the cross talking russia in europe, i'm joined by my guess adrenal can santa in london. he is founder of k consulting and a foreign affairs analyst in brussels. we have lucre bay, he's an independent journalist and, and mirror cash we call to martin j. he's an award winning journalist and commentator. i gentleman cross talk roles and in fact that means you can jump any in time anytime you want. all right, ed real. let me go to you 1st in london. there's the complet continues to drag on in europe at the behest of the u. k. i have to say and washington, what is the n game here? what, what does europe get out of all of this? because all i see is a lot of downside and subservience to washington. and to some degree, london, london, they left the european union, but now they're back through the back door of nato. it's amazing. a role in london . i think that no one is pretty much sure. what is the end game? i mean, the game, i mean most people familiar with the case from 2014 until now. i think it

might be in the worst case scenario, a nuclear war. but people in the west not very much keen to pay attention to what the moscow is saying. they are not very much king to pay attention more. the independent journalist, an analyst, a saying i my so most recently conducted the interview process. jeffery facts were worn at the united nations. the father escalation of the company might lead to the potential nuclear exchange between the western russia. but people don't, don't get it. i think that because of the fact that the west hadn't seen war for many years, people somehow don't get it. they seen it on the screen and they

associate war with something that is played on the play station or x box. but really and truly my generation don't know what the world war and the consequences a war off. that's why they are ridiculous position of russian fight. and that's why they are really getting these competency on the title, mr. chillies. because this compet could have been prevented very easily in february if the western side would have provided guarantee security guarantee russia. but apparently a russia is not in the position to have the same security rights of other countries in the west. and we have found that out, martin, let me go to you and mirror cash. basically the same question because what is europe getting out of this conflict? as is been just pointed out, could have been easily avoided. okay, going back to the december 17th, the 2 notes, one to the european. i'm on one to that nato and went to the united states here.

very clear with the russians wanted and they didn't take it seriously. so are the europeans, serious now in what is their goal in pursuing this conflict and backing zalinski and backing ukraine? that is losing very badly on the battlefields go headlong. yeah, i think it's pretty obvious for me, it's quite simple. i mean, i was in brussels for 11 years and i understand the psyche of how the official sort of thing. i think they won't chaos. i think they want a justification, a reason to boost themselves. geopolitically and militarily. and it's been on the calls for very, very long time. use the word seriously. are they taking the russian seriously that we haven't been taking russian seriously for a very, very long time. we look at the timeline, we go back to not only forward agreement, strong enough between the you and russia, there was a lot of good with a lot of positive thinking is from media sending really want to be part of the story and the lead time, but you know, we lost, i think a lot of credibility was last,

that 3 is the latest assign it because of chechnya and that was the 1st red flag. i think the 2nd flag came about a decade later, when a number of frontline neighboring countries, russia were offered some sort of association agreement with the net, with neighborhood including ukraine. that was another slap in the face. and so the new, the nominee just continued to rush of humiliation. and then finally in 2014, you know, to offer ukraine a special association agreement which is just one step away from an exception. i think that blew a fuse. they went over alliance. they were never serious. you will never actually have a serious about taking russia in as a real partner's real plow because they wanted to impose the had gemini on russia from the very beginning, russia kick back on that bright from the early days. i think this is now the accumulation of the situation we have now when we talk about and n k is i think the you, itself is capitalizing on this conflict to give itself a boost and to justify a new army,

to scrap the voting rules so that the type system that works on the shortest time you talk about london and doris johnson, i think that was very much a play for distraction for him to actually shift the media camera away from so a lot of domestic policies which are failing. and so just some examples. so sensing about origin, we binds history and in ukraine goes back before to son 14. and you know, there's a, there's a certain bad taste in the mouth of his cheer from school lunches. so when the end game really is to push russia further away, i believe. okay, well, i mean that's about martin. that's going to happen. look, that's good. that's going to happen. i mean, i, whatever the outcome on the battlefield is the sanctions will not come down. ok, the sanctions will probably stay in effect forever. so it's a divorce. that's what i'm calling this program. bitter divorce. so when there is a divorce, luke, each side get some assets. what's the asset that you know the europe gets?

there's a get the house. there's a keep the dog, i mean what, what is it get from all of this? have i see is misery look, go ahead. i wonder indeed, but there is in this for europe, strictly, nothing in my brain. certainly nothing. for america is clear in all day of the bridge, it doctrine was that russia had to be isolated. and the worst that could happen for the americans was that germany and russia would work together. that was to be avoided at all costs while they're succeeded. they come to sell their liquefied gas ross seeds and future as a very high price and great profits. so for americans, everything's fine, they will sell their wage as well. but for, you know, nothing. i mean, we lose the source of our energy and we don't sell anything anymore to russia. so it's awful. the situation, the only thing we gain is that is a country which is completely bankrupt. you crying with 40000000 poor people to join euro dash one. thank you. ok, well i,

i drill. i mean it again the political leader gary are gaining capital all out of all of this here. but i mean, when you, when france, they're giving out food vouchers, you know, we, we could see the rationing of energy during the winter. i mean, i mean, did anybody think i had, because i can tell you the russians have been thinking about this in 2014, after the illegal overthrow of the legal government in, in ukraine. so they've thought this all out here is anybody thinking it out in europe? hello, unfortunately not in my opinion. i agree with a chuckle edition, very famous up a close school and i missed the recently said, the only statesman and in europe is a fine mr. arbor, who is standing for a, he's a country, is national interest, and he's the most vocal edition in europe currently. also,

he's wanted to go on to raj as well, who is calling me out loud calling him. i tried calling the bus and he's, i'm having a serious mental problems, but i'm not going to follow that. what i'm trying to say is that i will disagree with the previous commentator that europe is getting nothing. what we are getting his poverty. what we're getting is a great reset us the most people say that we will have nothing and we will be happy. this is what we are saying. we have a skyrocketing inflation in united states. we have skyrocketing inflation here in this country in the united kingdom, but everyone is using you create as a substitute, but i know, but this is, this is just a transition. they keep it, it's a, it's a tough transition, but you know, it's a transaction, but it's a transition for home. they keep the power,

they keep their riches and everybody else gets poor. that's what this great reset is all about. martin jump in before we go to the break. yeah. and how long can it last? you know, we keep talking about this so called war of attrition. you know, but it's really a, it's tom game, isn't it? you know, and i think the big question now is, how much stamina does european union and new countries have, thus, is what russia's got in stock? i think we massively miscalculated this. i, we're heading towards a brick wall. well, yeah, i'm let me, let me say to you before we go to the break. i mean, as we speak right now, there are divisions in europe. the, the older europe and new europe there be, you know, as rumsfeld said, but i mean, how can, what's going to be after the conflict the mean? is there still going to be internal contradictions in the european? i mean, how do they move forward here? when they're not even unified, now go ahead, keep going. exactly. i think division division on more bricks. it's, you know, i see there's a, there's a streets that there's really a line right on the middle of the you countries, you're on the right. you've got

a number eastern european countries to a much more trutland assist and more pragmatic above their role and, and a very wary about getting brussels more power, more federalist superpower. and so i think, come, i think we can seek to vision more chaos. and how does that translate? that translates of the polls in 2024 to far more fall right? m p 's getting seats, which in many ways you know, any you, a mandarin will tell you, is the beginning of the end from european union. so i see on the doom and gloom for the european union. let me, let me jump in here. let me get in the loop before we go to the break, reflect on what we just heard from martin. go ahead look that. oh, i think we'll see a lot of think appointing between the leaders in europe. i'll let say this went to probably one things get really worse. now, the cost of the, the leisure of agile, and the say she used to roll in more than 2 euro. but when it reaches 30,

there will be a lot of questioning from the citizens getting really poor by the day, with inflation on land cost of energy going, getting higher and cost of food as well. so this is a disaster. but look where they, who are they gonna blame their leaders or they get a blue blame potent they come and try to blame today, but i think the people will well not follow this. we will realize more in the, in the coming months that we put ourselves, we are so sorry i can. it's what i wanted to hear. we're going to go to a quick break. and after back break, we'll continue our discussion on rush in europe. same with ah,

need to come to the russian state little narrative. i've stayed as i'm phone and ignore santini div, asking him, i'm not getting calls all sons and up for a group in the 55. would this be the case on? i need to speak with ben in the european union. the kremlin, ca, yep, machines. the state aren't russia for date and square r t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with me. ah, well john middle alex, she's just she columbia. no,

nothing from nobody but i just want to thank her lego that he thought young real name is logical, was wild goose of college. cool with orange, a fit on which it is public your theater beer we normally think enough feel of had the flu make. he's got his night fortune with the bush and below that season. now she did the way values equal revealing autism research. see know that the there, those are so with that i don't, i don't but it'll go by certain deal. this wouldn't have happened if nato vida didn't push this agenda. this war was that because i'm here this week or so on the start a city to what about a nadia decided with nothing. whatever the case did anyone up up

with his was put is okay to film to fit with wis chemba with me. ah ah, welcome back across stock were all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you we're discussing russia in europe with

okay, let's go back to london ariel. if you, if you look at the biden administration's foreign policy, it's an unmitigated disaster just about everywhere you look. however one, and it's kind of a, a backhanded success i would say, is that they have unified europe behind the united states. now, i posit and watching this conflict is that sure america has a sealed, it's a gemini over europe. okay. but it's kind of a pirate victory, isn't it? i mean, a, that part of the content is just going to get poor more isolated, less probate productivity. and misery, i mean, what kind of price is that? it's like $13.00 place pink ribbon. go ahead in london. i think the, you know, by the administration not united states by the administration. sure is so in the food. because if we look at the polls, whatever pulls, whether this is provided by

n, b, c, or harvard university. by them has the lowest possible appreciation from, from the citizens of, among the presidents who are really a country. so these are pretty popular, but what he's doing is, i mean he's, he's capable to do this because he's an old man. i mean, he will not be prosecuted for what he's doing. so whatever he's doing he's doing this is mine, that he will not get any consequences for what he's doing and he knows what he's doing. so i would not say that the bible ministration is mad. no there, you know, the playing according to the plan. i mean, the impoverishment of the american citizens or 1st of all now they will be back to. busy his guns because they will be the militarized. so the average citizens will not have the same access to the guns. i used to apparently,

and also because of the fact that they are because of the inflation and gas prices . they will not be able to live to the american stand as they used to a. 2 2 festival at present binder and his mom administration is acting against his own people and also against the people around the world. and at the same time he's blaming the put in and obviously yeah, they hated credit. i mean, if we continue with your line of argument, i mean this means that they just know better than everyone else. ok. by your electric car. ok. i read that. yeah, that's right. that's what i'm getting. yeah, that's what i'm getting at. exactly. i mean, this is the rule by the experts so that they, they routing by the measures. they see digits and they don't see human beings behind this digits. they, you know, they are the sacrifice of the emotions,

human emotions, open a, they know what they know, what's best for us. remember that the dub dub, those ghouls, they know what spencer martin, what's really interesting about this conflict is someone pointed out in media is that, you know, most war president get a bump in the polls, but there's no bum for biden. but the reason is very clear, why that isn't the case because it's an elite war. this is not a popular war. this is an elite driven war. martin. yeah, we should come when and you know, i think that the the previous comment of some buying being oh, which medicine chuckle is quite run of. but i don't think he's really planning to even stick around to, to receive the long term opprobrium from press or from others who are holding to account for screwing up the economy. and i think ruin relations with european you make quite a big deal piece of this relationship between the you and biden,

and i have to take you to task one is, i don't agree with you. i don't agree that there is this great friendship is great ship. i think that go i my home. no, i'm not saying it's friendship. not at all. okay. i think it's, it's cold. calculated geo politics. keep going. yeah. you say it's forced to germany. it's america basically leaning on the europeans. they've always done that, you know, ever since i arrived in brussels in 1995, i was was shocked now in the main international institutions in brussels, morris for the americans on practically everything. it's embarrassing. i mean, it's really shameful, and i think it's part of that the identity of the e u, which is losing its role as, as he is losing the popularity falls with the fiasco covered. and the, all these things accumulated together now to cushing, you to actually have his own policies, its own independent army, you know, so it doesn't take the orders of washington. so i think there's a contradiction going on there, but it's never going to end. well, i mean, if that division carries on and the european union gets what it wants,

which is more power federally speaking, then that's bad news to everybody. and i think there's no, there's no test cases. there's no, there's no experience, no track record is all experimental and you know, when you start making these huge for raisins, international channel politics with, with surprise, arms to regime like ukraine. you know, you wonder where that's going to and i, i can't, i can't see a rosy picture for anybody. i think we're pushing washer into the arms of china into india. i see a new brick. then bricks is a success story. but i think it's only gonna get more successful, longer this will consume. yeah, look, it's a, it seems to me, i mean, the, this whole effort to isolate russia, isolate russia, but it's not isolated at all. and the more the europeans do this, the more they isolate themselves. i mean, it's so counterproductive for them. luke, in brussels, react, well, if you look at the sake is 84 percent of the world population doesn't follow the west, doesn't follow your kind of america. so this is the isolation,

it's on our side. we are oscillating ourselves. we are, we are making sure that europe will not be leaving the world in the future for sure . for sure. you know america, martin. thank they will go china. i stare, of course, but you know it's, it's really going to the pits. and at the same time, the frenzy of support for ukraine is fading out slowly. here, you know, for a time, you don't believe that when, when the school, i don't know based on what on explorations experts on tv. but this is fading out. and when winter comes and the difficulty is linked to the energy issue, then the questions will come up and are both the eurocrats and, and european commission brussels that he's trying to suppress the rule of unanimity in the european accounts. it shows how, how terrified they are often disagree with,

well, they're, they're terrified of democracy in general. ok. they really are. ok, i mean, what was it during breaks ago? we've had too many referenda that's, you know, that, that's anti democratic. it's, it's the, at the essence, it is ok, and it will let me go back, you in london. and now i understand that the polls have initiated a st. 7 throne of sanctions against russia. well, it will, why does interest russia sanction europe once and just turn off the energy, go ahead. it could have russia, but russia doesn't have to sanction those people. i mean, they're coming down. so russia is just doing its own policy and rightly so, it's concentrating on the voting away from the west. i mean, it's very rational and i agree with this. i mean, a scone just recently a pen, a article, a another saying that west is isolated. so from the rest of the world, russia that is sending it all in gas to india,

is sending it an oil and grain to china. i mean, who would like to, i mean, they will accommodate, i mean, russia is our people don't understand it. i mean, in the long run, euro will be home and future generation will remember what the euro across the us because it will have a long lasting impact on this continent. we will be irrelevant in the geopolitical role in international affairs. we just know as they like to coin it between russia and china, we will be a junior partner, not even a servant of the united states, which is a mom a let me go to europe is going to be a junior partner that has to pay a steeply for energy and if you're going to have your own army,

you have to buy american made. ok. i mean, every step of the way, martin, you said in the beginning the program, the europeans didn't take russia seriously. do you think they take russia seriously now? that i, i think i have to, you know, they, they realizing that rushes go a lot more staying power. and also more importantly, i think the point was made earlier. you know, that some media is starting to lose his interest in the ukraine will quite quickly . i was in london last week, and i had a cheeky lunch time drink with a and a sort of a national newspaper. a can't tell which one. but he told me that i lost 2 or 3 weeks. the interest of reduce, the ukraine's plummeted dramatically. and i think that's also going to have a barrier on, on public perception, on how res receive use it is, is, is the you taking russia seriously? it will have to a certain point when people around the world who don't really want to get involved in this conflict, the global south african nations, for example, who miss recently recently met butin, you know, those,

those partners who may be forced to choose between them a ross will say, no, we're going to play that game. you know, we, we don't have the same problem with, with russia and russia and sons of some colony in some former colonies in africa. puget proved to be very resourceful for countries like monte, we've helped them with internal security, for example. so i think come, there's going to be a little division and it's only gonna home the european union that it starts to look like. not even a junior plan, maybe even a long class. i think the 1st casualty in this conflict will be the use own diplomatic international department. i think we're going to see the end of this job is fast of ease. so good foreign policy, i think as can be the 1st victim, you know, and russia always was more comfortable anyway, talking to a member states individually, a multi laterally and i think that's just kind of enhanced that's just going to increase to the point where no one is talking to the, this ciocca in brussels usa burrell, you know,

the man so incredibly boring that when he was parliament president, that actually video footage, people nodding off in class will mark me apparently he's a poly gods, but i, i hear you can speak gibberish. and 7 language, it's really quite amazing. look at we have one minute laugh, finish off the program for us. okay. well, i guess it was said earlier that um, the situation for europe geopolitical situation is forcing. mr. michael says that we should humiliate russia a profile position of agree on turkey with helping out in this conflict. why did you do anything except code stores? i think it's technical what we're doing to ourselves here in europe. and people only start to realize in the coming months because now it still took began that copy paste on what key of his saying, but it is changing slowly and i hope it does. yeah, well i think i, we,

i like game of thrones and one of the great means of game of thrones is winter is coming gentlemen. it will be fun. yeah, i'm, i'm sure it's sergeant schultz will be cheering on, you know, the, the, that the a, you, i'm, it's a prevails with russia. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guess in london, brussels, and in america. what i think our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember, cross talk with today, i'm authorized the additional strong sanction foreign companies quitting russia, numbers on to one. thank you. this glycine. so atm console. blantan banks disconnected from the international payments system is functional hoppey, jermel donna and euro exchange rates follow up on a level up articles more so. so what are what the committee met that evoke and the

billing address that is the current, can you say no sir? material because i'm a sports room in russian business. overcome this song. c. yeah, i bought it to the nazi to huddle. she instrument, she tells me don't press voice bullshit. not productive notches, steal a miracle, what i see. and so when you come, when you look at the employer, they've already got a cost to get the group when you, when you're speaking with dr. new person who is a delusion, gets a little bit, you know, the most with a day becomes the advocate and engagement. it was the trail.

when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. and united states has always had the right tools to use and tax on other countries economic sanctions or are often just the beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about here. and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country to talk to. we have a responsibility for the whole world and we need to make room for the rest.

because without us there, we can do our russian forces. i believe to have played a key pool in southern ukraine office thinking and navy cool that russia foreign minister, criticizes poland, president of what he calls an attempt to assimilate. ukrainian territory again, now bubbles the thing that european diplomats are not speaking to negotiate with russia. and so it takes 2 to tango and at the moment our western partners are engaged in break dancing by themselves. african countries back russia in opposing a western unipolar world. according to one of the architects of most goes foreign.