ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the west sanctions on russia are distorting and damaging the global economy. consumers all over the world are experiencing higher prices and shortages. at the same time, most of the global south has little interests in the west campaign against russia, and in the long run may benefit from a world economy in transition cross sucking russia in the global south, i'm joined by my guess. i'd are tangled in beijing. he's a senior fellow of the tie hay institute in new delhi. we have professor choy,

she is professor emeritus at the school of international studies at neuro university. and in bristol, we crossed to jace barra. she is the deputy leader of the workers party of britain, an author of the drive to war against russia and china, or across accruals in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate it's going to the professor in new delhi 1st. you get a lot of the week, we had the g 7 meeting and it's all western, all over western media. talking about the great decisions the leaders are making. but in the global south, you folks don't take much notice any more y correct? because you can see the panels. they've been to international meetings, one of the bricks and one of g 7. and you see the difference in the narrative. g 7 was all about, you know, kind of militarism sanctions targeting. are those exclusions there as bricks? was all about globally de supplement cooperation. you know,

financial linkages, open invasion. i know how, how do you see that? because, you know, we, when we had the, the bricks meeting here, just as we heard from the professor in new delhi. and they're looking for ways of, of cooperation. and i would also say, this is a really remarkable moment of pivoting to a multi polar world because the west is drawing lines and who it's not going to cooperate and who will punish. but at the bricks meeting, we had argentina in iran asking to become members in an organization where russia is that the west is isolating correct? there is a change in what is happening, the world from a unipolar to a motorcycle. nothing. i should just take

a little shout and we have no, we we stablish our, our america, it's actually have their wishes given the history of what has happened there. it's just at this point, maybe europe, russia, jewish, where they would retaliate. not sure. africa, jobs, america, asia, if they see this great power, but it's hurting them. they're the ones who are going to suffer the most from higher food prices, the most, the higher energy. they're already from the lack of interest in providing

vaccines to them. their income. i mean, for some reason you find on $1000000000.00 for supposedly ukraine, they couldn't find $50000000000.00 much to a mobile that would have an entire world job in bristol, which is really kind of remarkable here, is that we just had the g 7, which of course, like i said that, you know, it gets all kind of fanfare in the west and they are adamant and denying that they have anything to do with the increasing food insecurity around the world of since there's sanctions that are doing it. and they don't want to admit to it. and when you look at the global south that which actually is a consumer of a lot of grain that comes from russian ukraine. they see this obviously as a, as a deflection for a huge problem that the west has created, not only for itself for

a good part of the world. go ahead. absolutely. i mean, if you look at the sanctions war against russia is a classic case of a powerful man lifting a heavy rock to drop on his own feet. no, the west went into this for believing that he could crush the russian economy like that with a total trade and sections war. and it was so show that that strategy was going to succeed. it didn't really bother to think very hard about its military strategy. i didn't think it needed to have one, but the sanctions failed and not only did that fail, they've actually achieved the precise opposite. you know, rushes economy had already been substantially diversified and restored in response to kind of early rounds of sections. payment and trading mechanisms have been being partly developed by russia and by china for quite some time. c because they saw the way the wind was blowing, you know, the, the west has constantly used. it's economic and technological strangle hold on the world to force people into submission. and russia and china increasingly on behalf

really of the whole of the developing world have been standing up and saying no, and that's why we see their friendship in cooperation, deepening, and developing. and russia has showed the west, you know, and the worlds that there are other ways to conduct international trade outside of the safe system. now, there are other markets for its goods outside europe and america incentive, russian society collapsing into poverty. and honda, it's actually the use people who are facing a winter of hunger and blackouts, and the people in the rest of the world are taking careful notice of these lessons is go back to new delhi per professor. one of the interesting things 1st, i think one of the, one of the most important things and topping right now we've been watching it for years now. the de dollarization. but this is of the global economy. but this is an accelerant. this is accelerating this process because of those ridiculous words of rules based order that's translated for me as we can steal your money when we want to go ahead and new delhi. correct actually,

in the brakes has for several years now. been developing trade in national currencies and the president of the bricks actually said some years ago that we need to move away from the hedge and many of the dollars. now obviously we cannot do a complete de dollarization right away, but one has to have new reserve currency, you know, that you on et cetera already the basket of reserve. current fees are regulated by the i m f and this will accelerate, but ultimately the market is the fist of this whole process of getting alternate currency, though at the moment the dollar and the euro do dominate. but, but this kind of bilateral trade like india and russia, developing with local currencies or china and russia, etc. so there will be, i wouldn't call it at the moment,

be dollar i vision. but the alternate currencies are definitely going to come up to reduce the risk that the dollar is imposing on the was and the dollar jimmy jumped . it's very interesting that what's happening here. the whole strategy is to isolate russia, and i would say a strong message to china that's, that's a message. it's coming out here. but what they've done is they've isolated themselves, okay. the world that wants to have less and less to do with them because they're unreliable, unpredictable, and will use illegal means to get what they want. i mean, this is an amazing turn of events. so it was a paradigm shift. we've been to you and i've talked about this before, but this is a, an inflicting point where people would say, we're not afraid of the west anymore. go ahead. well, increasingly, people are saying that they don't have to be a fight of the west, so long as they learn how to stand together. and what the russia china partnership is showing is the strength of the rest of the world when it stands together. and

that, that block is increasingly growing confident, as well as economically powerful, and that's going to make all the difference. and as you say, create this kind of paradigm shift. you know, the, they, they all kinds of other lessons being taught. you know, you, you said yourself peter, about this kind of institutionalized theft. they call it sanctions under the power of sanctions, that they unilaterally impose. they allow themselves to terra, any treaty, any negotiation, any contract that steal any wealth that they can get their hands on from any country that they deem to be, you know, an enemy that's being sanctioned. so there's a lot of things that people to think about in what's going on. and as the professor was saying, with this increasing ability to, to trade by laterally in local currencies. you know the mechanisms for shifting the way the world operates financially. it's is really accelerating. now. it was go

back to our guest in beijing, or what obviously you don't speak for the chinese government, but it, given how china has been observing, how this rom sanctioned regime against russia's work. when the lessons are they drawing it? is it, is it bricks the answer other multilateral organizations? because the west is this not a reliable partner? go ahead and beijing? well, yeah, yes. i mean, at this point, i mean, i'm looks at the situation as being, in essence, created by the west. they see the same tactics used against russia as are being used against china. and that is an isolationist policy, where they are, the u. s. is using proxies, whether it's ukraine or, or taiwan or sion job in order to kind of create a situation where they claim that it is in fact not their aggression pushing. they, you know, violating says that were made to russia and the same to china. but simply using

these as an excuse to try to win a p r war. but the problem is, there's no long term strategy. i mean 30 percent of the world's energy is from russia. i mean, a good percentage of the world's manufacturing is from china. marcus or in china, nuclear weapons are in russia. and this, this kind of ill fated idea that was started by donald trump, that the u. s. can return to greatness by simply diminishing any potential. every shirt is absolutely wrong. if i could stay with you here, obviously, you know, the, that the west is testing china's resolve here because they've been there is that obviously china has been criticized by the west for not condemning russia. here is how far will that go when you think? because if, as we point out on this program, we had the bricks. conclave, i mean, russia isn't isolated, is that something that you know, the chinese are,

are realizing that you know, that the west sanctions are not, is affective, is i want to be actually, i have to go to a quick, i'm going to let you answer. i'm going to go to a quick break, and after that quick break, we'll continue our discussion on russia in the global south state with ah, for only one main thing is important for knox ism internationally speaking, that is, that nation's allowed to do anything. all the mazda races, and then you have the minor nation. so all the slaves americans, proc obama and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exist as long as it serves american interests. if it doesn't, it doesn't exist by turning those russians into this. danger is bullying man that

wants to take over the world. that was a culture strategy and walked out of it on your own. i not leashed off, didn't zip on and tablet block. nato said, it's ours. we move east. the reason us, hey jim, it is so dangerous, is it? the law is the sovereignty of all the countries. the exceptionalism that america uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nato, what is founded shareholders in the united states and elsewhere in large obs companies would lose millions of millions, or is business and businesses good. and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion. and when i would show seemed wrong. i

just don't a yes to see about the same because of the african and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for the common ground news. united states has always had a variety of tools to use in its tax on other countries. economic sanctions are often just a beginning. another thing you like to do is place some military pressure on the countries that you're talking about here. and there has to be an effort to demonize that country and the leader of that country. so we have

a responsibility for the whole world and we need to make rules for the rest because without us there will be care. oh, welcome back to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, remind you. we're discussing russia in the global south. ah, let's go back to beijing. i know it's really quite interesting. i've been watching evers, particularly a sense of putin speech in 2007 in munich about european security. and there's always been that message, you know, you know, but we have to make sure the russians and the chinese don't get together. but everything they do, everything they do makes a strategic alliance between russian china, all that more firm. and i think

a good part of the global south seas that is being real. and it, it is, it attracts people to that because these are too irresponsible players on the global stage, which of course is the complete opposite of what you're going to hear in western media. 247. go ahead in beijing. well, i mean, and they would not have wanted it in action in ukraine, but they understand that russia was pushed by nato us in europe. so that's why they continue to remain neutral in terms of the rest of the world, local south. this stance. i see here is once for colonial aggression, this idea that you can remain on top bike gunboat diplomacy and they're turned off . they've already been through that mill and they have no intention to return. ok, it's, and it's go back to a new deli, talking about neo colonialism early for in the beginning stages of russia's

military operation. there was an enormous amount of pressure put on india to follow the line and it didn't work whatsoever. it was. it's like a flat letter, it didn't go anywhere. and they didn't had that tinge of neil colonialism that you get in line. well, you know, india has its own national security interest, its own economic interest. it's one of the countries of, of the future. i would say the e u is a something of growing in the past now. so i mean, india stood up. i mean, again, is this a turning point, or is this a combination of points that we see india on the international stage? go ahead. when number one, you say india had such a long, stable non conflict and mutually beneficial relationship with russia that they were not going to take this for a very new kind of promotion that the u. n. the us were doing and they were a string of, you know, all their secretary of defense and trade coming in and actually putting

a lot of pressure on india. because for them it's the you will in the crown, if in the goals, you know, a lot of the global south kind of could become you know, could be kind of challenge. so it was very important for them, but india has listed this fisher and be this consensus behind the special. every political party writes less than be the intellectual, the institution of back this consensus they, they support this consensus that they are very clear that russia was trapped in this, in this war. that russia has been good for india. india depends on russian energy and defend supplies and the very big data rate. so that was number one, but now many of the american defense and other specialists are wanting india that look, if china attack you, your revenue run to this is again, you're putting a new threat and putting all kinds of an india reply saying, look,

we have enough information, and we have bilateral talk going on. yeah. so don't find a ratio. so that's what's happening currently. i'm really glad you brought that. i've got a job here. you know, you know, they, they always play that card. you know, that, you know, the play off country after, after another country, and that's what they tried to do with russia and china. and now we have india and china. and, you know, again, you know, it's not india's horn policy is not driven by the white house as much as they would like that here. but i find that to be a very primitive form of great power politics go ahead lately and oswell the countries of the what you call the global south of developing countries. the oppressed countries have a long history of interference domination, control looting by the west, by the imperialists. they also have a long history of trusting russia and china, why russia was formerly the soviet union. both the soviet union and china gave huge,

huge support to the national liberation, struggles all over the world in the colonial era. they have always treated those countries, the free countries that came out of that time with respect, with dignity, they've traded in terms of equality and mutual mutually beneficial development. you know, it's a completely different relationship. it has always been reliable and stable. and when russia or china give their word to another country, they stick to it, they respect them, and they are respected in return. so we can really say the basis for the kind of falling apart of the west plan to just pressurize everybody into doing as they're told. yes it is. go back to beijing a to i find a really interesting than western narrative. i'm particularly under the by the administration, is democracy versus autocracy. ok. and but what they showed them so they showed themselves to be more i'd mostly on ideological and the way they approached the world. this neil liberal ideology and it's gay creek. it deems the world,

the good versus evil and all that. and it shall, there was just saying there. that's that how the global south looks at it. they look at it as mutually beneficial and without any kind of domination. and this is what neo liberalism council. he does, you know, when i look at china, i don't see it as being an ideological place. i see as being very pragmatic. go ahead in beijing. well, we're just talking about this american exceptionalism idea that we can do bad things in america. and it doesn't matter because we're trying to do a pressure good. and quite frankly, i think people are tired of that people, especially countries that have suffered under not only european colonial, some, but the kind of cool nielsen that you estrus. practicing and is still practicing this kind of gumbo diplomacy. this idea that you can force other nations to adopt the ideas, principles and ideologies and methods and means by which you exist. despite the

fact that in the united states to say we, we see quite clearly some nation divide, it and nation that has not is not able to come together. that is in some respects on the verge of some sort of jeep to vomit. so, i mean it's, it's hard to lead when you cannot do. and right now the united states cannot lead by example, because they do not have oral surgery. or, you know, a basis to tell other countries what to do based on what's happening in their own. well, it's go back to the professor in new delhi, a, i'm sure you're aware of the literature, a world beyond the west, and i follow it very, very carefully. well, the development of the financial institutions trading trading agreements and, and whatnot. and i think that this is an assault on russia by the west is only going to accelerate that. and i think the global south has a lot more confidence now because as we pointed out on this program,

the fear level is lowering. they're not, is afraid, is they used to be, is matter fact. they can be actually quite indifferent. i think it was a lensky of ukraine. he had a, a zoom talk with the african leaders. only 4 out of 53 showed up. and i'm sure there was a lot of pressure on the west for african leaders to show up, but they still didn't go there. is the fear is fading. go ahead in new delhi. yes. so there's a straight quit going out to boston. so started with the african union because not just for that showed up the fact that matthew saws, the president of the african union actually said a few days before that that it was the rest to blame for the food crisis and sanctions to blame. and he said moscow is trying to open for plot lines. that's one point thinking about the confidence of the global south. now, the bricks, countries together their g d p is actually in terms of purchasing power parity is more than that of the g 7. so, you know, they don't need to hang on to the g 7,

except if they give them you know, respect and as you said, a number 3, i wonder, is one new point and that is tomorrow. when the neighbors strategic document comes out, you will see that the entire focus is going to shift the china because that's what they really want to get. oh yeah, i think that's going to fail quite frankly. and because they think they have already just decimated, rush average is completely false. thank you. don't just continue on with that. i think that's exactly how i see this here is to try to collapse the russian economy . and then, you know, what russia lick it's wound and then the real target is china. that's exactly how i have seen it here. but the, the, one of the things, you know, you know, i've talked before, i just think the west is going to double down. they never learn anything. they're to so idea, logically obsess. they cannot learn from their mistakes. they just print more money and misery, their own people because they can't admit they make mistakes. but can't they can't

change course. well, it's like the leopard that can't change it, spots isn't that, you know, imperialism is imperialism. is impaired as a monopoly. capital c, profit and domination, uncontrolled. it doesn't do respect. it doesn't do human rights and democracy. those words, it does domination and control. and ultimately, it's financial has been backed up by its military power. but of course, what we're seeing with the war in ukraine is the limits of both of those powers being very clearly highlighted the another force is emerging capable of standing up to imperialists. and of course, there are any answer to that is to double down and shines, you know, escalades and escalate and escalate and, you know, failing in the war and russia will make the more hungry. that's the crazy thing about the system and it's logic. but what they are doing in the process is empowering is strengthening the result of all those countries that get in its way. it tried to isolate so many countries that all is isolated when well, hang on

a minute. if we get together where the majority, you know, as you said earlier than that, they're actually end up isolating themselves from the real economy of the world. and russia has shown to the developing countries of the world that another path is possible. if you've had enough of submitting to this in period a stick tact. yes it is. go back is go back to beijing one. when it here. i think that nato in europe is patently fail, but that's not stopping them from starting a nato in the pacific. here again, doubling down on failure. one minute left the you are my friend in beijing. yeah, i mean, those are china is obviously concerned about this. i mean, i was saying tactics have been used in europe, i guess. rather than using them against china, you know, obviously has parallels. but you know, right now you want to understand that russia is in a survival. it's been attached, it's been security, has been compromised. it feels that it's been lied to. and china fuels increasingly

the same way when the u. s. starts hedging on, you know, what is the one china policy when they stop talking about china, they start talking, start talking about the p r c. it's a clear indication that they are attempting the same tactics down a different area. ok, that we end on a very interesting point there. we could all be watching this here. i want to thank my guests in bristol, new delhi, and in beijing i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember across luck with oh. 2 i get the deal good. a i think is 70 percent of even 80 percent of the, of the below for why in the few

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to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known. the real and you know, to production issue or show that they're not feeling good on you son, new rochelle. he knew monica can no longer thought. this is meant new one up. i'm new and i got the sale i stuff on monday. i wish i got julie who didn't know i had to put all of this code and all you nice to do you want to on this?

she my new on a on all. i don't the, you know, put them out there to give us the me, north atlantic alliance, reconnaissance aircraft, and warships cruising close to rushes, borders have become commonplace along with military hardware redeployment and large scale exercises. nato has also developed its offensive capability near the russian borders.