can become transformed to become part of that negative environment. and it's any of us, or in fact, most of us the office of naval intelligence, it was a pretty consistent cut out front for cia. they funded much of this research. and i don't know if there was a yield that they, they produce a yield for this cruel science. i don't, i that's, it's, maybe i'm wrong. i just don't think they do it might play out spectacularly in the military. so the connections would be much further down the road. it would be particularly in the iraq war and in the setting up of get mo and all of that. and by the time you get to 2001, it's already this cultural artifact. and so it is going to be picked up by

by anyone for any purpose noun, in kind of people held before tunnel are not there because they stole the car. they are not common criminals in their enemy, combatants and terrorists who were b did change for acts of war against our country. and that is why different rules have to apply to the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle end of the student volunteer and mcgill university, and then if you look back for 2002, when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x, right?

at montana mom there and goggles gloves in here, most that look good god. just like that. 957 sketch. confer with after 911. all of us working at p h r. i realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation. gone wild, meaning torture, cruel. in human integrating teet treatment the use of extreme isolation was one of a range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth. literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many,

many days. and that is just unbelievably destructive. and i was the 1st to really learn to go down there in the commission process in a 4 to 6 months period. you see a market deterioration in many respects when if you're a year or 2 solitary confinement, you're going to ask the defendant for the 1st time in 2 years to, to, to interact with other human beaks. beyond his lawyer and his jailers. it's going to be the jury that's going to decide his life. he's going to be put on the stand. and that's where he's going to speak for the 1st time to the world for 2 years. if to be shut off from the world, it's impossible. mm. cash

spent about 9 years in active duty and then i'm still in the reserves in 2011. the department of defense assigned me to assist on the team, representing allergic mohammed, legally defendant in iowa. case. what i can say is that the u. s. government has acknowledged that for the periods between 20032006, mister mohammed was held at, has certain undisclosed foreign locations, black sites, otherwise known as flexes. right. it was what a boarded over $183.00 times. that's correct. i can say that there is a memos between the department of justice. i various organs of the us government to include the department of defense, the central intelligence agency, as to what types of enhanced interrogation techniques would be authorized for

certain types of detainees who when they began confining pantano, they moved to having psychologists do interviews with patients, discover individual flaws, individual sources of trauma and security. and then they, they also discovered because they were demanding with arabs and muslims. a muslim males are uniquely upset by nudity and also by female fiscal contact. and then fear of don't race has always played a role in american torture. it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments, punishments that were used on slaves and, and,

and you might find that strange, but there was one area where slaves were never whipped, but you use clean techniques on them. so they didn't leave marks. and that was, if you're going to sell a slave, because a slave that had with marks means that they were not going to obey. and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. a cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of, for decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form, as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton, an individual person could pick in a single day. so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the very beginning

ah, in these kinds of cases many people in the system and the people who are imposing these conditions believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people. and a lot of it is about the other dis of them religiously, ethnically, nationally, culturally, it's easier than it would be to someone from your own community to do that. so

in guantanamo being. secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller, whose job was to extract information. and jeffrey miller made up a cd or staff did. and i included a rack and are under the oh, with the permission of the commander their general sanchez event can rent training sessions for the interrogators and the staff and upgrade person, or he transmitted the guantanamo techniques to the abil gradstaff. basically, the restraints were removed and they were told to get results. the thing that became so clear is that what united states was doing was not a secret. it was hidden in plain sight. it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released, which were just, you know,

the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening. that people in this country began actually talking about it what we did in a lab was exactly the way to do. and if i had to work on it all over, yeah, exactly the right. same course of actions that we did exactly with ferris in them. all. not all of them i can differently whether one does 1600 of them. we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 30

is 1600 and they, they are the worst ones are. are the ones we haven't seen? ah, who so yes they were violating. i know it's our regulations and what they were doing, but they were operating within a system in which they were condition they were structured in order to violate those loss when you

arrived at the wave where you aware of what had happened there. oh, almost immediately after we arrived that i would grab we, we were briefed that there was misconduct, but we weren't given details. and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't. they didn't talk about it. so we, we didn't know, i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely. you know, you, you, you couldn't, you, you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being rather than putting them in distress. but then we were confused, and then of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon, authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started adopting those techniques when i was station in mosul. among them were stress

position, sleep deprivation of inducing hypothermia just a any way we can put them in distress using dogs. this is, this is a slope. so called slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say aloud and even those were already torture to doing extreme things, rape and sodomy in, you know, at the most extreme forms of physical and psychological brutality. ah

ah, ah, need to come to the russian state full narrative as tight as i phone and the most lensky investment in goals house music within the city? probably seattle keys on that is 2000 speedy. when else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin movie, up machine, the state on russia for date, and c r t spoke next. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with,

with a crystal ball was then yeah. like i'm on that single, don't know, but look, i think now or in point additional full and i would at last but i had i like that mission with mother study. that's what i see. what i do. well, that's envelope. it's like, let me look it up. let me ask with like a dealership in my store book. when you go to meeting you,

you also the upgrade you about the one like i was supposed to do with you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it. and the reality of course, is that torture like any physical skill right? requires training, requires practice. it requires an institutional setting, a built environment really, you need to have this institution, my space, physical space in which you can perform torture. we want, you know, we, we want to be successful. i was against the war, i'm a liberal, i didn't vote for george bush, but i wanted to do my job well, you know,

i felt like, you know, if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people, then we could in the or quickly that would be better for, for iraq, better for, for us my, the people who are in recent days has been a focus, a few who have betrayed our values. and so in the reputation of our country and with 6 or 7 investigations underway and a military justice system that has values, we know that those involve whoever they are will be brought to justice. i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable. i

i, i was disappointed myself and our behavior over there was terrible. so i was, i was, i was very angry when the, i have a great trial happened, but i, i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team. i said, well, the person that you should really talk to is, is embargo. he ran this, experimenting the 19 seventies and the situations at abu ghraib as far as i can tell, are those conditions that are also reproduced in the in barto experiments. chip, frederick, he's the man here. oh, he was the one who had the idea of putting in electrodes on the hood. his lawyer said, the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib, not only not

a single senior office that went to trial, not a single senior office, they got a recall letter of reprimand. in fact, in some cases, they even got promoted at the offices. so it's, it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. mm. for those individuals who were directed by the us government to, to engage in any technique that i believe would arise level torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. i think they lose a little bit of themselves every time they have to come in and human act. and i markers out to them as well, frankly in i don't think i noticed that until i got back. and then, you know, i tremendous guilt and i think a

lot of us develop signs that were later diagnosed as p p. s. d, but i don't know. i think that they have another name for now, and i think it was, it's called like moral moral failure. so to assistance is feeling that people come back with after being in war if they feel like they think they've done things better outside of their moral compass. ah, we're still evaluating how we're gonna approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. and i don't believe that anybody has above along. on the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as lowe's, as possible,

of looking backwards. ah, look backward, well, forward is going to be like backward. if you don't do something about what happened in the past, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. and for this, among other people, i fault. president obama, essentially he gave everybody, dick cheney donald rumsfeld. he gave them all a free pass george w bush. they're all going to be rehabilitated. they're all going to be treated as great statesman. one day, i mean, they gave president obama of nobel prize for not being george w bush. the question, of course, the world tap, dancing around or avoiding as does it work as torture work doesn't work. people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus, a terrorist organization, revolutionary organization, accomplished organization,

whatever organized form of collective balance, it might be, they won't break. now. and the people that you pick up that are innocence. yes. you tell them to pieces, you have to store them, you will ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands as an interrogator did have intelligence. but most the vast majority of the people that i dealt with work just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up and he's raves. i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or, or confessions. it's often just been used are out of it out of anger and fear

ah right after september 11th attacks, september 11th, 2001. a very well known harvard law professor islander schwartz came up with the ticking bond theory and he said, so what happens for example, if a terse, as a ticking time bomb a small nuclear bomb in time square and the bombs ticking. and we only have so much time, we must torture. and then you know, the show 24 of course started every segment with that giant clock ticking away. and it kind of gave visual reality a visual imprint that resonated with this discussion of ticking time bomb. in

addition to the way that it framed our reception of torture on a popular level, just among the civilians in guantanamo itself, they were getting pressure from the department of defense and they have these meetings. and in the meetings they screened the 2nd season of $24.00 and use that as a jumping off place to decide what tortures what methods they were going to propose to donald rumsfeld that they would use against the people they were holding in. guantanamo, i think, was very influential on the people that i worked with. i i know that some of the techniques that people wanted to use they had, should they had seen on television programs. for instance, i mentioned to you our leaders wanted us to mock and mock executions and also using electricity. and these were things that they had seen on television. it's, i mean, no, no one trained us on that. that wasn't,

that was simply from colored here in the united states. we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person, the lonely for the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he's absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it, is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him, and in order to save all these people, there was always this anxiety in american politics. which is that democracy kind of makes, makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do. there's a very gendered, masculine s sort of notion behind this real men, torture and and, and democracy makes us sissies too. in the middle east,

we have people shopping, the heads of christians. we have things that we have never seen before. i would bring back water boarding and i'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding. oh hey, if you're in your terrorism, people could be a free trial detention fcc 2 sounds for 2 years. they're dirty. where would you say that the manhattan m c. c? is while he done in plain sight, a black sight, an american song? yes, but i would say it's black say that the sense of the black sites that people are being taken out and tortured, but they're being tortured in the way that our daily lives are being managed or not managed. they're not living a day or a life. they are a, a neglected product in

a warehouse where there's no maintenance, you know, i mean, even as like the most is the most sole engaging place i've ever bid. one of the things that we need to consider now and has become a quite an issue, is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policeman and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in integrations, today, there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques, including freezing rooms, sleep deprivation, all these things are now being used on, on, on immigrants and children. so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do and war comes home .

ready ah, if we keep torture clean. ready then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us isn't really so bad. we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure. i mean a bizarre way, it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us. you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side. and in return i promise you will never die. it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course what. ready ready on the history of the american empire, a certain 50 years from now, historians might have to say, as french historians have said about french algeria. that something was lost in the russian bridge support of moral authority that made america war later sacrificed

for this the shamira of effective interrogation. ah, when i was showing wrong when i just don't hold any world yet to figure out this thing becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves world,

the pardon? we choose to look for common ground, the moving business, and you can create a rugby shoes and you made it comes green. when you wrote, you got to release the sanction of concealing influential assumptions for him with the different student employ, chopped you through with them. the problem and you're still moving. sure if you're here take you have history to your board and not the study skills on that. just a bunch of stuff coming off on it which, which and it was just showing up and pushed the sustainable for a moment because i knew you were going to go no, no,

i don't know what to do. giving me that. you're going to go to these just opinions enough is come on the in a with the blow in. welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle as a so called american century come to an end. if so how did it come about? was it poor leadership or the mission to lead the world itself was always destined to fail and what follows the end of the american century the.