ah you know, there was no program when i left i kind of and all of us at life after hate, kind of stumbled our way through it. and then we can take the lessons that we've learned from that and shrink the time frame down. so there's less was less wandering in the wilderness, so to speak. when i was in the move in the last 2 years, and before i left, i was struggling with do i want to leave? i part of me want to leave another part in it's been battle with us. if i leave, i have nothing to fall back on. i have that deposit. do i have nobody to go to? you know me and live around last 7 years. i have nothing. sometimes it's hard if they've got a swastika tattooed on their neck, it's hard for them, but just to say, i don't do that anymore. it's kind of

a long process. it's not like you just leave it one day and you're like, well, i'm glad that's over. i had been out of movement before i got connected with these guys, but i was on my own and didn't talk about it and a lot of buried shame and guilt. and then i met these guys and i saw, you know, frankly talking arnold dog. it helped me get past that barrier of feeling like i had to hide this from world that opening up has really just taken my mind you in process and my allusion to a whole other level. really. you've got to find a way to find an affirmation that every discussion, no matter how bad it feels that it's going, you've just got to be organized like takes guts to do that. try to help them discover the abilities that they have. this is why we don't want to foster dependency. this is why the intervention can't rely on my christmas. they go from being untrusted hateful, spiteful, distant to begging for more interaction another phone call. another meeting in tell

me poor and don't be surprised when they say that's the best conversation i've had in a long time. that is something that's very routine that comes out of people just want to be listened to. and we're trying to teach you how to listen to them. well, we hold a mirror up so the person can see their humanity reflected back at them through our and when we treat them as human beings treat them for the suffering person that they are. and they, on the receiving end of that, they get to see that, hey there's, there is a human insights. and lastly, i think the incredible power of compassion, it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, she heard my story did nothing to challenge it but validated the soon as i started talking about, my mother tears came off. i just spilled my guts about everything she had done to me letting her brother rate me and my sister denying the rape half and making us go back around. how many times she she tried to kill me, broken bones,

bruises the starvation, the sleep deprivation, the humiliation making me swallow my own. my brothers and sisters watching is turning my brother against me. keep my sister away from you, like i had never had a chance to just unleash all that. and i probably went on like an hour of just the stuff she did to me. and he says, well, i want to ask another question. you're sorry. have you ever done this to anyone else? just in that moment it was like i'm just like my mother take me. what really changed me was receiving compassion from the people that i least deserved from when

i least deserved. people knew who i was, it was a small town, they knew what i was capable of and what i'd been doing for years and they didn't attack me. they didn't break the windows of my star, then argue ideologically with me. they came in and they were empathetic towards me, and they treated me with compassion, despite the horrible person that i was at the time the do i want to say it and i was a kid. i'm so still very germany. we are in, you couldn't really put with investment in for me, they dropped me off and they were full pay me on my paying money. and i was told and probably still have the ideology you've been and they've taken away

their analysis. so, i mean, there, all kinds of things that they can just sort of vol briefing. you know, if you're going to be on the outside, we need to know everything you know about how it works on the inside, cuz you're not going back in. so we're, since we're going to burn those help you burn those bridges. so you can't go back and take everything away that was associated with that world. we take away your white lace that it's to eat his systems in the ideology. going to go get an anti mental from the cobra and also make it an empty metal and we had the answer. so i do believe the secret sauce is coming from a loving place. you can't hate this person and expect to communicate any of that. you can't charge this person and expect to calmer, that with empathy before you got out what was what was pushing you to want to get out. and, you know, like, you know how you have to be so you tend to be it. and after a while to become that image, we're just so where does that shift come from? how come you said they were inside the school and open this?

i use a poison, a lot of humans vision number of anti muslim. hey groups turn know about their culture. a nation he recognizes diversity that always quite spoke to some kind of populous message, white nelson's tens of thousands. there's hundreds of thousands of them that have an intellectual curiosity. if you are bigotry or anti semitic, i think what we're concerned about now for it was with the protestors gathering outside the site of the only reason my to say. but

i would say read the notion that they really were that way to find a do the noise, the chip with a

by itself. so you know, swastika check whose witness guy guys going to get killed that he's got to help this guy covered the same people who fan, oh we have we have a guy who's saying people said a message that hey, when i approach randy, you know i, i came home, i don't want to talk to you, you know,

understand you. he will cool. no problem the whole time. we couldn't really have a discussion because the camera you know, you people tell me was it was more intimate said neil, i no problem talking to me like really and i guess our intimate setting was forced on if we were both keep out. so we encounter some police officers and they were treat randy, how they would treat me on a regular day. you know, just awful what they perceived by is our parents. and i didn't want to do. yeah, i don't want to write this major got beat on spin, all you see the spit on the back of your mouth with what is he doing wrong? why you sit on the ground, do this type of stuff. so we actually start walking and talking and we find out we have things in common. you know, i some his views about certain bay area. it was certain girl and both. yeah. he was

telling me he got involved in his teenage years in the area nation. and that's how a lot of my friends and different people get involved in the blood to groups in different games they join around you. so whatever the around you and your friends may be involved, whatever. 6 your mind is going to be on that. so for me, i saw the similarities of what my culture would deal with just in a little different way. there's no, there's nothing new up on it. a son, he was just a different route thing. re whiteman angry wagner. 2 different than the angry black man is angry because he has no home has no vision. he has no way to provide angry white people, especially low income cause they have so many mental enrollment. and you can just turn on the tv and see success. i mean, now i would be deprived to if you know, down at the bottom with black people, when they got a reason to be you know, i'm white. what am i know? it isn't easy to see the thing around and you know, when your doctor,

the doctor, any better way to focus at anger that they don't nice people is a different color, i guess a white man angry cuz he doesn't really understand with america. he doesn't even say i got the way out for the blessed waiting to hear the back. i mean, everybody. that's why it in america has benefited on give me a call or a mr. mr. busy right now, giving me or help me. i got somebody to understand that just myself but my culture as a whole and look it differently. just because of my individual encounter. we talk to every week or 23 times. we lease that lease due to time

phone calls, you know, our phone calls and we've broward me . i mean, when you think about what you've done just in the last month, the turn around the correction done what you've abandoned and what you adopted. it's most people can't even lose a 10 pounds, they want to lose much less make an entire mental, emotional and lifestyle change to humanize town, which allowed him to humanize your liking that that's not rocket science, but yeah, it's, it's evading. the majority of the country right now, there's me, laughlin, i could never get anybody erin and brotherhood a nation, or anybody who got lots of on look at them saying why? because i got free and that was part of his pain and your narrative and changed his narrative. it's not that we agree with anything that comes out of the far right. is that will don't ever forget that there are people inside of those people. you know

that there's a human being inside of this person, right, and we just choose not to forget that we don't really see x not seeing a vitamin, you know, have a lot of dialogue as we do. but i mean, i can consider him a friend. i was glad if i could have that effect on randy to open his eyes up to see that you know something different. a c, whatever may have been, you know, introduced to him or told him was proven to be a lot of their day in madison. but, and i think we often think about this and terms of the ways in which they are failing us. they are bad men,

they are floating away from us. they are deviant. and i think we, we need to ask the other question. also, we need to ask the question of how we are failing them. what kind of ways can we keep them in the center? and part of my answer to that is we have to find ways to keep them validated as men . it's really amazing. when people feel more whole quickly and how easily ideology of hate falls away and if you can reconnect them to the people that they thought they hated, it helps build that. so that they realize that they're actually a part of the solution rather than contributing to the problem the 1st time i've ever felt accepted any shape or form from anybody is actually with y after have another p 5 med just recently. i feel if it's degraded so

i want everybody to know the human being here instead of like a mission that is but i have person to be able to have the different cultures and different people here. it really is good to be able to cause it to be able to interact because it teaches me that, you know, we're all in this together. this is a part of our solution and farmers are, are evolving into a powerful force and justice quality from love, peace, compassion. we are operating as human beings from one of 2 places. here are, let me get to choose which one that is still happening in the days following boston happened. it was such a turn out and just seemed that a mortgage support for countering that narrative of white supremacy it really

flooded me with hope. i am proud that i can be a voice against what i use stamps or i saw it as i have something to among the bigger and better things. while i'm still mindful of what i owe to society. but no one's better served by my guilty shame at this point, including me. me. i fired a r, christina, a glock at this time, said one suspect song about molly and you need to die. we're still communicating with him and he's got an automatic weapon,

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hello and welcome to cross hawk were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, a 3 and and 50th anniversary of peter the grades. birth is june 9. he ruled from 168221725 founded the city of saint petersburg as russians window to europe has his dream of russia being part of europe come to an end. at this point, the sings very likely, ah, cross sucking russia and europe, i'm joined by my guest on laughlin in paris. he's a university lecture in history and political philosophy in st. petersburg. we have gilbert doctorow. he's an independent political analyst, an author, a memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 19 ninety's and bravo.