of the economic system and in the world of the neo liberal, a system which some could argue is also a system of privilege. pretty much like apartheid. yes. to fighting which you gave many, many years of your life. and many of the people who have a stake in that system today argue that it needs to be reform. so do you trust the intention to reform with them in a more balanced, fair way, or do you think they will try to sort of shape the process in a way that keeps serving them? so i think what history is old, so talk to us is hit gym and they tend to reproduce it. and the ruling ideas because of have a tendency placing themselves upon people. they bind people's rationality and then lock people into choices. so if you don't mind, i would encourage rather than reforming the other problem, we need to transform. we need to actually embrace the fact that our challenges are bigger than what we've learned from us and for the future that allows us to survive on the drive that we need in your system. all the evidence shows us and it's most

acutely brought home by vaccine the pot it. so what we thought we defeated the autism 1994 to have seen what happened in the last 2 years. an entire continent was excluded from producing the vaccine on the basis that they did not hold intellectual property rights. now, in addition to call that we also now have the war in the ukraine, which at least here in russia, has a much broader conflict than just the charity away taking place. and both of the calamities in a way of changing the system because they covet pandemic already rearranged the way global system economic system was functioning. we're in the ukraine and economic sanctions and counter sanctions are delivering even bigger shocks to that system. do you, how do you think that wealth will be able to absorb with and what kind of a worlds feel we have after after it?

so i think it's very important as you raise those 2 issues are big issues for us. but we have to understand that in a 30 should, that even bigger than those 2, which is the crisis of the treatment. and the ecology that we are inside. the resilience that we all need to be able to sustain ourselves and dec demands and equitable sharing off especially knowledge resources and the tools to cope with what's happening outside. currently, if we accept the way in which the world is ordered, that is not something that's going to be deliver. it has to be, as you said initially taken, it has to be something deliberately acted upon so that people both such as system and resolve crisis. most of what we experienced today are the results of centuries of conflicts, but these contradictions come from a thing in the system. and it's incredible to believe at this point, the 21st century that people are willing to see us into a catastrophe, rather than change the system that's driving some time. catastrophe is, i mean,

look at what, what is happening right now. sometimes catastrophe is for the change on the system itself because i don't know if you visited was for the last couple of years. but they, they've been talking about the need to, you know, for more ethical balance distribution of well for, you know, decades on them. but it's, it is only now that the, the system seems to be changing by itself because people never had enough results to do. i understand as you raise the 2 in terms of the tools that we have available to us. so we all only had hammons, every solution has to be a male, i think as a complex 8000000 people. we have the opportunity to think of alternative ideas to resolve challenges and the barbarism that we see around the well being predicated. a lot of it originated in tampa itself, cannot be allowed to continue in there, as you said, broken promises once or twice. but now after decades,

what we see is real life that a last look at the excess mortality out of cold, with the people's lives been ross in russia and elsewhere in africa. this continues on a daily basis. i really think we should have mature as a species to transcend those tools or we have more than how much is available to us . you mentioned the fishes and i remember in one of your interviews, i think it was a couple of years ago, in the midst of the comment condemning to said that we as a species were on the rad. yes. not on the national level, but really on a global level, but nowadays everybody seems to have forgotten about not everybody, but many people have forgotten about that threat. there is a threat of a war in your brain right now. how dangerous it is in your, your juicing, we're still under threat as, as a species, because in that conflict, it's not only about the virus, but it's also about nuclear weapons. absolutely. connect to the we on the trips and the threats escalated. a big part of it is the way in which also information and

knowledge is being restricted and constraints. the imposition of certain restrictions on the flow of information really needs to be counted. it cannot be that a single narrative determines what's happening in the well, it's a collective in terms of social enterprise, the more exchange of ideas, the better for all of us. and we really need to encourage that type of dialogue to be released. let's, let's engage in that dialogue. and if i may, i would ask for you on reserves opinion because you are here in russia, but we're in ukraine and this is what i want to ask you about. it isn't very difficult. the issue for the venture, because on the one hand it's the use of while and it's a norm, it's last resources and human lives, both on both sides. but on the other hand, i know that many people here see that as an ontological struggling triangle for you . being who you are and being true to your own power for the right to develop

according to your own understanding of who you are as a nation. now i don't want to impose that. i knew i would like to have your opinion as somebody with inquiry removed from the western perspective. i'm critical, there was prospecting but can also be critical and objective to when it comes to rushes. and so i think if we asked this question a century ago, which is just a few years ago, it would have been fine using the tools that we had them violence being expressed for self determination struggles for national liberation, etc. but where we are today, we are enjoying in a much tighter intro dependence, not to interdependencies. it's so finally interns personally. we have friends, we have family, we have people we work with in both actually retreat. i have relatives in the ukraine that's actually every night and we have to ask ourselves in our families when we have conflicts. do we have to resolve it violently?

we should be able to transcend that. but then the powers that be in terms of wellsystems and not in favor of peaceful re solution. and that's so important that we continue to raise the opportunities for peace have been broached. in fact, people have been closer to achieving. but that doesn't serve the interest of those that are profiting from what's happening and what needs to happen for old besides. and we, here, we have here at least 3 sides, russia, ukraine, the larger west where needs to happen for all of them to have the motivation to have a realization, the finding some sort of a peaceful solution of them better than having this kinetic conflict. if you don't mind, if i use the link with the party that you mentioned earlier. so for, for century south africa existed where people with black skins were considered some pew. it was beneath expressed legally. and because steph position hierarchical was

determined that way. today we would see what a ridiculous idea you scratch me, i believe the same. to that extent, we've left so much in that way of understanding we need to push back against those interests that see profit over our lives itself, reconciling ourselves is possible, but needs to be people to people. and we cannot achieve that unless we confront you called at the wish. i would suggest being more specific in targeting, which is we are talking about. they are very particular transnational interest, most of them imported in countries, mult america, europe. and those are the ones that are frustrating the conflicts that are taking place. you mentioned that par site, and i think this sort of this distinction exists him even among the circles. why people? because a within the larger western community, i know that we, the russians, or eastern europeans in general have long been treated as some sort of barbarians.

you know, who, you know, not knowledgeable enough to absorb all the close of the civilized, western values. and in your writing, you, you argue a lot for sort of integrating localized indigenous knowledge into all sorts of political, economic, cultural thinking, understanding tradition, not putting it on the pedestal, but trying to integrated within ideological thinking in within the innovation. what is in the way of doing that because it's sim, so logical, you know, you don't have to be me. i don't have to be new. and yet there seems to be a very strong pressure to confine everybody to some sort of ideal. that doesn't work absolutely. so i think as you're pretty much in that way, the defense of the indefensible because that's exactly what we are confronted, needs to be confronted with the evidence. so. so when we saw initially take place,

there was a huge opening up in europe. refugees, welcome science held up at the same time as that's happening and trains are being welcomed and people are dying in the mediterranean, trying to cross over from africa. black students that were in these areas where he was pigs. how is it possible that we continue on the space that it's not that everyone that was taught to be ukrainian was welcomed in europe. professor we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments station. mm mm. mm mm mm mm mm mm. well don't middle alex. she's just gonna be on the left in columbia. nobody but i just want a lego that italian real name is logical law. school of

college. cool with glenda goodrich. yeah, it is public, your fear to be a number big enough feel. okay. and the phone making garden is nice to put you in the museum bushing below that season. now she did the wave of the pavilion autism traditional is, is, you know, it did all this noise or was it just had, like, i don't, i don't buy a deal. this wouldn't not have happened if nato has vida, didn't push this agenda, this war with that because i'm here this week, boston on that it should be to what about a nadia bit thought to get the nothing whatever the case. did anyone up up with his is what is okay to fill in that there with with mm

ah welcome back to was a part with arrested gun maharaja chief director of the institute for economic research on innovation and swan, a university of technology in south africa. professor, maharaja, before the break, we were talking about how unfair this world is. and one of the features of the current crisis is the fact that it's not only a russia and ukraine and the ones that are suffering. but many of the 3rd countries that have absolutely nothing to do in this part of the world in the global south. and that's primarily because of the use of unilateral use of extra tutorial sanctions. and if you look at it from an economic or survival perspective,

russia is a large country, it's fairly self sufficient that i think it's gonna work to pain. but many of the developing countries on the other side of the world are pushed to the limit because of the galloping food in fuel prices. isn't that also a form of a power side economic, a birthday when you make the decision for somebody else on the other side of the globe that they can take that pain? so i think as you're pretty much it, so if it's so important to realize if the system was to be applied fit, it would apply to all including those that are imposing sanctions. well, they are suffering to, i'm in the price of gallon of gas in the united states is increasing, but it's in comparable to the effects that it's having, let's say in some people in africa that americans can take it. it's painful, but well, maybe i was trade me for in terms of the impact. so when you have the deliberate use of violence to fix up different palestine, look up anywhere else in the world. we do not see the same position of sanctions

against those can for conflict itself. the sequences in i felt as collateral damage, but even for the collateral damage, we need to respond, which is the cause of this, what is driving these things forward. and in that context, if we have everyone belonging to a singular multilateral body, an international port for justice as an example, in the sanctions that flow from it should be based on the will of 8000000 people, not the waving flags at each other. so to that extent, if we one fear outcomes and in economic system of sanctions against ever and behavior, it has to apply to everyone. they cannot be singular that certain countries have the opportunity to utilize and others just the victims of the point about africa and the consequences of the conflicts taking place as well. this is for those centuries of marginalization and to that extent, africa itself needs to pick itself up. to that extent,

africa has to develop the type of resilience that you say russia has currently. and there's a lot more that africa itself and still internally to redress some of its and not to be as dependent as it remains to be stuff in there. a couple of examples in africa lead being one of them and i'm not trying to defend the good after regime, but i wasn't the country for many years prior to that conflict and it was relatively well off. certainly there were fair criticisms, how it was managed, but it was one of the richest and i think most generous countries on the continent and look at all reduced to a big slave market. do you think your content, which has been a source of material well for a significant part of this, what do you think it would be allowed to charge, of course, and just stand on its own feet, you know, on its own as you raise. it's in that way, it's certainly important for us to realize what is the norm that's being aspire

towards. africa continues to believe it is catching up with a western mode of i see of capitalism as a company of tense. it has no hope because those ahead constantly put in place obstacles towards achieving that state of africa really needs to reconcile itself to it's people. 1.3. 0 yeah. and people live in such conditions that you mention and we cannot afford more international interventions in africa. it must be, as africans, it's libya was a key swan so of the african union besides south africa contributing financially tool. and that's why in terms of now, we need to be really concerned that the agenda of the african union becomes driven by donors and not by the subscribing members who are african themselves. now let me broaden our discussion a little bit here because we are recording this conversation on this island. so they st. petersburg, economic form. and it's become a tradition here. you have some sort of a panel on the bricks countries, rozelle,

russia, india, china, and south africa. as well as some observing members, and it's true that they have enormous human and economic potential, but compared to the consolidation and integration of the west that i think that synergies remain in a somewhat latent form to put the diplomatically, what do you think prevents all those countries who have a lot to contribute to the international system from you know, using the organization better or more efficiently. so i think as we understand bricks, it's important for us to look beyond just a comparison. we have talking up nearly 2 thirds of human being contained inside such a congregation. and we need to ask ourselves that relationship between that number of people and the states that represent the point i want to make is cleared the internal contradictions within each of the 5 countries as they exist. some

countries have managed to ment, manage those addictions better than others. it has have been an external because also the action is what is taking place in brazil. what's currently happening in india. i think that should have the concern of all of humanity, but especially the break, or maybe we on thing as much attention to exactly those internal contradictions. the potential exists, but it's people to people potential. and we need to explain that more than just seeing at the state's interest and leaving it for parking site on that. this one of the things that i hear a here in russia often is that for a breach to become truly meaningful. it needs to develop not just mutual trade, but try to come up with a new socio economic system that would better integrate the best practices of the member states. especially when it comes to sort of limiting the excesses of

capitalism and expanding the the public goods filled. do you think that's an talk? yeah. well, utopia has remained utopias until we base them in material realities. and what we have available to us are the conditions that demand such solutions. it's really a question of whether the countries themselves. so if we use, by example, china has been able to recognize some of these challenges and has absorbed into its domestic agenda. so we can learn from china to that extent we have different systems, different cultures to other points of quite critical inputs. and that's the narrative, the formation of the thought on the logical aspect around picks itself. if we link it more to the non aligned movements with respect to the polls and look at the period post, that is even better opportunities that spring from a 3rd aspect is actually deep kaloni ality and d colonization. our colonial mental structures remain until we see it warner on us

to civilization of it's a part of itself. we have so much to learn in terms of that system, a site that has removed it from dominant point. if we return to the we have much better potential rethinking the world, our place and in relation to the future, aspiration was more ecological sustain. i know that you have a great passion for public goods and i wonder how far down the social isn't pap. you're willing to take it because i read somewhere that as a key you're, we're an avid consumer of marks and learning. do you think those someone discredited thinkers can still offer it anything for the state builders? not in that form that has been tried before, but perhaps in terms of ideas or in terms of values. so i think an enduring value, particularly of in this context was the ability to translate ideas into practice

found in the context of time in which those ideas arose. it was appropriate and we saw a massive move form in terms of the progress of humanity is found, but the, at a significant cost as well. but that was over time. and over time systems, if they refuse the dynamic system that allows people participation as soon as that gets encroached upon and restricted the possibilities of remaining creator, dynamic and finding a futures gets constrained. so i think to that extent it would be inappropriate to bring linen from $970.00 and into 20. 22 is the appropriate no animals live. it's up to us, the ideas that we've drawn from it to bring it into practice. i would not advocate the type of state lab system that existed previously because what we have available to us to be far outstripped what was available, the means of communication integration globally. that allows us to bring about

change much more. so this were not tools that you printed out on the left leaflet and distributed and got support for. so having these opportunities, i think creative, and especially in the younger generation, those 25 years younger. the possibilities without is a is so important. and we shouldn't then constrain if we are willing to say, as you say, maybe some of the view in russia that socialism is a failure at the many that hold the view that capitalism is a failure. i know from my personal experience in south africa, that there are many people who share bluffton idea. where do you think the, where do you think the country will move now, after having this very hard experience with at least in terms of the public health care. so specifically in south africa has proposed putting in place the national health insurance system. it's

a concern for us. it isn't the full solution. what we need is good quality health care available tool and object use and it's part of the reform agenda not transform is how to make the system such into one that allows for private participation. but this process is opening up. and as we start implementing the national health insurance, which is already policy, we will start seeing the elements of the national health system emerge from it. and the national health system ultimately is about health, not about medicine. and that's also quite critically important. that's a different way of thinking. we remove the sources of health, i think putting a human in the center awesome rather than the material in 2 years. and the prophecy arise from another aspect to south africa, less the question of philanthropy, and whether we can expect private donations. and this is really what's troubled all of africa with vaccine as well as opposed to we can talk about distribution now

distribution. but if you don't produce something, what, what do you to ship? so to that extent, having productive capability is, remains important. and even in health, we need to bring indigenous into and traditional ways of thinking about health, about, well, be back into such discussions itself. and i guess that would apply not only for africa or south africa in particular, but for the rest of the world because in each individual countries we are dealing with pretty much the same challenges. but we are dealing with them in a different way. and i think these are going to accelerate any because of climate change and the rapid pace of which that's happening. if we as societies have evolved and emerged within particular geographic territories, we have come to understand how best to cope within those territory. that's the knowledge is that have been excluded. and we now norm to, as you said, a north american model of how the bricks have discussed. well,

b reports were produced, but none of this because it didn't have a narrow economic perspective gained currency. so they are discussion such as that, and i was so impressed when i listen to russia presentation. i didn't think that they had such a well of indigenous knowledge in the northern territory as the eastern territories that are incorporated ultimately about value in your own experience. bad and good experience and being able to analyze it rather than looking at some distance star and believing that your only goal is to be like, yeah, i think that's the crux of the matter to be like someone else know they're fully enough for each one of us as an individual, but we probably exist on a planet with other life forms. and to that extent, that's way indigenous knowledge is so important over century, over millennia. we as a species have managed to cope with our environment in interaction with others. that's not the norm today. well, indigenous global. ultimately, it's a paradox,

but it's are those that kind of work. well, we have to live in there. thank you for these very interesting discussion and some of the challenge you, chris. well, thank you for watching hope to hear again well the part with with with one. no, sir, no, not a joke. no, no. well the whole more real than what they should end up unit

73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known. and grill oh, you know, to production. but it gives you, oh sure good. did that they're not eligible. no new son. new rochelle. he on more mom. she no longer thought this meant union from all one of up on on i got the month sale. i got your name. i understood. i wish to know about joy. oh new. i know you didn't or got one more pushed in jail it's i had to put the an all out buddy

bill, can you come up house? oh, it does go both to door or. oh, what does bundis the wow. she my indiana. i'm all i can send more on all 7 more. good. so you don't the year you're in love on all for them. how did they keep us together with i want to with this with you or is with you? i am with

full credit. it's going to be out of wood from beach. still easy to the station, but in the board with

ah, russian lead force is advanced in dunbar, securing the strategic city of several of done yet. it had been a strong hold of the ukrainian military in the loop gals republic also. and if we need to establish something like this, a command center, any place is good enough. even the cemetery martine visits heavily for 5 positions are bombed in by the ukranian army near the ton of russia and allied forces continued the mining territory captured from key to troops.