west to day, but this did not have to be the wes attempts to cripple the russian economy. have failed, as well as the attempt to isolate russia. the west is isolated itself. i crossed sucking rushes relations with the west. i'm joined by my guess, michael maloof in washington. he's a for a pentagon senior security policy analyst in corpus, chris. we have micro flannigan, he is president of planning and consulting in a former congressman. and here in moscow we have maxine swartzkoff. he is the director of the institute of international studies at moscow state institute of international relations. i, gentleman cross our rules and the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it. right, michael, i'm in washington dc. let me go 1st. i want to ask all 3 of you the same question? do we have any irreversible split with in russia, west relations? go ahead. michael in washington. yeah. yep. he did. i think we do. i and i think it is something that the united states brought on itself in the west for that matter.

but at the urging and pushing of the united states took the by the minute administration and the nic neoconservatives who are in it like victoria newland. this is an effort and a purposeful effort by them to contain and ultimately have regime change in russia . and i think that this was the catalyst for a mr. potent to say ok, enough's enough because the united states just pushed moscow to its own limits and, and, and in so doing push the, the european countries to, to follow suit reluctantly. they, they've dead and, and already were stand splits there. but this is, this is something where moscow now is a look at to creation of a new multi polar world order, as i see it along with russia along with china rather. and iran, turkey, and all the other members of the shanghai cooperation organization and the bridge

countries. so i see that this is an irreversible trend. and i don't think it's a bad thing. i think it's going to get them out from under the, the western financial system dependency. and also create a, an entirely different economic order that is going to be more constructive than destructive that we've seen on the part of the united states over the past 20 years . ok, micro planning on the same question to you we reversible split and michael my loops opinion. this is basically a good thing. i tend to agree with them. your thoughts, my friend? well i'm, i'm furious. peter. any the come to me before michael maloof because we agree on most things, but i need to say it 1st of the, the michael is correct and most things really i disagree slightly in, in the ultimate impact. we need to have a multi. ready polar world, i think that that is an absolutely good thing when you have a bipolar world. i mean that in definitional sense not in its pharmaceutical sense,

you have every one is either. ready for you or against you, and you can't view the world in that way, there has to be room for neutrality or indifference to dealing with its own problems. and so, i believe we baited russia over the years, but, but then russia's reaction, i think, is also extreme, perhaps not to the russian point of view, but it's the most other people's and, but it's predictable. and that's the problem. we need to move away from a bipolar. ready worlds were multi polar. ready world and, and you'll find, even in the writings of president eisenhower and a generalized narrative, president eisenhower was very skeptical of remaining in nato and thought it would be very good idea if we ended the organization once it's so it's real purpose of being able to fight back naziism was over a resurgence of not to them, so it's up to, to continue to view the world of you love me or you hate me is crazy. we have to be able to allow it to do it, behave in its own independence,

in its own best interests, provided it doesn't leave its borders. and i think, you know, the real pain in the world. the real pain that's coming is from china and to dr. russia away from it's european friends it's, it's ancient european capacity to it's eastern capacity is, is unhelpful. it's stupid, it's insane. but it's, you know, it's joe biden. the man is a walking disaster, foreign policy wise and always. and then this is not a surprise. so i pray that we get through this well. yeah. and that we can work together again. yeah, it's surprised, but it's a bit very predictable at the same time. and i, i think this is a bipartisan thing. i mean, i agree on criticism about biting texture, but i mean it's bipartisan. okay, make sure you're correct, maxime, i'm you know, the same question do, and i want to have a little extra caveat for you and the situation with colleen and grab. i mean, again, i mean just a, a increasing the escalation of tension right here. i mean,

russia had agreements with lithuania, with the european union, about transport of cargo and people. and now that is being the, any is being up there. i mean, this is why i'm calling the program irreversible split. i mean, this is intentional, increasing a pensions here. go ahead max. a few things i want to mention. a monopoly is for the hedge fund or monopolist in 1st place for them in the short run with federal law. i think the united states today is ultimately we can learn how to strength lemar. so what we're seeing now, i agree with my colleagues in the sense that we do need it a little more all a century world. we have. 1 ultimately, i think the, the current divorce that we're seeing is going to weaken both the west. and there's

not necessarily who think for either actor in the sense that they will be weaker in fiji, other challenges, not just from you know, what non western powers, but also, you know, our transnational challenges, no corporation between a russian lesson in that sense. i think it's, it's, it's a, it's a loss for bo, i think whether the slit is reversible. it looks like it's going to be long term. ultimately i it will change because look, missouri basically weren't the west guess is that the current establishes are conducting policies that will ultimately bring to power the people. and that may entail in some change in the western attitude, i think may be good for russia. he said over the past few years, it was

a certain gap in between the leadership in technology so trans, in their value system. and so for russia, you know, be tangled from logical asperger's in my best buy the tangled from the value system east. i think i'm michael in, in washington to me. i, you've already kind of alluded to it here. i mean, when we look at these, these are sanctions and all that. i mean, and they still haven't had fully impacted rush. i want my audience to understand that. i mean, it's not a bed of roses here and, and there's a lot of predictions. and 3rd, and 4th quarter things will deteriorate on with the russian economy. however, having said that, i mean the impact is very real and very painful on western polities, on, on, on western consumers here. i mean, it's, it's almost to the point of just irrational. you want to cut off russia from everything that has to do with the west, but you're it, it's self inflicted wounds. it's really extraordinary to witness michael in

washington. yeah, i think it's backfired on the united states. as i said earlier, i think that this is something that clearly moscow and it has as basically very more your asian and in the your ration direction and this and it has picked up other friends. i don't think it's isolating itself. i think it's corinne and that this brand new opportunity in the, in addition to a world order that it does kind of occur. and actually the, the rubel has strengthened as a result of the sanctions that hasn't weakened. and we're seeing that, that there are some difficulties within the russian economy. sure. but your, your, your, your gas prices and everything else are relatively stable. and, and the in you're seeing that, that the economy in the, in the west, however, has suffered dermot tremendously. and i think it's backfired and, and you're going to see the european countries already, which are fracturing in terms of their unit unity beginning to look more east where

they are exporting countries and the ride up in the, if they're in the neighborhood, in effect. and they're going to look more closely to russia and to the east, looked at the one of the 1st benchmarks of this trend trip transfer to a, a multi polar world order, which has many definitions. by the way. it is something that began in may of 2018 when, when the trump dropped out of the j. c. p. away, i happened to be in iran the week that that happened. and you could just sense that something tremendous as had happened, that there is going to be a major shift as a consequence of between east and west. and it actually has occurred, and it's built upon that. and it has improved upon that. so you have the s, c o, you have the, the bricks, as i said, you have the eurasia economic cooperation, union, economic cooperation, doug, a group coming together. and all of these are going to form a and approach it in the world that's going to be much greater in terms of

population and in terms of thrust than we see in the west. and you're going to see western countries beginning to peel off and look to them because they, as exporting countries, they need those markets in the east, and they're going to be look in that in that direction. it michael in corpus christi, m e. well, what i fully expect is a doubling down of everything, so the sanctions didn't work. so what else is going down here? i mean, there's, there's an, you know, there's a discursive problem here in the, you know, russia must not win, that's the mantra in the west. but it should have been, we need peace and peace for every one. and they continue to say, no, russia can't win were and that's almost putting ukraine as a footnote to all of this one minute before we go to the break. here michael and chris corpus christi, you have to really understand the real motives of biden. and his son hunter, the sorrows crowds the carries, the clintons, there's more going on here than just the geopolitical needs of 2 great nations

fighting over a 3rd. and that has to be examined thoroughly and far beyond the topic we have here to talk about. i bitin will impotently throw tons of money at the belt way, corridor here in washington at the arms makers in an effort to try and have some of a trickle into ukraine. it won't work that, but that's all he can do. well, am i maxime real quick here? i mean, the expectation, are you saying this is the split could be jet? could be generational 10 seconds, my friend, sorry for so little time. 10 seconds. i think it might be, i think it might mean that they, it made me also have to be with generations to certain dishes or if you're in moscow and in washington dc. all right, doug. okay, well that was a great way to and out the 1st part of the program here, gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on russia's relations with the west. same with

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well she's been used cartridge and like if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple don't put your human symbols on display a little stacy schneider. all right, so you guys don't talk to strangers. i. 7 avoid noisy gatherings and rallies, a marashi, even your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll, russian a allowed to with being a specific social

with a welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing russia's relations with the west with . okay, go back to max here in moscow. a few days ago in saint petersburg, i bought a mere putin gave a speech to an international crowd. it was quite striking. i mean, for most of us, they bow listen to it and read it later. it's very can to the 2007 speech made in munich at the security. com fab there. what did you take a big problem? it because it was quite strident and it was basically saying, we don't, we, you're not, the west is not interested in relationship with us. so we're not interested in having a relationship with the west. no more. this cancel culture. we don't care anymore.

and, and we got a foreign minister law abroad. i think it was to the b, b, c. he saying, you know, the question from the question or was, you know, in western eyes and he said, i don't care about your eyes. i mean, and law didn't usually speak that way. ok. i mean that's why i'm calling it irreversible slate. i mean, they're basically saying we're, we're not, we're done talking. we're going to move forward in the direction that we feel is best for our sovereignty. do you think that's a fairs summation of putting speech macs will to me the speech was a kind of progress speech and the way it's or b as they say now? so everyone find anything for themselves, or those are that some thought resemble a national development and certain support programs and the new reality. there were parts where he was talking about a partnerships for russia outside the west. but most of all,

i think it was about vision for the future of russia and international because you were talking he speech, you know, you mentioned it or a 2007. that speech in my ear on 1990 russia with the between russia in the shower and that you know, to some reasonable the crisis of all the problems and it was threatening in any way . it was more of a p a t shortly. she said, ok, you want, you know, follow. we'll let you follow this for, you know, the warning is the lead to current to reach the smash by what you guys told, you know, the populace will be not on the list, but you know, people will, ron. so see from the we're disgruntled with your policy that it's up to you,

we're going to go with our own decision marsh also to lead was a program us each. we'll see how it gets implemented into practice michael in, in washington. i'm in a way we can turn our attention to what's going on in ukraine. there is no way in the world. ukraine can win the conflict, a military conflict with russia that says the, the, the facts. okay. irrespective of the drumbeat of propaganda that is constantly being spewed out, ah, but what is the biden administration going to do? i mean, how do you explain defeat? because that's what it's going to be. and then we have the european union talking about, you know, potential candidacy for ukraine. what ukraine are they talking about? ok, i mean, it is that it all of this white noise here, and it's a, it's a avoiding realities on the ground. war is always awful. i'm not happy that there is a war and don't get me wrong here. okay, but there's the, it will come to an end. how is the west going to react to that,

particularly the united states, particularly the biden administration. go ahead, mike. when was it? yeah, i think with the, by the ministration ukraine is just a car gets just an a means to an end to an ultimate goal of trying to contain, as i said, a russia and an anti obtain regime changed. it just happened to be ukraine this time. and, and the problem is, is that ukraine war is becoming much greater. and the united states, particularly by the ministration, has no policy. it doesn't know what it wants to do. it's re, it's been reactive, and there is no end game to this. and this is the problem that we're seeing. now we're seeing on the, in the, behind the scenes a little bit of trying to get zalinski, the president of ukraine to looks to try to try to come to terms. and because you're not going to win, you're not going to take back crimea, you're not gonna take back south. so he but he's, he's been relentless and he thinks that, that these arms and what have you are going to be a be coming in for, for, for,

for good. and it's just not going to happen. the united states doesn't have all that material. and, and in fact it's, it's own supplies are dwindling, and we're having to back fill the european suit reluctantly, or supply and good to, to ukraine. so nobody has a plan. it's just all being reactive. and i think at some point here in the very near future, they're gonna have to come to reality and figure out just where, where we're going to be going with this policy because russia is gaining and it's going to be gaining more and more in the east that now that the war has shifted that direction. and i think basically, moscow can are in effect declare victory because it has achieved what it ultimately wants to do. that is to create the, the land bridge between dunbar region and crimea, and also to neutralize ukraine from becoming a member of nato. and i think that this is what colton wants to do. he wants to set

up a buffer in the, in the west. so he can look more eastward and i think he has basically told the west that the, that, that they'll maintain relations madonna minimal basis. but it's not going to be the robust looking westward that they used to have. it's going to be much more eastward . and that's the direction things are going, that's just the reality of it. and ukraine is just a means to an end, michael and corpus christi, how to react to what we just heard from michael in washington. michael is a astute and ob servants is always but a you have to understand the russian psyche just a little bit and i don't pretend with you is particularly with you. peter's lived in russia for decades and maxine on friend of this. yeah, i that center and our friend at the strategic institute i, i'm not going to challenge you with that, but you don't have to read a lot about martial suv or of, or others to understand the russian art of war. which is you, people think, well the art of war is the same, the year world over it is not the art of war. in the united states,

you 10 percent casualties in a unit, i spend some time in the military, 10 percent casualties in combat. the large maneuver unit makes it combat and effective. it must, it must be withdrawn. it can't function not. so it's a russian military. there's a greater acceptance of, of blood. i'm sorry to put it that way, but it's true. and the art of war is more about the soldier than about the technology. you know, they don't need our toys, they can quite care why, capably handle this matter. and they are quite capably handling it in the slow plotting hub to hub rolling. ready artillery way that any reasonable military person could have expected and predicted. unfortunately, we have a pentagon filled with woke. i and i would not have said this until recently, but incompetent generals, i mean for whatever they're me politics, we always believe they were competent. i don't believe that's true anymore. i think we have really, it's over there. and if they can support the regime with

a with lies about how well ukraine is doing. well, joe biden is walking a gang plank to a place where he's got to announce we didn't win. and what is that going to look? and that is, and that is in the wake of kabul, also. ok. yes, it is, mike, michael, you know, i got not only are they incompetent the, i know why they're incompetent because they're just angling for the, the pay out when they finished being working to pentagon, they're looking for a board at boeing and etc. that's all that, that's the game plan that you know, tony blair invented it for everybody. ok. bubbling services, just taking the box. maxine, let me go to you here in moscow. this conflict and ukraine will come to an end. i to, i absolutely believe it will be on russia's terms and rushes timetable, but russia will be for a very long time, may be a generation at war. and in one sense of the word or another with nato agree or disagree. i totally agree with you. i more so i think we are with united

states in particular, this very moment because what happened, i think it happened. we're gradually in tacitly, in my conversation with some of my colleagues, i was just a little appreciation of that of united states is basically what says, this is true, this red line are not contributing to direct killing of the russian soldiers f e pretty no by providing a dat intelligence to the premium military that contributes to the killing of the russian hill to personnel. you know, worships, and other material and personnel is actually a violation of lease on smoking. a, you know, in place is doing some hot conflicts in the cold war in korea,

and i've kind of what it was never the case actually end of the cold war. now we're going back to this, we're stratasys of the cold war. and there is one thing that i think everyone has to bear in mind that there is no such tedious proxy or they're never singular. it will be plural, you know, forever. a general that might be a retail issue and not necessarily directly tell ish, you know, to be clear. i'm not advocating for that. i'm just, you know, raising this is the serious concern that is on the path for how these confrontation made it look like. you know, hiring come from dish a force, michael in washington. how, how is the nato acquitted itself so far in this conflict? ok, because i always have to bring it up. on december 17th, the russians communicated to nato entity, united states, what could possibly happen if they didn't listen. they are secure and he needs it

to security is indivisible. how does that nato, how has it acquitted itself so far? real quick, one minute to you. well, i don't think it's done very well, and i think that you're not going to see a war between nato and, and russia in the long term. you may see skirmishes, you may see disputes, but europe cannot afford to go to war with russia. they have seen how war chic, how russia conducts its warfare. it's, it's just, just total total obliteration. and the europe will not put him up, put up with that as it is. it's going to take him years to recover just from what they been going through. and i think that we're going to be seeing russia and, and nato, even though it's going to be rocky. i think they will not go to war ultimately, but we'll have disputes. ok. michael encrypt corpus because we have 25 seconds here . do you see article 5 being invoke this year by nato? no, no, i don't. i think i think we'll sit on lithuania. we'll sit on a, a poland and we'll make sure that nothing much comes of that the the sable rattling

going on there. they may think they're pressure, but they're not. they're defending a bad bad, bad policy that caused russia to behave in a bad way and deserve friend from the street. again, students actually correct. maxine, we have to take a step back countries go on forever and we will get back together again. but we've been harmed by the behavior of nato and the reaction by russia right now. and we've got to take a step back from that and will it take, i hope we will take a step back. everyone here has all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in washington corpus christi and moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching a, c, a r t c. and next on remember of cross knuckles. ah long. oh, seem wrong. oh,

just don't hold any rules yet to figure out. this thing becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves, well, the more we choose to look for common ground. holden is the aggressor today. i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing up in your search of probably list of course. sure. as we speak on the bill in your senior most in mine or will ship, we're branding, all imports of russian oil and gas, new g i. g with info, literature we're given regarding joe biden,

imposing the sanctions on russia. hill has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang there's, there's only one with true lanka has become the from the southeast asian country in 2022, unable to pay its foreign debt. this total is $51000000000.00 un doing the wall reading phase, such a economic challenge with the sanctions imposed by western countries against russia. a booth is island nation to its needs. oil prices have skyrocketed as have petrol medicine and food for the laser price has gone up to one percent. and my family example is asking to pull

social, connect them to the door. what are some of that with that that one? thousands of people took to the streets and this is just the beginning of a similar scenario. could unfold in bangladesh, nip oh, buckets done. and other asian countries in africa. media americans, little sleeve in district young studies, some sort of idea which was play in your books for your own ah, with a, [000:00:00;00]

with that you for that i need to establish something like this, a command center. any place is good enough, even the cemetery, the visit heavily fortified positions abandoned by the ukrainian all me. neither one of us, naya gods russian and allied forces, continue de mining territories taken from kids forces. energy rationing may soon be a reality for millions. that's the warning from islands you, commissioner, amid the blocks growing, get into crisis. a betrayal from joe biden communists, the international slums,