the people for as a nation in the world as increasingly and deliberately segregated across political economic cultural lines was the price of such freedom. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoined by ross again my fresh, cheap, cheap director of the institute for economic research and innovation at swanner university of technology in south africa. professor is great to welcome you here in russian. thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to you. thanks very much . i'm not sure that you to be here. now, i know that you were born in 1969 in the still par say it's ruled south africa. i heard the saying that in another interview, that the almost feel historically lucky you have been born to have been brought into this world on the cost of an outgoing era. and that the dawn of a, of a new one here observing do it, is developments in the world today. i wonder if you have the same feeling? well, we, we are seeing cycles in history repeating themselves in a big concern is, are we as a species learning from what we are experiencing?

it's so important intergenerational learning is encouraged because those lessons interact, hold oh, future and do you think we're learning? i'm concerned. i am extremely concerned about it, but seriously, when people are talking and trying to make sense of what's happening around the world, some of them to fold into a sort of apocalyptic plan, others tend to be overly optimistic. i wonder where you place yourself and what would be, let's say, the one thing that's where is he the most and does excites you the most about the current events? well, i think when for us to have a more realistic material optimist, we really have to explore the depths of the business. we really have to be absolutely convinced that we don't want to return to a pass that was barbaric. and if we agree to that, the future holds many possibilities. so my optimism is based on my business. i know that you,

for quite some time have been very critical of the economic system in the world of the meal liberal system, which some could argue is also a system of privilege. pretty much like a par side. yes. to fighting which you gave many, many years of your life. and many of the people who have a stake in that system today aren't in that it needs to be reform. do you trust the intention to reform within them in a more balanced, fair way, or do you think they will try to sort of shape the process in a way that keeps serving them? so i think what history is also told us is hit gemini, tends to reproduce it, and the ruling ideas because of that have a tendency of placing themselves upon people. they bind people's rationality and then lock people into choices. so if you don't mind, i would encourage, rather than reforming the process, we need to transform. we need to actually embrace the fact that our challenges are bigger than what we've learned from the past and for the future that allows us to

survive on the planet. when he did his sister, all the evidence shows us, and it's most acutely brought home by vaccine, the partic, so why we thought we defeated the party in 1994, to have seen what happened in the last 2 years. an entire continent was excluded from producing the vaccine on the basis that they did not hold intellectual property rights. now, in addition to call it, they also now have the war in your crane, which at least here in russia as a much broader conflict than just the charity re way taking place. and both of these calamities in a way and changing the system because they're covered from damage to radio, rearrange the way global system economic system was functioning. we're in the ukraine and they can all make sanctions and counter sanctions and delivering even bigger shops to that systems. do you, how do you wells will be able to absorb with and what kind of

a world will we have after after it? so i think it's very important as your rates, those 2 issues are big issues for us. but we have to understand that in a 30 should that's even bigger than those 2, which is the crisis of the treatment and the ecology that we are inside. the resilience that we all need to be able to sustain ourselves from their demands and equitable sharing off especially knowledge resources and the tools to cope with what's happening outside. currently, if we accept the way in which the world is ordered, that is not something that's going to be delivered. it has to be, as you said initially, take, it has to be something to deliberately acted upon so that people both such resilience and resolve crisis. most of what we experienced today are the result of centuries of conflicts, but these contradictions come from a singular system. and it's incredible to believe at this point, the 21st century that people are willing to see us into a catastrophe,

rather than change the system that's driving. sometimes catastrophe is, i mean i look at what, what is happening right now is sometimes catastrophe is for is the change on the system itself. because i don't know if you visited that was for the last couple of years. but they, they've been talking about the need to, you know, for more ethical, you know, valid distribution of well for, you know, decades on and, but it is only now that the, the system seems to be changing by itself because people never had enough results to did i understand as you raised that in terms of the tools that we have available to us. so if we all only had hammers, every solution has to be a male. i think as a complex 8 lillian people, we have the opportunity to think of alternative ideas to resolve challenges and the barbarism that we see around the world being predicate a lot of it originating and diverse itself cannot be allowed to continue in there for as you said broken promises once twice, but now after decades,

what we see is real life that a last look at the excess mortality out of cold, the people's lives been ross in russia and elsewhere in africa. this continues on a daily basis. i really think we should have mature as a species to transcend those tools or we have more than how much is available to us . you mentioned the fishes and i remember one of your interviews. i think it was a couple of years ago in the midst of the comment condemning who said that me as a species where i'm the bread is not on the national level, but on a global level. but nowadays everybody seems to have forgotten about not everybody, but many people have forgotten about that friend. there is a thread of a war in your brain right now. how dangerous it is in your juicing. we're still under threat as, as a species because in that conflict it's not only about the virus, but it's also about nuclear weapons. absolutely. connect to the we are on the trips

and the threats escalated. a big part of it is the way in which also information and knowledge is being restricted and constraints. the imposition of certain restrictions on the flow of information really needs to be counted. it cannot be that a single narrative determines what's happening in the well, it's a connective in terms of social enterprise, the more exchange of ideas, the better for all of us. and we really need to encourage that type of dialogue to be released. let's, let's engage in that dialogue, and if i may, i would ask for your unreserved opinion, because you are here in russia, but they were in ukraine. and this is what i want to ask you about. it isn't very difficult. the issue for this country, because on the one hand, it's the use of violence, it's a norma's loss or resources human lives, both on both sides. but on the other hand, i know that many people here see that as an ontological struggle in the triangle for you. being who you are and being true to your own,

pass for the right to develop according to your own understanding of who you are as a nation. now i don't want to impose that on you. i would like to have your opinion as somebody who is equal here removed from the western perspective and critical of the western perspective, but can also be critical and objective to when it comes to rushes. and so i think if we ask this question a century ago, which is just a few years ago, it would have been fine using the tools that we had, the violence being expressed for self determination struggles for national liberation, etc. but where we are today, we are enjoined in a much tight in truck dependence, not to interdependency. it's so finally infamous. personally, we have friends, we have family, we have people we work with in both charities. yeah. i have relatives in the ukraine. i and we have to ask ourselves in our families when we have conflicts,

do we have to resolve it violently leaving any should be able to transcend, but then the powers that be in terms of world systems. i'm not in favor of peaceful resolution, and that's so important that we continue to raise that opportunities for peace have been broached. in fact, people have gotten closer to achieving, but that doesn't serve the interests of those that are profiting from what's happening and what needs to happen for old besides. and we here we have here at least 3 sides, russia, ukraine, and the larger west. what needs to happen for all of them to have the motivation to have a realization that finding some sort of a peaceful solution of what's to them better than having this kinetic conflict. but if you don't mind, if i use the link with the party that you had mentioned earlier, so for, for centuries, south africa existed with people with black skins were considered sub q. it was

belief expressed legally. and because of the position hierarchical was determined in that way today we would see what a ridiculous idea you scratch me. i believe the same, to that extent, that's so much. and in that way of understanding, we need to push back against those interests that see profits over our lives itself, reconciling ourselves as possible, but it needs to be people to people. and we cannot achieve that unless we confront you called it the with i would suggest being more specific in targeting, which is we are talking about. they are very particular trans national interest. most of them is ported in countries, north america, europe. and those are the ones that are fostering the conflicts that are taking place. you mentioned that per se, then i think this sort of distinction exists in, even among the so called white people. because within the larger western community, if i know that we,

the russians or eastern europeans in general have long been treated as some sort of their barriers. you know, you know, not knowledgeable enough to absorb all the close of the civilizing western values. and in your writing you, you argue a lot for sort of integrating localized indigenous knowledge into all sorts of political, economic, cultural thinking, understanding tradition, not putting it on the pedestal. but trying to integrated within a geological thinking within the innovation, what is in the way of doing that because it seems so logical, you know, you don't have to be me. i don't have to be here. and again, there seems to be a very strong pressure to confine everybody to some sort of ideal that doesn't work. so i think as your payments in that way, the defense of the indefensible because that's exactly what we are confronted, needs to be confronted with the so when we saw initially conflict take place,

there was a huge opening up in europe. refugees, welcome science held up at the same time as that's happening and trains are being welcomed and people are dying in the mediterranean, trying to cross over from africa. black students that were in these areas where she was exit. how is it possible that we continue on the space that it's not that everyone that was her thought to be ukrainian was welcomed in europe. professor we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments station. mm. mm ah, with

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk lou and with russian state will never be as time goes on in the most lengthy investment, i'm not getting something set up for a group in the $55.00 when okay, so mine is gonna be the one else with we will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machines. the state on russia today and split ortiz sport that even our video agency,

roughly all band on youtube and pinterest with . mm hm. mm. welcome back to was a part with ross again, maharaj cheap director of the institute for economic research on innovation. it's wanting university of technology in south africa, professor maharaja, before the break. we were talking about how unfair this world is. and one of the features of the current crisis is the fact that it's not only russia and

ukraine and the ones that are suffering. but many of the 3rd countries that have nothing to do with this part of the world in the global south. and that's primarily because of the use of unilateral use of extra territorial sanctions. and if you look at it from an economic or survival perspective, rush is a large country, it's fairly self sufficient. i think it's going to be pain, but many of the developing countries on the other side of the world are pushed to the limit because of the galloping food and fuel price. isn't that also a form of a car? sorry, that cannot make a bar say when you make the decision for somebody else on the other side of the globe that they can take that pain. so i think as you 3 method self, it's important to realize if the system were to be applied said it would apply to all, including those that are imposing sanctions. well, they're suffering to, i mean, the price of gallon of gas in be in the united states is increasing,

but it's incomparable to the effect that it's having. let's say some people in africa, the americans can take it as painful, but maybe i was framing it more in terms of the impact. so when you have the deliberate usa violence to a fix palestine look at anywhere else in the world, we do not see the same in position of sanctions against those involved in the conflict itself. the consequences, the nfl to collateral damage. but even for the collateral damage, we need to respond, which is the cause of this, what is driving these things forward. and in that context, if we had everyone belonging to a singular multilateral body, an international court for justice as an example, in the sanctions that flow fund that should be based on the will of 8000000 people, not waving flags at each other. so to that extent, if we one fear outcomes and an economic system of sanctions against ever and behavior, it has to apply to it cannot be singular that certain countries have the opportunity

to utilize it. and others are just the victims of the point about africa and the consequences of the conflicts taking place as well. this is follows centuries of marginalized nation. and to that extent, africa itself needs to pick itself to that extent, africa has to develop the type of resilience that you say russia currently. and there's a lot more that africa itself must do into, to reduce some of its and not to be as dependent as it remains to be in will system . but you know, there are a couple of examples in africa. lee been being one of them and i'm not trying to defend the good offer regime, but i wasn't that country for many years prior to that conflict and it was relatively well off. certainly there were fair criticisms, how it was managed, but it was one of the richest and i would say most generous countries on the continent, then look, it's all reduced to a big slave market. do you think your content, which has been a source of material?

well, for a significant part of this, what do you think it would be allowed to chart is force him to stand on his own feast chain, you know, as you raise it in that way, it's so important for us to realize what is the norm. that's b as fi it towards. if africa continues to believe it is catching up with a western mode, a variety of capitalism as a courtesy of teens, it has no hope because those ahead constantly put in place obstacles towards achieving that state of africa really needs to reconcile itself to it's people. 1.3, bowie and people live in such conditions that you mention, and we cannot afford more international intervention in africa. it must be, as africans, it's libya was a key swan so of the african union, besides south africa contributing financially too. and that's why in terms of now, we need to be really concerned that the gender off african union becomes driven by

donors and not by the subscribing members who are african themselves. now let me broaden our discussion a little bit here because we're recording this conversation on this island. so they st. petersburg, economic form. and it's become a tradition here. you have some sort of a panel on the bricks countries, rozelle, russia, india, china, and south africa as well as some observing members. and it's true that they have enormous human and economic potential, but compared to the consolidation and integration of the west that i think that synergies remain in a somewhat latent form to put the diplomatically, what do you think prevents all those countries who have a lot to contribute to the international system from, you know, using the organization better or more efficiently. so i think as we understand bricks, it's important for us to look beyond just the little comparison. we have talking

off nearly 2 thirds of human being contained inside such a combination. and we need to ask ourselves that relationship between that number of people and the states that represent the points are going to make is clear, the internal contradictions within each of the 5 countries as they exist. some countries have managed to ment, manage those contradictions better than others. it has have been an external se below because of also the actions what is taking place in brazil. what's currently happening in india. things that should have the concern, all of humanity, but especially the bricks or maybe we on thing as much attention to exactly those internal contradictions. the potential exists, but it's people to people are potential. and we need to exploit more than just seeing it as states entry and leaving it, or talking to site on that this. one of the things that i hear a here in russia often is that for breaks to become truly meaningful,

it needs to develop not just mutual trade, but try to come up with a new socio economic system that would better integrate the best practices of the member states especially when it comes to sort of limiting the accesses of capitalism and expanding the public goods filled. do you think that's an talk? yeah. well, utopia has remained utopias until we base them in material realities and what we have available to us of the conditions that demand such solutions. it's really a question of whether the countries themselves. so if we use example, china has been able to recognize some of these challenges and has absorbed into its domestic agenda. so we can learn from china to that extent we have different systems, different cultures to other points are quite critical invoice and that's the narrative. the formation of the thought on logical aspect around picks itself. if

we link, if more to the non aligned movement with respect to the cold war and look at the period post, that is even better opportunities that spring from a 3rd aspect is actually deep kaloni ality and d colonization. our colonial mental structures remain preference and we see it's around us to civilization. all states are part of itself. we have so much to learn in terms of that, the messiah that has removed it from dominant point. if we return to the we have much better potential rethinking the world, our place in that, and in relation to the future, aspiration was more ecologically sustainable. i know that you have a great passion for public goods, and i wonder how far down the social isn't path. you're willing to take it because i read somewhere that as a key, if you were an avid humor of mars lennon,

do you think those someone discredited thinkers can still offer anything for the said bill, there's nothing that form that has been tried before. but perhaps in terms of ideas or in terms of value. so i think an enduring value, particularly of linen in this context, was the ability to translate ideas into practice found in the context and time in which those ideas arose. it was appropriate and we saw a massive move form in terms of the progress of humanity. but the, at a significant cost as well. when that was over time and over time systems, if they refuse the dynamic system that allows people participation. as soon as that gets encroached upon and restricted the possibilities of remaining creator, dynamic, i'm finding a futures gets constrained. so i think to that extent it would be inappropriate to bring linen from $970.00 and into 20. 22 is the appropriate no. and the live,

it's up to us, the ideas that we've drawn from it to bring it into practice. i would not advocate the type of state lead system that existed previously because what we have available to us to be 5 steps, what was available them means of communication or integration globally. that allows us to bring about change much more rapidly. those were not tools that you printed out on a little leaflet and distributed support for. so having these opportunities, i think creative, and especially in the younger generation, those 25 years younger. the possibilities without is a is so important. and we shouldn't then constrain if we are willing to say, as you say, maybe some hold the view in russia that socialism is a failure at the many that hold the view that capitalism is a failure. i know from my personal experience in south africa, that's a there are many people who share laughter. idea actually, where do you think the,

where do you think the country will move now after having very hard experience with at least in terms of the public health care, specifically in south africa has proposed putting in place the national health insurance system. it's a concern for us, it isn't the full solution. what we need is good quality health care available tool and object use and it's part of the reform agenda not transform is how to make the system such into one that allows for private participation that this process is opening up. and as we start implementing a national health insurance, which is already policy, we will start seeing the elements of a national health system emerge from it. and the national health system ultimately is about health, not about mit. and that's also quite critic important. it's a different way of thinking. we remove the sources of health. i think of putting

a human in the center rather than the material in 2 years. and the prophecy arise from another aspect to south africa, less the question of philanthropy, and whether we can expect private donations. and this is really what's troubled all of africa with vaccines as opposed to we can talk about distribution now distribution. but if you don't produce something, what, what do you have to ship, to the extent having productive capabilities remains important. and even in how we need to bring indigenous into and traditional ways of thinking about how about, well, be back into such discussions itself. and i guess that would apply not only for africa or south africa in particular, but for the rest of the one because in each individual countries we are dealing with pretty much the same challenges. but we are dealing with them in a different point. and i think these are going to accelerate any because climate change and the rapid pace of which that's happening. if we as societies have

evolved and emerged within particular geographic territories, we have come to understand how best to cope within those. tentative, that's the knowledge is that have been excluded. can we now norm to, as you said, a north american model of how the bricks have discussed welby reports were produced, but none of this because it didn't have a narrow economic perspective gained currency. so there are discussions such as that, and i was so impressed when i listened to russia presentation. i didn't think that that had such a well of indigenous knowledge in the northern territories, the eastern territories that incorporated. oh, similarly about the valley in your own experience, bad and good experience and being able to analyze it rather than looking at some distance star and believing that a only goal is to be like someone else. yeah, i think that's the crux of the matter to be like someone else know that a failure. no for us. each one of us is an individual,

but we co exist on the planet with other life forms. and to that extent, that's where indigenous knowledge is. so important over century, over millennia, we as a species have managed to cope with our environment in interaction with others. that's not the norm to do now. well, indigenous and global. ultimately in not it's a parent those, but it's a part of those that can work. well, we have to leave it there. thank you for these very interesting discussion. and so the challenge a christian as well. thank you for watching hope to see her again on the world's apart with . mm ah

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