she probably will this summer as you say, then of course nato will prepare. it's revenge. that's how international relations work. and i, and i think that's all the more certain to happen. because a while i agree with you completely about the americans being in the driving seat about this or the europeans are not only serve while they are servo. but they are

ideologically committed to this. when people like ursula from the lion and so on, who, by the way, when she was appointed president of the european commission in 2019 promised a geopolitical commission, a geopolitical commission. and when she was defense minister of germany. before that she promised to make the german army the biggest army in europe. these ideas, and by the way, a promise which i'll have shawls has repeated. germany is rearming and rearming in the sense of wanting to affirm itself ideologically as what europe is today, which is, as i've said many times before, including on this show post national, i was christian, post historical and so on. and russia is the ideological enemy. russia is my, it's very existence, the threat to the european ideology. because russia, of course, is the opposite of all those things. and if one country can be seen to be doing the opposite of being post historical and post national and so on, then that is

a threat to the ideology. because ideology cannot bear a counter ideology to exist a. so i did, i underestimate the role of the europeans, they are in this up to the next. and they want it for the same reasons because they are on the same ideological line as the for example, if i can administration in washington, all right, i'll that point gentlemen, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on russia in europe, same with ah, a wrong one. i just don't a whole new world yet to see how this thing becomes the answer to an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. ah, yeah, i had to do a party. i spoke earlier with her. what are your thousands of people still live in small towns and villages that have become the new frontline, georgia what they call this area? the greys a really early found, the real quick, pretty me with that was only mother you had to come with bill or chiller rear tail door. so no way more so that similarly was from done with she'll be able

to do it through and where she school for linux on the roku machine that tell us that she made a list that looked up. but that'll hit somebody with buddy alleged with before he boy will here scott, your party grow your favorite them with. didn't the global? why do we have finished a visit with you? can you go to jim in the garden then you should be had with ah, welcome back to cross stock, were all things are considered? i'm peter will about room and you were discussing russia and europe with

. well, the worst thing about this program is that when you have 3 great gas, you have so little time. so i'm going to keep out a bit. vladimir, pick up the discussion where we left off. go ahead. well, i think what we see here is what general, like, well known. so the concept of contradictions that are a lot of contradictions. here is what we have is definitely some kind of european elite, which decided a long time ago to align themselves with united states. and then follow them ideologically. they fought for follow them, you know, believe caitlin milligan and so on. but europe is definitely not a, a asthma. the lead on the liter guess as they pretend to be, their business interests. there are people interest. there is like some kind of ideology. so this things will enter into conflict. and, you know, people with the allies, they need in excess of to rush to rush to the well to ration sort of spiritual, well talk to araselis cultural well to, you know,

they need to rush to be involved in. so the fundamental issues like in a climate, for example, furthermore, the very ideology of this kind of post, you know, that john referred to this kind of was more than, well, is a really contradictory things by itself. because what united states them driving a eulogy is sort of the kind of equality they keep one marine and same with marginalized groups in a while. at the same time, they try and fully marginalize russia giant country with a j, a with people later. they misleading them. they don't allow travelling both ways. and this is so ill, sooner or later, even this ideal of that would realize that the, you cannot do that. this is just, you know, you can it with one hand, promote equality and you know, bringing in all you know, marginalized left are groups. while the 2nd i'm generalizing the greatest biggest country, yet at least in size. so this, sooner or later it will start sink in,

in what it monday european elite in. of course, definitely my european brown. i to saw john john laughlin disagree. i disagree too, but i want to get gilbert in here. i'm just going to come to the chase. i mean, europe needs russia far more than russia needs europe. can people understand that gilbert? well the, i think they may have nurse in your house because they have, you know what, they look good, but they were very strain. no, nato is really were they don't have their own equipment anymore. it ended up stage, destroyed the industry domestically and had very little the germans and very little to say the american presence. and that is

why they don't mind somebody i issue the much about procedure that there's some of the actually learning about germany. we are in germany, we arms their potential if you can be an independent force, whereas now it is possible for germany to step out of mine. they say she has no so therefore we are many turn in your religion and your be your and russia. things relations in the back of the economic tester. you're in government preparing by their

6 package of sanctions as to results russia, your course it would be painful for your to disappear as a consumer drivers. well, what about the other way around gilbert? what about the other way around? i think would be far worse for europe. europe would suffer far more. let me go to john here. i mean, it's easy. okay, we have 6 packages of sanctions here. well, there's one big sanction. russia can employ, turn off the taps in a, in a, in a nanosecond. turn it off. that's their sanction john. yeah, exactly. and you know, one wonders in a sense why it hasn't been deployed so far. but i, i think that the, for what i meant about what was left on the line and german rearmament. i didn't. i certainly don't want to suggest that germany wants to be a hedge,

a monic in europe on its own terms independently. if the americans know it is, of course, as a, as part of this transatlantic alliance. but what i meant was that she, by saying this, by making the point about the geopolitical commission and rearming germany earlier when she was defense minister, i meant that she clearly was building up in her mind this idea of a confrontation with russia. because that's the only country again switch, there would be any geopolitical commission and to go back to what latimer said in the states i, i don't think we can, i think we're beyond the point now where we can expect, for instance, german industry or european industry to correct, the suicidal mistakes of european policy makers. i never thought i never believed that the not stream to gas pipeline would be what would be suspended as it has been, because i assumed that that was a natural life and germany. well, it has now been suspended. and don't forget that this is the suspension occurs. we

all know this in the context of decor, well, yes, decades now of green policy, they're talking more and more about reducing c o 2 emissions and using hydrocarbons . this is almost a windfall for the southern russia crisis because they can start to implement that green policies. and we've never underestimate the power of ideology. and in 1917, you could have said, soviet communism doesn't make any economic sense, but it took 70 years. it took many generations of all terrible damage inflicted on, on russia and on soviet society before these contradictions. which of course, are there, you talk about contradictions, vladimir, yes, there, there. they can stay in place, these contradictions for nearly a century. while the economy of the country is concerned, suffer unto these contradictions. contradictions don't necessarily collapse very quickly. and you know, we see our crisis off the crisis in europe and not just the ukraine crisis,

but also cove. it a monetary crisis of 20 o 8. these things are often, i think we're responding to with decisions, which in fact will lead to fall west crises down the line. but that doesn't stop these decisions from continuing to be taken. reality is not getting through at this point, and that's what makes me so as a mistake about the reality is coming through this or to lease a so the price leisure minute eula, or he is going to one year on 40. so that is double, the price was cheer and it means that every household will pay some very when in order to delivery or this is a zip i as

e commerce or as yet it's just for people to do. ok, vladimir, i mean, given you know, the confiscation of russian assets and whatnot. i mean, i don't, i'm not talking about yachts and stuff like that. i don't care about billionaires. i really don't. but our president has been sent to the west is not a reliable partner. they don't believe in the rule of law anymore. and so, i mean again, i don't see, i don't have any kind of historical attachment to this relationship here. i'm pragmatic. ok, and i'm not ideological. and so mixing up this ideology and then refuting you the are your basic principles, like the rule of law. i mean, why do you want to parlay with anyone like that, vladimir, you know, what we have to consider is that the time of peter, the grade of was, europe was a kind of dominant force at least logically and so on. and he definitely wanted to turn toward europe, but there isn't like elephant in the room. you know,

there is east, there is china, there is india. and eventually they'll be. so the alignment and that's what we're talking about. it's kind of a reality, this message what united states in europe is sending, that they can seize the assets and so on. it's a dangerous one message again saying that they can be used one country as a for the brought to war. it's a little dangerous one, china difference, it gets with united states one to accomplish through taiwan through hong kong and so on. so this is where i live in. so you, for the ball in the reality such that, ok, you know, you don't want to rush an oil fine, it can go, it can flow eastward. and then, you know, as, as gilbert says, you know, europeans will get a lesson and i am actually much more optimistic where examples and john hammond lived at the dismantled and also doing. and i remember when i was the just people saw that the soviet union will go on forever. but nevertheless, at that moment and i don't want to go. ready in the soviet history,

there was sort of progressive moments isn't died, but at least you know, and so, and is 8 is it was a reason. it's not on the world that the whole thing is just meddling and we did it . you've totally different country. so things are changing. so vladimir, did you like me? right? you're giving me hub, let me go to january. so you, given what you know, the, the, the thought that the soviet union would never come to the end communist will never come to. and so, john, we do, we do have hope that the, you and nato can come to an end. john, well, everything comes to an end, eventually at 60, in the politics. but i, as i say, i do not think that the end is in sight. or we've, we've seen the nato deciding to expand further in these last weeks. there's still a lot of less life left in the system. a manual michael has just been reelected in france. even though there's very little support for him. the system continues to, to, to prosper. and of course, i'm aware of the rising energy prices,

and of course i think the sanctions are suicidal. but i have thought that policy decisions going back more than 10 years was suicidal, i think want to piecing is suicidal. but it's part of the program at davos. so last week they talked about how they would be a significant reductions in or in the standard of living all over the world because of the climate crisis and, and because of the response to it, that's part of the program. so if people have to pay more for their a fuel oil that suits the green agenda, fine and the green a gender is what dominates europe and america at the moment. so that's why i'm afraid i of course, i wish reality would break in. but well, i don't see any splendid john, we're rapidly running out of time. but all of these people, the davos law ghouls, you know, they have all these great ideas, but they'll never suffer as a result of their own ideas. all right? as all the time we have gem, i want to thank my gets and parents,

province and in st. petersburg. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are see, see you next time. remember grossbach rules ah ah, ah luis hunter, russia state never be tied up on the no santini destination. i'm not getting calls, i'll send them out for a group in the 55 with this being. okay, so mine is group i'm speaking with. we will van in the european union, the kremlin, ca, yep, machine. the state on russia for date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with

ah, my name is frank la regencia. so adults youth got in the move in the age of 13 or 14, we were violent towards those people because we believe that were in the race. we were here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power. when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible, him accepted when i talked to level life after, hey, is an organization that was founded by for a skinhead neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each

other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get half is 2 parts to getting out of a violent extreme was the 1st part of disengagement which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization work belief systems ology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, she heard my story did nothing to challenge it. validate ah, since the break away of the donates people's republic, one has been ranging and don't boss. ukrainian artillery has been showing civilian, townsend, mining, villages for your more lovely deal. with what you want with

a live video. little boys will give us more than one. ah, russia slams as rudy terrorism. what seems to be the deliberate destruction of more than $50000.00 tons of grain by ukrainian troops. that comes, i made a warning global food crisis. that's as un admit that there's no proof to western claims that moscow is plundering ukraine's grain and shipping it to its own buyers . this however, does not stop washington from reportedly warning african countries against buying russian supplies amid the food is stuck with our t crew. find that document saying ukrainian, neo nazi battalion fighters were mining civilian areas in the dorm.