policy analysts in corpus chris, we have michael flannigan, he is president of planning and consulting in a former congressman and here in moscow we have maxine swartzkoff. he is the director of the institute of international studies at moscow state institute of international relations. high gentleman cross south rules and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciate it. right michael? im in washington d. c. let me go 1st. i want to ask all 3 of you the same question. do we have any reversible split with in russia, west relations? go ahead. michael in washington, yet? yeah, period. i think we do. i and i think it is something that the united states brought on itself in the west for that matter. but at the urging and pushing of the united states took the by the minute administration and the mc neoconservatives who are in it like victoria newland. this is an effort and a purposeful effort by them to contain and ultimately have regime change in russia . and i think that this was the catalyst for a mr. potent to say ok, enough's enough because the united states just pushed moscow to its own limits

and, and, and in so doing push the, the european countries to, to follow suit reluctantly. they, they did an already were stand splits there, but this is, this is something where moscow now is looking to creation of a new multi polar world order, as i see it along with russia along with china rather. and iran, turkey, and all the other members of the shanghai cooperation organization and the bricks countries. so i see that this is a, an irreversible trend. and nice and i don't think it's a bad thing. i think it's going to get them out from under the, the western kind of financial system dependency. and also create a, an entirely different economic order that is going to be more constructive than destructive that we've seen on the part of the united states over the past. 20 years. okay, mike of lighting in the same question to you

a reversible split and michael my loops opinion, this is a basically a good thing. i tend to agree with him. your thoughts, my friend? well, i'm, i'm furious. peter. he the come to me before michael maloof because we agree on most things, but i need to say at 1st of the, the michael is correct and most things. but i, i disagree slightly in, in the ultimate impact. we need to have a multi. ready polar world, i think that that is an absolutely good thing. when you have a bipolar world, i mean that in the, in the, in definitional sense not, and it's pharmaceutical sense. you have every one is either for you or against you and you can't view the world in that way. there has to be room for neutrality or indifference to dealing with its own problems. and so, i believe we baited russia over the years, but, but then russia's reaction, i think, is also extreme, perhaps not to the russian point of view, but suits most other peoples. and but it's predictable. and that's the problem. we

need to move away from a bipolar. ready ready world to a multi polar world and, and you'll find, even in the writings of president eisenhower, not generalized narrative. president eisenhower was very skeptical of remaining in nato and thought it would be very good idea if we ended the organization once it's so it's real purpose of, of being able to fight back naziism was over a resurgence of that to them. so it's due to continue to view the world of you love me or you hate me is crazy. we have to be able. ready to allow it to do it, behave in its own, independent, in its own best interests, provided it doesn't leave its borders. and i think, you know, the real pain in the world, the real pain that's coming is from china and to drive russia away from its european friends. its, its ancient european capacity to its eastern capacity is unhelpful. it's stupid, it's insane. but it's, you know, it's joe biden. the man is a walking disaster, foreign policy wise and always. and then this is not

a surprise. so i pray that we get through this. well. yeah. and that we can work together again. yeah, it's surprised, but it's been very predictable at the same time. and i, i think this is a bipartisan thing. i mean, yeah, i agree with criticism about biting. sure. but i mean, it's bipartisan. okay, make sure you're correct, maxime. i'm you know the same question to you and i wanna, you know, have a little extra caveat for you and the situation with colleen ingram. i mean, again, i mean just a, a increasing the escalation of tension right here. i mean, russia had agreements with lithuania, with the european union about try transport of cargo and people, and now that is being the, any is being up there. i mean, this is why i am calling the program irreversible split. i mean, this is intentional, increasing a pensions here. go ahead max. a few things i want to mention. a monopoly is for the hedging on hormone alkalis in 1st place

for them in the short run with federal law. i think a united states for the 1st decade. ultimately we can learn how to strengthen them or so what we're seeing, how i read college in the sense that we do need it a little more all centric world. if we, if we have now, ultimately the, the current worst that we're seeing is going to weaken both the west. and there's not necessarily thing for either actor in this sense so that they will be weaker in fiji, other challenges, not just from you know, what non western powers, but also you know, our trans national challenges, no corporation between a russian lesson in that sense. i think it's, it's, it's, it's a loss for bo, i think whether the slit is your reversible. it looks like it's going to be long

term. honestly, i is, will change because we're kootenai, so basically weren't the west, a guess is that the current solutions are conducting policies that will ultimately bring to power to people who smash and that may entail in some change in the western attitude, when i think may be good for russia, he said over the past few years, it was a certain gap in between the leadership in technology and transfer in their balances. and so for russia in tangled from logical asters, in my best buy that he's handled from the value system he's, i think i'm michael in, in washington to me. i, you've already kind of alluded to it here. i mean, when we look at these, these are sanctions and all that, i mean,

and they still haven't fully impacted rush. i want my audience to understand that. i mean, it's not a bed of roses here and, and there's a lot of predictions on 3rd and 4th quarter things will deteriorate on the, in with the russian economy. however, having said that, i mean the impact is very real and very painful on western polities, on, on, on western sit consumers here. i mean, it's, it's almost to the point of just irrational. you want to cut off russia from everything that has to do with the west, but you're it self inflicted wounds. it's really extraordinary to witness michael in washington. yeah, i think it's backfired on the united states. as i said earlier, i think that this is something that clearly moscow and it has as basically very more you're asian and in the ration direction and this and it has picked up other friends. i don't think it's isolating itself. i think it's korean and that this brand new opportunity in addition to a world order that it,

that is gonna occur. and actually the, the rubel has strengthened as a result of the sanctions and hasn't weakened. and we're seeing that, that there are some difficulties within the russian economy. sure. but your, your, your, your gas prices and everything else are relatively stable. and, and the in you're seeing that, that the economy in the, in the west, however, has suffered durmit tremendously. and i think it's back fired and, and you're going to see the european countries already, which are fracturing in terms of their unit unity beginning to look more east where they are exporting countries and the ride up in the, at their, in the neighborhood, in effect. and they're going to look more closely to russia and to the east look that the one of the 1st benchmarks of this trend took transfer to a, a multi polar world order, which has many definitions. by the way, is something that began in may of 2018 when, when the trump dropped out of the j. c. p. away i happened to be in iran the week

that that happened. and you could just sense that something tremendous as it had happened, that there's going to be a major shift as a consequence of between east and west. and it actually has occurred, and it's built upon that. and it has improved upon that. so you have the s, c o, you have the, the bricks, as i said, you have the eurasia economic cooperation, union, economic cooperation, a group coming together. and all of these are going to form a and approach it in the world that's gonna be much greater in terms of population . and in terms of thrust than we see in the west. and you're gonna see western countries beginning to peel off and look to them because they, as exporting countries, they need those markets in the east, and they're going to be looking that in that direction. it michael, in corpus christi, i'm a, well, what i fully expect is a doubling down of everything. so the sanctions didn't work. so what else is going down? mm. i mean, there's, there's, you know, there's

a discursive problem here in the, you know, russia must not win, that's the mantra in the west. but it should have been, we need peace and peace for every one. and they continue to say, no, russia can't win were and that's almost putting ukraine as a footnote to all of this one minute before we go to the break. here michael and chris corpus christi, you have to really understand the real motives of biden. and his son hunter, the sorrows crowds the carries, the clintons, there's more going on here than just the geopolitical needs of 2 great nations fighting over a 3rd. and that has to be examined thoroughly and far beyond the topic we have here to talk about. i bitin will impotently throw tons of money at the belt way, corridor here in washington at the arms makers in an effort to try and have some of a trickle into ukraine. it won't work that, but that's all he can do. well, am i maxime real quick here?

i mean, the expectation, are you saying this is the split could be jet? could be generational 10 seconds, my friend. sorry for so little time. 10 seconds. i think it might be, i think it might be that they, it made me also have to be with generations to certain dishes or if you're in moscow and in washington dc. all right, doug. okay, well that was a great way to and out the 1st part of the program here, gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on russia's relations with the west. same with ah ah ah ah

ah needs to come to the russian state. little never the i've. i'm phoning most landscape davis with within 50 babbled. it's been okay. so my niece madeline speaking with we will van in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia to date, and ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

talking just like of literally a muscle around noon. she doesn't being in the green shield on a nice to me as possible. mama cook goose creek to somebody to look at that. i put his ashley of dc one. it was a duplicate pieces. goes bouncing from one to move please. this is sort of cool. jason, did you bring out an up of the key for the cheenam trying to network with them with. welcome back. across stock were all things are considered on peter lavelle to

remind you were discussing russia's relations with the west. with . okay, go back to max here in moscow. a few days ago in saint petersburg, i bought them here. putin gave a speech to an international crowd. it was quite strident. i mean, for most of us, they bow listened to it and read it later. it's very can to the 2007 speech made in munich at the security confab there. what did you take a peek from it because it was quite strident and it was basically saying, we don't, we, you're not the west is not interested in a relationship with us. so we're not interested in having relationship with the west. no more. this cancel culture. we don't care anymore and i, we got a foreign minister labranz. i think it was to the b, b, c. he saying, you know, the question from the question or was, you know, in western eyes and he said, i don't care about your eyes. i mean,

and love ross didn't usually speak that way. okay. i mean, that's why i'm calling it irreversible split. i mean, they're basically saying we're, we're not, we're done talking. we're going to move forward in the direction that we feel is best for our sovereignty. do you think that's a fairs summation of putin speech macs will to me the speech was a kind of progress in speech and, and we were be it or b as they say. and also everyone to find anything for themselves are there are some thought resemble more like a federal shamela address because a lot of healthy and updated national and what programs. in reality, there were parks or he was talking about a partnerships for russia outside of the west. but most of all, i think it was about vision for the future of russia and the international system because you were talking she speech, you know,

you mentioned in the city or 2007. that speech and my andy or 90 ninety's rushes with the era between russia in the shower and that you know, the solution of all the crisis of all the problems. and it wasn't threatening in any way. it was more of a p a t v. she said, ok, you want, you know, follow a follow this for, you know, the warning is the least occur in the slash biology. i suppose, you know, the parking list will be not on the list, but you know, people will run uncertainty from people who are disgruntled with your policy. that gets up to you. we're going to go with the partnership. so to me it was a program teach. we'll see how it gets implemented into practice michael in, in washington. i'm in a way we can turn our attention to what's going on in ukraine. there is no way in

the world. ukraine can win a conflict, a military conflict with russia. that's just the, the, the facts. ok, irrespective of the drum beat of propaganda that is constantly being spewed out. ok, but what is the biden administration going to do? i mean, how do you explain defeat? because that's what it's going to be. and then we have the european union talking about, you know, potential candidacy for ukraine. what ukraine are they talking about? ok, i mean, it is that it all of this white noise here, and it's a, it's a avoiding realities on the ground. war is always awful. i'm not happy that there is a war a don't get me wrong here. okay. but there's the, it will come to an end. how is the west going to react to that, particularly the united states, particularly the biden administration. go ahead, michael, and was it? yeah, i think with the, by the administration, ukraine is just a call gets just an a means to an end to an ultimate goal of trying to contain,

as i said, russia and an anti obtain regime changed. it just happened to be ukraine this time . and, and, and the problem is, is that the ukraine war is becoming much greater and the united states, particularly the, by the ministration has no policy. it doesn't know what it wants to do. it's re, it's been reactive. and there is no end game to this. and this is the problem that we're seeing now we're seeing on the, in the, behind the scenes a little bit of trying to get zalinski, the president of ukraine to looks to try to try to come to terms. and because you're not going to win, you're not gonna take back crimea, you're not gonna take back south. so he but he's, he's been relentless and he thinks that these arms and what have you are going to be a be coming in for, for, for, for good. and it's just not gonna happen. the united states doesn't have all that material. and, and in fact, it's, its own supplies are dwindling, and we're having to back bill the europeans who reluctantly are supplying good so

to, to ukraine. so nobody has a plan. it's just all being reactive. and i think at some point here in the very near future, they're gonna have to come to reality and figure out just where, where we're going to be going with this policy because russia is gaining and it's gonna be gaining more and more in the east that now that the war has shifted that direction, and i think basically moscow can a, in effect declare victory because it has achieved what it ultimately wants to do. that is to create the, the land bridge between dunbar ridge and premier, and also to neutralize ukraine from becoming a member of nato. and i think that this is what colton wants to do. he wants to set up a buffer in the, in the west. so he can look more eastward, and i think he has basically told the west that the, that, that they maintain relations but on a minimal basis. but it's not going to be the robust looking westward that they

used to have. it's going to be much more eastward and that's the direction things are going. that's just the reality of it. and ukraine is just a means to an end, michael and corpus christi, how to react to what we just heard from mike when washington. michael is a astute and ob servants is always but a you have to understand the russian psyche just a little bit and i don't pretend with you is particularly with you. peter's lived in russia for decades and maxine on friend of this. yeah, i that center and our friend at the strategic institute i, i'm not going to challenge you with that, but you don't have to read a lot about marshall, super over others to understand the russian art of war. which is you, people think, well the art of war is the same, the year world over it is not the art of war. in the united states, you 10 percent casualties in the unit, i spend some time in the military, 10 percent casualties in a combat. the large maneuver unit makes it combat and effective. it must,

it must be withdrawn. it can't function not. so it's a russian military. there's a greater acceptance of, of blood. i'm sorry to put it that way, but it's true. and the art of war is more about the soldier than about the technology. you know, they don't need our toys, they can quite care why, capably handle this matter. and they are quite capably handling it in the slow, plodding hub to hub rolling. ready artillery way that any reasonable military person could have expected and predicted. unfortunately, we have a pentagon filled with woke. i and i would not have said this until recently, but incompetent generals, i mean for whatever their politics, we always believe they were competent. i don't believe that's true anymore. i thought we have real idiots over there. and if they can support the regime with a with lies about how well ukraine is doing. well, joe biden is walking a gang plank to a place where he's got to announce we didn't win. and what is that going to look?

and that is, and that is in the wake of kabul also. okay. yes, it is, mike, michael, you know, i got not only are they incompetent the, i know why they're incompetent because they're just angling for the, the pay out when they finished being working at the pentagon, they're looking for a board at boeing and etc. that's all that, that's the game plan that you know, tony blair invented for everybody. ok. public services just taking the box. maxine, let me go to you here in moscow. this conflict in ukraine will come to an end. i to, i absolutely believe it'll be on russia's terms and rushes timetable, but russia will be for a very long time, maybe a generation at war and in one sense of the word or another with nato. agree or disagree. i totally agree with, you know, more so i think we are with united states in particular this very moment because what happened, i think would happen where gradually in tacitly, in my conversations with some of my colleagues i was just and there was

little appreciation of that of united states basically was this is to this ready, why not contributing to direct killing of the russian soldiers f e credit or by providing a dat intelligence to the ukrainian military that contributes to the killing of the russian hill to personnel or, you know, worships and other material and personnel is actually a violation of these unspoken rule only, you know, in place is doing some conflicts in the coal or, you know, on korea did not. but it was never the case actually end of the cold war. now we're going back to this, we're stratasys of the cold war and was one thing that i think everyone has to bear in mind that there is no such tedious proxy or they're never singular. it will be

plural, you know, forever. a general that might be a retail issue and not necessarily directly tell each no to be clear. i'm not advocating for that. i'm just, you know, raising this is a serious concern that is on the path for how this confrontation made it look like . you know, spiraling come from dish a force, michael in washington. how, how is the nato acquitted itself so far in this conflict? ok, because i always have to bring it up. on december 17th, the russians communicated to nato and to the united states, what could possibly happen if they didn't listen, their security needs. it to security is indivisible. how does that nato, how has it acquitted itself so far? real quick, one minute to you. well, i don't think it's done very well and i think that you're not going to see a war between nato and russia. in the long term. you may see skirmishes,

you may see disputes, but europe cannot afford to go to war with russia. they have seen how war chic, how russia conducts its warfare. it's, it's just just total total obliteration, and the europe will not put, cannot put up with that as it is going to take him years to recover just from what they've been going through. and i think that we're going to be seeing russia and, and nato, even though it's going to be rocky. i think they will not go to war ultimately, but we'll have disputes. ok, michael and crook corpuscles we have 25 seconds here. you see article 5 being invoked this year by nato. no, no, i don't. i think i think we'll sit on lithuania. we'll sit on a, a poland and we'll make sure that nothing much comes of that the, the sable rattling going on there. they may think they're precious, but they're not. they're defending a bad bad, bad policy that caused russia to behave in a bad way. and this our friend from the street again,

students actually correct. maxine, we have to take a step back countries go on forever and we will get back together again. but we've been harmed by the behavior of nato and the reaction by russia right now, and we've got to take a step back from that am, well, let's take, i hope we will take a step back. everyone here has all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in washington corpus kristie and moscow, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our t. c. next, on, remember, cross ah, only one main thing is important or not to some internationally speaking, that is that nations, but that's allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, and then you have the minor nation. so all the slaves americans, proc obama and others have had

a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exist as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this. danger is boy man, that wants to take over the world. that was a culture strategy and walked out of it on your own. i not leashed off to exhibit in tablet block. nato said it's ours. we moved east. the reason us, hey jim, it is so dangerous is it deny the sovereignty of all the countries, the exceptionalism that america uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nato, what is bad shareholders in united states and elsewhere in lodge obs companies would lose millions and millions or is business and business is good and that is the reality of what we're facing,

which is fashion. and when i was showing wrong, i just don't know if we have to figure out the thing because the advocate and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves, well, the part we choose to look for common ground. i think i'm going to with this with you, i guess with you i'm with

full credit is going to be out of wood from beach still easy to the station about in the board with

ah hm. sri lanka has become the 1st southeast asian country in 2022, unable to pay its foreign debt. this total is $51000000000.00 you went viewing the vol, reading face such a economic challenge. the sanctions imposed by western countries against russia have brought this island nation to its knees. oil prices have skyrocketed as have petrol medicine and food would be laser. bryce has gone up to one percent. thousands of people took 2.