ah, hello, and welcome to wells far as one of the leaders of the indian national movement. famously sad freedom is not given. it's taken, including the freedom to charge your own course as a people or as a nation. but in the world that's increasingly and deliberately segregated across political economic cultural lines was the price of such freedom. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoying by ross again my fresh, cheap, cheap director of the institute for economic research and innovation at twana university of technology in south africa. professor is great to welcome you here in russian. thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to you. thanks very much . i'm not sure that you to be here. now, i know that you were born in 1969 in the still a par faith rule, south africa. and i heard you saying that in another interview that you almost feel historically lucky, you have been born to have been brought into this world on the cost of an outgoing

era that the dawn over a new one year. observing the latest developments in the world today, i wonder if you have the same feeling. well, we, we are seeing cycles in history repeating themselves. and a big concern is, are we as a species to learning from what we are experiencing? it's so important, intergenerational is encouraged because those lessons in fact hold oh, future and do you think we're learning? i'm concerned. i am extremely concerned about it. but seriously, when people are talking and trying to make sense of what's happening around the world, some of them jump to fold into a sort of apocalyptic plan. others tend to be overly optimistic. i wonder where you place yourself on what would be, let's say, the one thing that worries you the most. yeah. and that excites you the most about the current events. well, i think when for us to have more realistic material optimist,

we really have to explore the depths of the business that we really have to be absolutely convinced that we don't want to return to a pass that was barbaric. and if we agree to the future holds many possibilities. so my optimism is based on my business. i know that you, for quite some time have been very critical of the economic system and in the world of the neo liberal system, which some could argue is also a system of privilege. pretty much like apartheid. yes. to fighting which you gave many, many years of your life. and many of the people who have a stake in that system today aren't in that it needs to be reform. do you trust the intention to reform with them in a more balanced, fair way, or do you think they will try to sort of shape the process in a way that keeps serving them? so i think what history is also told us is hit germany tends to reproduce it and the ruling ideas because of that have a tendency of placing themselves upon people. they bind people's rationality and

then lock people into choices. so if you don't mind, i would encourage rather than reforming the other, we need to transform. we need to actually embrace the fact that our challenges are bigger than what we've learned from the past and for the future that allows us to survive on the planet. we need in your system, all the evidence shows and it's most acutely brought home that effect, seen the partic. so what we thought we defeated the tape in 1994 to have seen what happened in the last 2 years. an entire continent was excluded from producing the vaccine on the basis that they did not hold intellectual property rights. now, in addition to call that they also now have the war in your crane, which at least here in russia as, as a much broader conflict than just the chair. it's very way taking place. and both of these calamities in a way, in changing the because they covered some damage already rearranged the way global

system economic system was functioning. where in the ukraine and the economic sanctions and counter sanctions delivering even bigger shots to that systems. do you, how do you think the world will be able to absorb it and what kind of a worldview we have after after it? so i think it's very important as you raise those 2 issues are big issues for us. but we have to understand that the, the 3rd issue that's even bigger than those 2, which is the crisis of the climate and the ecology that we are inside the resilience that we only need to be able to sustain ourselves from the demands and equitable sharing off especially knowledge resources and the tools to cope with what's happening outside. currently, if we accept the way in which the world is ordered, that is not something that's going to be deliver. it has to be, as you said initially taken, it has to be something deliberately acted upon so that people both such resilience

and resolve crisis. most of what we experience today are the results of centuries of conflicts. but these contradictions come from a thing in the system, and it's incredible to believe at this point, the 21st century, that people are willing to see us into a catastrophe, rather than change the system that's driving some tough catastrophes. i mean, look at what, what is happening right now. sometimes catastrophe is for the change on the system itself because i don't know if you visited was for the last couple of years. but they, they've been talking about the need to, you know, for more ethical. you know, balance distribution of well for, you know, dickins on them, but it's, it's only now that the, the system seems to be changing by itself because people never had enough results to do understand as you raise the 2 in terms of the tools that we have available to us. so if we all only had hammers, every solution has to be a male. i think as a takes 8 well people. we have the opportunity to think of alternative ideas to

resolve challenges and the barbarism that we see around the world in predicate a lot of it to rich in aging, in tampa itself, cannot be allowed to continue in there. as you said, broken promises once, twice. but now after decades, what we see is real lives that are last, look at the excess mortality out of cold look at the people's lives being ross in russia and elsewhere in africa. this continues on a daily basis. i really think we should have matured as a species to transcend those tools. we have more than having this available to us. you mentioned suspicious, and i remember in one of your interviews, i think it was a couple of years ago in the midst of the convent condemning has said that we are suspicious, where threats are not on the national level, but a global level. but nowadays, everybody seems to have forgotten about not everybody, but many people seems to have forgotten about that thread. there is

a thread over of a war in it's rain right now. how dangerous it is in. do you think they're still under threat as a species? because in that conflict, it's not only about the virus, but it's also about nuclear weapons. absolutely. collectively, we on the threats and the threats escalate to a big part of it is the way in which also information and knowledge is being restricted and constraints. the imposition of certain restrictions on the flow of information really needs to be counted. it cannot be that the single narrative determines what's happening in the well, it's a connect of interest at social enterprise. the more exchange of ideas, the better for all of us. and we really need to encourage that type of dialogue to be increased let's it less engage in that dialogue. and if i may, i would ask before you go on reserved opinion, because you are here in russia, but they were in the ukraine. and this is what i want to ask you about is a very difficult issue for the because on the one hand,

it's the use of violence. it's enormous. lost all resources and human lives, both on both sides. but on the other hand, i know that many people here see that as an alt logical struggle in trouble for you being who you are and being true to your own path for the right to develop according to, to your own and descending on. who you are as a nation. now, i don't want to impose that. i knew i would like to have your opinion as somebody was it could be removed from the western perspective. there was some perspective but can also be critical and objective to when it comes to russia. and so i think if we ask this question a century ago, which is just a few years ago, it would have been fine using the tools that we had them silence being expressed for self determination struggles for national liberation, etc. but where we are today, we are enjoins and a much tighter in try dependence,

not to interdependencies. it's so finally in teams. personally, we have friends, we have family, we have people we work with in both actually retreat. i have relatives in the ukraine that's actually every night and we have to ask ourselves in our families when we have conflicts. do we have to resolve it violently? we are in, we should be able to transcend that. but then the powers that be in terms of well systems and not in favor of peaceful res solution. and that's so important that we continue to raise opportunities for peace. have been broached. in fact, people have gotten closer to achieving, but that doesn't serve the interests of those that are profiting from what's happening and what needs to happen for all besides. and we, here we have here at least 3 sides, russia, ukraine, the larger west to happen for all of them to have the motivation to have a realization that finding some sort of a peaceful solution of what them better than having disconnect. well,

if you don't mind, if i use the link with the party that you mentioned earlier, so for, for century south africa existed. we have people with black skins. what considered some of it was beneath express legally. and because of that position, hierarchical was determined in that way. today we would see what a ridiculous idea you scratch me. i believe the same to that's extent. that's so much in that way of understanding. we need to push back against those interests that see profits over our lives itself, reconciling ourselves as possible, but needs to be people to people. and we cannot achieve that unless we confront you called it the with. i would suggest being more specific in targeting, which is we are talking about. they are very particular transnational interest. most of them is ported in countries, north america,

europe. and those are the ones that are fostering the conflicts that are taking place. you mentioned that per se, then i think this sort of distinction exists even, even among the so called white people. because within the larger western communities, i know that we, the russians, or europeans in general have long been treated as some sort of barbarians. who, you know, not knowledgeable enough to absorb all the closely civilized western values. and in your writing, you, you argue a lot for sort of integrating localized indigenous knowledge into all sorts of political, economic, cultural thinking, understanding tradition, not putting it on the pedestal, but are trying to integrated within ideological thinking within the innovation. what is in the way of doing that because it seems so logical, you know, you don't have to be me, i don't have to be you. and yet there seems to be a is so precious. you can fly and everybody to some sort of ideal that

doesn't work. absolutely. so i think as you pray with in that way, the defense of the indefensible because that's exactly what we are confronted, needs to be confronted with the evidence itself. so when we saw initially conflict take place, there was a huge opening up in europe. refugees, welcome signs hilda. at the same time as that's happening and trains are being welcomed and people are dying in the mediterranean, trying to cross over from africa. black students that were in these areas where she was exit. how is it possible that we continue on the space that it's not everyone that was taught to be ukrainian was welcomed in europe. professor, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station. ah ah

ah ah, ah ah ah .

the me a welcome back was a far as with arrest again, national rodge team, director of the institute for economic research on innovation is one, a university of technology in south africa professor my heart before the break, we were talking about town fair. this world is, and one of the features of the current crisis is the fact that it's not only russia and ukraine and the ones that are suffering. but many of the 3rd countries that have nothing to do with this part of the world in the global south. and that's primarily because of the use of unilateral use of extra territorial sanctions. and if you look at it from an economic or survival perspective, rush is large, those involved in the conflict itself, the consequences, the nfl,

to collateral damage. but even for the collateral damage, we need to respond, which is the cause of this, what is driving these things forward. and in that context, if we have everyone belonging to a singular multilateral body, an international court for justice as an example, in the sanctions that flow fund that should be based on the will of 8000000 people, not the waving flags at each other. so to that extent, if we one fear outcomes and in economic system of sanctions against ever and behavior, it has to apply to everyone. they cannot be singular that certain countries have the opportunity to utilize. and others are just the victims of the point about africa and the consequences of the conflicts taking place as well. this is for those centuries of marginalization and to that extent, africa itself needs to pick itself up. to that extent, africa has to develop the type of resilience that you say russia has currently

unlocked more that africa itself must go into to redress some of its and not to be as dependent as it remains to be in will system. but you know, there are a couple of examples in africa, lee being being one of them and i'm not trying to define, they get off their regime, but i wasn't that country for many years prior to that conflict and it was relatively well off. certainly they were fair criticism, how it was managed, but it was one of the richest then i would say, most generous countries on the continent and look, it's all reduced to a big slave margin. do you think your content, which has been a source of material? well, for a significant part of this was, do you think it would be allowed to charge this force him to stand on his own fees to this, you know, as the racism that it's so important for us to realize what is the norm. that's b, as fi it towards, africa continues to believe it is catching up with a west and mold a variety of capitalism. as a courtesy of teens,

it has no hope because those ahead constantly put in place obstacles towards achieving that state of africa really needs to reconcile itself to it's people. 1.3, bowie and people live in such conditions that you mention. and we cannot afford more international intervention in africa. it must be, as africans, it's libya was a key swan. so the african union, besides south africa, contributing financially tool. and that's why in terms of now, you need to be really concerned that the agenda of the african union becomes driven by donors and not by the subscribing members who are african themselves. now let me broaden our discussion a little bit here because we are recording this conversation on this island. so they st. petersburg, economic form. and it's become a tradition here. you have some sort of a panel on the bricks countries, rozelle, russia, india, china, and south africa. some observing members,

and it's true that they have enormous human and economic potential, but compared to the consolidation and integration of the west that i think that synergies remain in a somewhat latent form to put it diplomatically. what do you think prevents all those countries who have a lot to contribute to the international system from, you know, using the organization better or more efficiently? so i think as we understand bricks, it's important for us to look beyond. just as we have talking up nearly 2 thirds of human being contained inside such a combination. and we need to ask ourselves that relationship between that number of people and the states that represent the point i want to make is cleared the internal contradictions within each of the 5 countries as they exist. some countries have managed to manage those contradictions better than others. it has

have been an external ssl because of also the actions what is taking place in brazil. what's currently happening in india. i think that should have the concern for all of humanity, but especially the brakes are maybe we aren't paying as much attention to exactly those internal contradictions. the potential exists, but it's people to people that potential and we need to exploit more than just seeing it states in tree and leaving it for talking to site on this. now one of the things that i here here in russia often is that for breaks to become truly meaningful, it needs to develop not just mutual trade, but try to come up with a new socio economic system that would better integrate the best practices of the member states, especially when it comes to sort of limiting the excesses of capitalism and expanding the the public goods failed. do you think that's an talk?

well, utopia has remained utopia until we base them in material realities. and what we have available to us are the conditions that demand such solutions. it's really a question of whether the countries themselves. so if we use, by example, china has been able to recognize some of these challenges and has absorbed into its domestic agenda. so we can learn from china to that extent we have different systems, different cultures to other points of quite critical inputs. and that's the narrative, the formation of the thought on the logical aspect around picks itself. if we link it more to the non aligned movement with respect to the polls and look at the period post, that is even better opportunities that spring from a 3rd aspect is actually deep kaloni ality and d colonization. our colonial mental structures are main preference and we see it on the ground, us to civilization. all states are part of itself. we have so much to learn in

terms of that a customer that has removed it from dominant point. if we return to the we have much better potential rethinking the world, our place and in relation to the future, aspiration was more ecological sustain. i know that you have a great passion for public goods and i wonder how far down the social isn't pap. you're willing to take it because i read somewhere that as a kid you're, we're an avid consumer of marks and learning. do you think those someone discredited thinkers can still offer it anything for the said bill, there's nothing that form that has been tried before, but perhaps in terms of ideas or in terms of values. so i think an enduring value, particularly of linen in this context, was the ability to translate ideas into practice found in the context of time in

which those ideas arose. it was appropriate and we saw a massive move form in terms of the progress of humanity. but the, at a significant cost as well when that was over time and over time systems, if they refuse the dynamic system that allows people participation as soon as that gets encroached upon and restricted the possibilities of remaining creator, dynamic and finding a futures gets constrained. so i think to that extent it would be inappropriate to bring linen from $970.00 and into 20. 22 is the appropriate note is animals live. it's up to us, the ideas that we've drawn from it to bring it into practice. i would not advocate the type of state lab system that existed previously because what we have available to us to be far outstripped what was available. the means of communication integration globally. that allows us to bring about change much more rapidly. so

this, we're not tools that you printed out on a little leaflet and distributed and not support for. so having these opportunities, i think, creative, and especially in the younger generation, those 25 years younger. the possibilities without is a, is so important. and we shouldn't then constrain if we are willing to say, as you say, maybe some of the view in russia that socialism is a failure at the many that hold the view that capitalism is a failure. i know from my personal experience in south africa, that there are many people who share bluffton idea. where do you think the, where do you think the country will move now, after having this very hard experience with at least in terms of the public health care. so specifically in south africa has proposed putting in place the national health insurance system. it's a concern for us. it isn't the full solution. what we need is good available tool

and object use and it's part of the reform agenda not transform is how to make the system such into one that allows for private participation. but this process is opening up. and as we start implementing the national health insurance, which is already policy, we will start seeing the elements of the national health system emerge from it. and the national health system ultimately is about health, not about mit. and that's also quite critic important. it's a different way of thinking. we remove the sources of health, putting a human in the center of the system rather than the material in 2 years. and the prophecy arise from another aspect to south africa, less the question of philanthropy, and whether we can expect private donations. and this is really what's troubled all of africa with vaccines as opposed to we can talk about distribution now distribution. but if you don't produce something, what, what do you have to ship?

so to that extent, having productive capabilities remains important. and even in how we need to bring indigenous into and traditional ways of thinking about how about, well, be back into such discussions itself. and i guess that would apply not only for africa or south african in particular, but for the rest of the world because in each individual countries we are dealing with pretty much the same challenges. but we are dealing with them in a different way. and i think these are going to accelerate any because of climate change and the rapid pace of which that's happening. if we as societies have evolved and emerged within particular geographic territories, we have come to understand how best to cope within those territory. that's the knowledge is that have been excluded. and we now norm to, as you said, a north american model of how the bricks have discussed. well, b reports are produced, but none of this because it have

a narrow economic perspective gained currency. so they are discussions such as that, and i was so impressed when i listened to russia's presentation. i didn't think that they had such a well of indigenous knowledge in the northern territories. the eastern territories that i incorporated adults in with me about the valley in your own experience, bad and good experience and being able to analyze it rather than looking at some distance star and believing that your only goal is to be like someone else. yeah, i think that's the crux of the matter to be like someone else know that a failure. no. each one of us is an individual, but we co exist on the planet with other life forms. and to that extent that's we. indigenous knowledge is so important. over century, over millennia, we as a species have managed to cope with our environment in interaction with others. that's not the norm today. now, well, indigenous and global. ultimately, no, it's a paradox, but it's a paradox that gonna work. well,

we have to leave it there. thank you for these very interesting discussion. and so the challenge of christians as well. thank you for watching hope to syria again. well, the part with me ah, with

the well joe middle, alexis just see nothing from nobody but i just part of the language. it's a real name is logical law schools and oscar, which grew up in federal which is it from the get the enemy of the number to the demand. feel okay, that he says i had to put him in the bush and below that season. now she did the way april, really, nazis was. is young at the did it just had to go to another bus deal this wouldn't have happened, natal vida, didn't push this agenda. this was because i'm, yes, she also said, what about a nadia?

it's not a good way to get anyone up at the moment, but it's okay to film to fill in with the general but aah! person let for says take full control of several done yet, including the chemical plant move came up. the ukranian troops were ordered to withdraw from the area all talk and no action, thousands gather immunity, to protest against what they call the g 7, empty promises of economic development. also, posing nato's involvement in the war and ukraine. we are totally against this war, escalating the ukraine. we had a great fear that nato will openly intervene and unfortunately, it is already doing so. and is europe start to tap into it's when to gas reserves. so you politicians see their sanctions, policies having a blowback effect.