in a chance to undercut the rules based international order. they say this runs counter to our values and interests as nato. so obviously, now it seems, you know, it's not just a, a nominally defensive alliance aimed at re militarize in europe, back to code war levels against russia, but now against china as well. so really, yeah, i think i'd, i'd have to agree with your other guests and say it's really impossible to interpret what's happening in europe is anything other than re militarization back to cold war era levels. exactly. is scott in this, in it with the adding, so sweden and finland here, which, you know, the, the nato border with russia now is expand like 800 kilometers. then that gets, it is, is far more dangerous with its expansion now. now, of course, the russians have made it very clear that they're not so miffed about that because they don't have any issues with them. but, you know, the more countries that are nato countries are boy russia,

the more there is the likelihood of something going wrong. and i think that this, that this is kind of a game of chicken that is very, very dangerous. and is why it is said here. i mean, this is a nato ization of europe. it is the militarization of europe when actually if you look what's going on in ukraine, everyone should draw the opposite conclusion. i got, it didn't work out whether that been a conflict here. maybe we should totally rethink that. they're nowhere going near that. go ahead. scott. one of the interesting things that i've taken from the nato summit is that they have, they are aggressively pursuing a notional reconfiguration of nato. meaning, you know, we are going to transform from 840000 strong, ready, fortunately, 300000 strong, ready force. he got the 300000 of the united states is going to put the 5th court headquarters in poland. it's just a quarters. there is no 5th corps and like toys there. but he goes on the spy stuff

out there. wow. who's going to pay for it? i mean, germany says we're going to build, you know, 300000000000 euros to rebuild the german military. now with the economy, they're going to have after this winter, what, what you're going to use for money. what are they can use for fuel? the point is they're, they're putting this very aggressive framework in place, but they don't have anything to cover it with. and by expanding nato into finland and sweden, as they're talking about, as they're apparently going to do what they're doing is guaranteed that there will be additional points of tension. yeah. but the thing is, if you want to fight the russians, you better have more than a powerpoint presentation about a theoretical 300000 troops before you crossed out, right of departure, because russian troops aren't theoretical. they're really in ukraine. they're

really kicking, but it's gotten if i could just finish up with you here is i finding kind of interesting historically that we could see german tanks in the baltic? republics. i mean, there was a major conflict to get them out of the baltic republics during the 2nd world war. it's really kind of kind of erie that way. ted, let me shift to you of an intense mania. ready which i just saying, i got a real good. you know, we may see german tanks in the baltics. if they continue, we'll see german tanks destroyed once again in the politics. okay, that will be a topic for another program here. let me go to ted right now on the, the, the, the other side of all this is that the mask is off. i mean, russian knows who his adversaries are. doesn't have to listen to all of the claptrap in the boiler played nonsense from brussels. any more they know that they're being targeted as an enemy here, and russia will take re one response to that obviously. so, i mean, i don't see what progress security in europe has been made at all here. go ahead 10

. here. i couldn't agree more and i've been going around saying for a very long time, the end of the former diplomat. i always think that in georgia is better than war war, winston churchill. but when you're facing an alliance against, you know, for a long time and alliance against nobody, because no one. right. and they would credit for actually being an anti russian alliance. and now fine with the math is slipping. we're finally saying, do they're worried about who they're planning against? they're making, you know, these preparations. it's got to the moment it's a powerpoint presentation. but if you look through these documents, it, it just appear. there's some pretty astonishing stuff being written. if you wouldn't mind, i'd like to quote a couple more a little because some of that is really frightening. if you look at the implications there, strengthening the alliance and accelerating its adaptation. ok. someone wants to tell me what they are adapting to more strongly i,

i'd be really interested in hearing, but even something that's down to knock us like significantly strengthening our deterrence and defense. okay. 40 k to $300.00 k rapid reaction force. that's strengthening defense. if it ever happens, ok, how do you strengthen deterrence? yeah. morning. better news, more in better news. what are the options? so there's a lot of stuff in here that's really kind of frightening. and again i returned to accelerate in taishan. what exact, there's not one word in any of these documents that hasn't been wrangled over for weeks by minions like i used to be. ok, so there's nothing in there by accident. so what do you mean by accelerating? and i'll tell you what, i think it means ted is that nato wants to replace the united nations. it'll be an organisation of the willing under the united states. and it will, nato will say, these are our sanctions, which of course, all the sanctions coming out of european united states are illegal under international. they were not sanctioned by the united nation. nato wants to expand

to the east. it wants to re, wants to be the world body that makes decisions. then that's another topic for another program. why it, i mean, you're in the belly of the piece. what is the mood like? i mean, what, i, you know, what is the mood of a military alliance getting together? i mean, are there cocktails or the buffet? i mean, what, what's the mood like there? well, among the nato elite, yeah, i'm sure they are quite a, quite enjoying themselves. the picture outside of the 4 seasons hotel is a little bit different. i mean, aside from just attempting to navigate this sort of elaborate that's been created around nato to make sure that it doesn't actually have to deal with any of the rabble that's, that's a major, major pain. i mean, you have these essentially military checkpoints being erected that off traffic that make it so that for example, to get back to my hotel, i had to walk 20 blocks to go a span of 3 bucks. that's a pretty typical experience. i think your average person in spain and just in terms

of the kind of social conditions, the economic conditions, i want to say this month's been hit a 37 year high in terms of inflation. this is had devastating consequences in terms of, you know, the fuel prices in terms of food prices. all of these as a direct consequence of west illegal as you note sanctions against russia, against the world's one of the world's greatest energy. and fertilizer suppliers have had extremely predictable results, and the people who are paying the price are, are not as well. it is a little people that will pay the cost. it's not the decision makers. here. we're going to go to a short break gentleman. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato and it's ambitions state with a

new cartridge. and if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple of don't put your human symbols on display a and talk to strangers. 7 i avoid noisy gatherings with what she can do. i get a minute actually eaten your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll, russian, a

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welcome back. across that were all things considered on peter mel. tremonti were discussing nato in its ambitions. ah case, go back to scott scott, it's going to happen. i don't know the timeline, but the, the ukrainian military will be utterly destroyed basically. the way i look at it, ukraine is turned into a failed state. will be very much whatever is left of it will be very dependent on the e. u. um, how is nato going to reactive is considering the festive activities in madrid right now. you know, that's one of the, the, the unknowns of nato. so, you know, setting itself up for failure, um and it, nato cant afford another failure. i think people tend to forget, did. a year ago,

nato was, was inflicted, one of the greatest embarrassments in its history. the, the defeat in afghanistan and the requirement to withdraw precipitously because the united states, it's greatest supporter and underwriter, abandoned it, in afghanistan, and in abandoned the mission. it was a failure. and yet, here we are a year later in nato setting itself up for a show your of even greater magnitude if there is no serious military analyst in the world who thinks it ukraine can turn this around. you can pump as much nato equipment into ukraine as you want to give them everything. nato has short of a nuclear weapon, and it won't change the alco. because ukranian army has been destroyed, devastated. it's lost. the majority of its trained forces, its core, and an untrained personnel into a conflict where the russians have superiority across the board. the only guaranteed outcome is more death and destruction. i don't think ukraine will

survive as a nation state that so seriousness defeat will be. and then what nato, good ted, you know, for bright prior to the con fab of nato, we had the g 7 meeting. and basically they came out with the line, a pledging support for ukraine quote, for as long as it takes did anybody in the west vote for that? i mean, you know, why it just told us about the conditions in spain that you know, the, the highest inflation in recent memory. and that's only going to get worse. i mean, winter is coming. and if you look at the russian, the, the way europeans are dependent on russian energy, which is really quite comical. you know, we have to cut off the russians, cut off the right, but then they're going to be desperate for energy. and then they get to blame russia anyway, which of course is a topic for him. that's still another program here. but i mean, we know whatever it takes. what does that mean? ok. i mean, you can, ukraine cannot be a fail cannot be defeated. well,

just as scott said, no one in their right mind thinks it's going well for the ukrainians. how do you react to that? go ahead. well, $2.00 is that there are, there are multiple layers of energy trouble out there. one of them, obviously, is, is the current conflict taking place in europe. but another, the dedication that many states have made in a trend the way, you know, as they alluded to in glasgow a few months ago, that they're going green, they're getting rid of fossil fuels, and they're going to replace them with renewable, except they aren't because they can't because there's no baseload power provided by renewables until they get massive nuclear, massive batteries that are capable of backing up and offering baseline support. renewal, you will see anyone be able to rely on them here or not. it's really, it's winter time, and a couple of states and the eastern seaboard had been within hours of brown out that not blackouts because they've been shutting down coal fired power plants faster than they can build windmills and solar cells. second point,

you quoted g 7 language on ukraine and support for it. i'll quote your native language. we reiterate our unwavering support for your brains, independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity within an internationally recognized borders extending towards territorial waters. what they left out, the most important part, which is the last followed by except in 2014 why, why? i mean, it seems to me, i mean it's, this is we're in, it's, it's kind of, you know, muddy environment here. we know we have, we have these definitive statements, 77 in nato, and then you have, you know, joe biden was, i think it was like 10 days ago, 2 weeks ago, he's already hinted there off ramp all with lindsay didn't listen to us. you know, somebody is going to have to take the fall for this. ok, because i cannot see under any circumstances the quote and what unity of the europeans, which is a fiction in itself here. i mean,

nato is primary mission is to exist. we've all known that for a very long time is all the to exist, the keep it going. okay. now it's, as scott pointed out, the humiliation afghanistan was one thing and now one is still and then we have a president. the united states is an empty suit here. i mean, it's, i, i can see how they couldn't put lipstick on this pagan, say it's beautiful. go ahead, wyatt. well, now you have these admissions coming from the mainstream media just 2 days ago, and then publish a piece saying that white house officials are losing content that ukraine will ever be able to take back. all the land is lost to russia over the past 4 months. and i mean, you, you even have these admissions within this piece from a congressional a whether ukraine can take back these territories in large part, if not entirely,

a function of how much support we give them. but you do have this effectively recognition of the fact that what all of us have been saying for several months, which is that this is in fact, that the fact that nato property war against russia, this is not, you know, plucky ukrainian resistance. somehow, despite all eyes fighting back against, you know, country 10 times their size. no, this is a, a full on military conflict at this point between the world's greatest defensive alliance and a but a one of the world's greatest military powers. you know, which i think explains much more effectively why it is that ukraine didn't immediately overnight to come to the russian military might. well, i mean i, scott is, as i said on this program before, and a lot of people don't acknowledge it. but for 8 years the ukrainian army was trained and equipped in money by nato. and it is a formal part. i mean the u. s. has bases in, in, in europe. turkey has

a real army and it has, it's, you know, it, metals and it's a neighborhood and then you have ukraine. ok, not the germans off the french, not the italians, not the not lithuania. and this is a real military force has been destroyed, being slowly but surely destroyed. but i, scott, i have a question, a question for maybe more of an observation here is that, you know, we have russia, quote unquote, being isolated on the world states which has not happened. ok as best i think if you look outside of the western world, the, the conclusion that you draws at russia stood up to the collective west and is winning. scott? no, it's i think what we're looking at here in the, the gentleman in tasmania, i apologize for not returning. said, you know, riley pointed up, you know, but there is no difference between the g 7 meeting this year in the nato summit. there one in the same, they're the same people talking about the same issues and they, they reach

a conclusion. and peter, you, you, you said something was extraordinarily important of that. what is being defended here is the rules based international order in nato has become a supplementary military power projection capability of the united states. to continue this, the g 7 exist to promulgate this in russia in china have come together and said that they are going to destroy this, that they're going to replace it with the law based ordered the united nations charter. and it appears that the majority of the world is rallying behind russia and china. this is a losing fight for the united states. this is a losing fight for nato. the only question now, how much damage they're going to be able to do as they go down. yeah, interestingly enough, ted, you know, if you look at a western om meddling around the world, we can look at afghanistan. we can look at

a rack, we can look at syria, you know that, that the verb for the average working person that will pop up on the news maybe is there, you know, and they're driving to work or something like that. and you know, and what is the economic impact on them? maybe nothing, maybe it's negligible. but now this is a conflict that everybody feels in the way. this is the 1st time we've had in modern history with a west goes out on one of its adventures and everybody feels that every single day that is not sustainable and democracies go ahead. absolutely agree here. if i could, i'd like to make one more point about nato, since i work there during the last period of my foreign service career. i want to talk about article 5, which people seem to think is a guarantee. it's not yet. it's nothing of the sort. it means that we'll think about coming year, defense prior nato. so the bad atmosphere. but i want to quote the language from paragraph 27 of the new strategic concept. we will invest in our ability to prepare

for detour and defend against the course of use of political, economic energy information and other hybrid tactics by states and non state actors. hybrid operations against allies couldn't reach the level of armed attack and could leave the north atlantic council to invoke article 5 of the north atlantic treaty. okay. so what they're saying now is in the wrong circumstances. if you send out me tweaks, we might new you. yes. and also if i could add onto it here, your carbon footprint is too big. okay. alright. and where are those trends in your schools? ok. what it is is this is moving the goal post. this is exactly, i'm really glad you brought that up, ted. because the anything could be a pretense to invoke, you know, article one and then article 5 here are rapidly running out of time. you know why it again, if i go back to what's going on in madrid here,

i have there been protest against the, the compact. there was a major protest on monday, thousands of people came out from all across spain to reject. what were they? it was a engine is what were they saying, what was about there was something to pull out of. they were calling to pull spain out of nato, and they were calling to restore real actual strategic autonomy to europe, to be able to function, you know, in the interests of europeans as opposed to in the interest of the small ruling elite in the united states. and they were denouncing nato as an imperialist block. so, i mean, you have a pretty vociferous rejection from, from many thousands of spaniards of this summit of what it represents. obviously none of that was, was reported in the mainstream media because it's not particularly convenient to demonstrate that the feelings of actual spaniards run completely contrary to what we're hearing on the news from biden, from, from prime minister pedro sanchez. so,

so yeah, i mean, you do have a pretty thorough rejection of the principles being espoused here, but obviously, you know, we're just not going to hear about g 7. and nato don't confuse that with democracy in the people's will because they are antithetical. gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guess in delmar madrid, and intense mania. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time remember? ah, ah. with talking with the bus a,

a with a mortgage that also the situation. does she somebody over there or so with your property or will you look, are you up with an idea where as you know, that way i don't mind ah,

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a lot closer on a whole bunch. thank you said a little short list. joining total condemnation, gross daily, and now enclosed dostoevsky, to cascade shostakovich that i need to you a quick call to talk left. but yes, sir, that would be the time. will you do a bummer lee? you're not going to do that a lot a wrong one. i just don't know if he has to figure out because the answer to an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. a triple with a one up with a question, given him a, with

a, with a good will gesture. russia says it has pulled its troops from ukraine snake island to facilitate the un backed export of grain, cutting off to you speculation on the global food crisis. plus we must not promote a famine that is the message from the pakistani foreign minister as she urges the u . s. u unfreeze afghanistan to assets amid a severe economic crisis. nato's summit in madrid, wrapped up with the block, granting china a strategic priority for the 1st time. that's after labeling russia.