and engage with when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground situation forces can overwhelm, can dominate even the best of us. ordinary people, put in a bad evil environment. can become transformed. to become part of that negative environment. and it's any of us, or in fact most of us the office of naval intelligence, it was a pretty consistent cut out front for sa. they funded much of this research. and i don't know if there was a yield that they, they produce a yield for this cruel science. i don't, i that's, it's maybe more,

i just don't think they do. it might play out spectacularly in the military. so the connections would be much further down the road. it would be particularly in the iraq war and in the setting up of get mo and all of that. and by the time you get to 2001, it's already this cultural artifact. and so it is going to be picked up by by anyone for any purpose. mm. mm hm. kind of people held before tunnel are not there because they stole the car. they are not common criminals in their enemy, combatants and terrorists who are

b did chained for acts of war against our country. and that is why different rules have to apply to the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle end of the student volunteer and mcgill university, and then if you look back for 2002, when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x, right? at montana by there and goggles gloves in here, most that look by god, just like that, 957 sketch confer with after 911. all of us working at p h r. i realized that there would very likely be

a huge problem of interrogation gone wild, meaning torture, cruel. in human integrating teet treatment from the use of extreme isolation was one of a range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth. literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many, many days. and that is just unbelievably destructive. and i was the 1st to really learn to go down there in the commission process in a 4 to 6 months period. you see a market deterioration in many respects with if you're a year or 2 solitary confinement, you're going to ask the defendant for the 1st time in 2 years to, to,

to interact with other human beaks. beyond his lawyer and his jailers. it's going to be the jury that's going to decide his life. he's going to be put on the stand. and that's where he's going to speak for the 1st time to the world for 2 years. if to be shut off from the world, it's impossible. mm. 9 years an active duty and then i'm still in the reserves in 2011. the department of defense assigned me to assist on the team representing acknowledging mohammad, the, the li defendant, and the 911 case. what i can say is that the u. s. government has acknowledged that for the periods between 20032006, mister mohammed was held at,

had certain undisclosed foreign locations, black sites, otherwise known as flexes. it was what a boarded over $183.00 times. correct. i can say that there is a no most between the department of justice. i various organs of the us government to include the department of defense, the central intelligence agency, as to what types of enhanced interrogation techniques would be authorized for certain types of detainees who when they began confining pantano, they moved to having psychologists do interviews with patients, discover individual flaws, individual sources of trauma and security. and then they, they also discovered because they were demanding with arabs and muslims. a muslim

males are uniquely upset by miti and also by female fiscal contact. and then fear of don't race has always played a role in american tortures. the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments, punishments that were used on slaves and, and, and you might find that strange, but there was one area where slaves were never whipped, but you use clean techniques on them. so they didn't leave marks. and that was, if you're going to sell a slave, because a slave that had wit marks, means that they were not going to obey. and so a clean slave was pass up, got a higher price. a cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended

completely on torture. over the course of, for decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form. as a no logical machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day. so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the very beginning ah, in these kinds of cases many people in the system or the people who are imposing these conditions. believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people. and

a lot of it is about the other dis of them religiously, ethnically, nationally, culturally, it's easier than it would be to someone from your own community to do that. so in guantanamo being. secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller, whose job was to extract information. and jeffrey miller made up a cd or staff did. and also include a rack and are under the oh, with the permission of the commander their general sanchez event. can ren training sessions for the interrogators and the stafford upgrade person, or he transmitted the guantanamo techniques to the abil gradstaff.

basically, the restraints were removed and they were told to get results. the thing that became so clear is that what united states was doing was not a secret. it was hidden in plain sight. it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released, which were just, you know, the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening. that people in this country began actually talking about it what we didn't know was exactly what to do. and if i had to recommend all over the recommend exactly the right course of action that we did exactly right

for seen them all. not all of them i can differently whether one is 1600 of them. we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 30 is 1600 and they, they are the worst ones are. are the ones we haven't seen? ah, who

so and yes they were violating. i know it's our regulations and what they were doing, but they were operating within a system in which they were condition they were structured in order to violate those loss when you arrived at the wave where you aware of what had happened there. oh, almost immediately after we arrived that i would grab, we were briefed that there was misconduct, but we weren't given details. and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't. they didn't talk about it. so we, we didn't know, i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely. you know, you, you, you couldn't, you,

you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their well being rather than putting them in distress. but then we were confused, and then of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon, authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started adopting those techniques when i was station in mosul. among them were stress position, sleep deprivation of inducing hypothermia just a any, any way we can put them in distress using dogs. this is, this is a slope. so called slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say aloud and even those were already

torture to doing extreme things, rape and sodomy. and you know, the most extreme forms of physical and psychological brutality and a in a long period for the almost looks at the summer's warmly be up to still bill was then yet like i'm on the thing with donald with a little because he's nozzles to point out additional full and how it at last,

but i had on that machine with a couple of see daily mother study whereas you what i did well, that's envelope fifths. i'd love love it, but shoot labanic with fidelity. them us over when you go muted z give you a ball. suppose it with him. if they did you muffins, you to live right? oh, great on. you have to run it. that is almost ah,

you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it. and the reality, of course, is that torture like any physical skill right? requires training, requires practice. it requires an institutional setting, a built environment, really, you need to have this institutionalized bass, physical space in which you can perform torture. we want, you know, we, we want to be successful. i was against the war, i'm a liberal, i didn't vote for george bush. but i wanted to do my job well, you know, i felt like, you know, if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people, then we could and or quickly. and that would be better for, for iraq, better for,

for us my, the people who are in recent days has been a focus, a few who have betrayed our values in so many the reputation of our country. and with 6 or 7 investigations underway and a military justice system that has values, we know that those in law whoever they are, will be brought to justice in . i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards. and leadership wasn't being held accountable. i i, i was disappointed in myself and our behavior were there was terrible. so i was, i was, i was very angry when they have a great trial happened. i i,

i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick, and he asked me to act as part of the defense team. i said, well, the person that you should really talk to is, is embargo. he ran this, experimenting the 19 seventies and the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell, are those conditions that are also reproduced in embargo experiments. chip frederick, he's the man here. oh, he was the one who had the idea of putting in electrodes on, on the hood. his lawyer said, the problem now is the military want to use him in a shell trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib, not only not a single senior officer went to trial. not a single seni office. they got a recall letter of reprimand. in fact, in some cases they even got promoted the,

the offices. so it's, it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. mm. for those individuals who were directed by the us government to, to engage in any technique that i believe would price level torture or crore in human or degrading treatment. i think they lose a little bit of themselves every time they have to come in and human act. and i markers out to them as well, frankly in i don't think i noticed that until i got back. and then, you know, i tremendous guilt and i think a lot of us go up signs that were later diagnosed as p p s. d, but i don't know. i think that they have another name for now and i think it was,

it's called like moral moral failure. so to assistance is feeling that people come back with after being in war. if they feel like they think they've done things better outside of their moral compass, ah, we're still evaluating how we're gonna approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. and i don't believe that anybody has but belong. on the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as lowe's, as possible, of looking backwards ah, will look forward backward. well, forward is going to be like backward. if you don't do something about what happened

in the past, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. and for this, among other people, i fault. president obama, essentially he gave everybody, dick cheney donald rumsfeld. he gave them all a free pass george w bush. they're all going to be rehabilitated. they're all going to be treated as great statesman. one day, i mean, they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w bush. the question, of course, the world tap, dancing around or avoiding as does it work as torture work doesn't, or people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus, a terrorist organization, revolutionary organization accomplished organization, whatever organized form of collective alan chip i, b, they won't break now and the people that you pick up that are innocence.

yes. you tell them to pieces, you'll destroy them, you'll ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands as an interrogator did have intelligence. but most the vast majority of the people that i dealt with work just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up. and his raves, i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or, or confessions. it's often just being used are out of out of anger and fear. ah

right after september 11th attack, september 11th, 2001. a very well known harvard law professor islander schwartz came up with the ticking bomb theory and he said, so what happens, for example, if a tourist, as a ticking time bomb a small nuclear bomb in time square and the bomb sticking. and we only have so much time, we must torture. and then you know, the show 24 of course started every segment with that giant clock ticking away. and it kind of gave visual reality visual imprint that resonated with this discussion of ticking time bomb. in addition to the way that it framed our reception of torture on a popular level, just among the civilians in guantanamo itself, they were getting pressure from the department of defense and they have these

meetings. and in the meetings they screened the 2nd season of $24.00 and use that as a jumping off place to decide what tortures what methods they were going to propose to donald rumsfeld that they would use against the people they were holding in. guantanamo, i think, was very influential on the people that i worked with. i i know that some of the techniques that people wanted to use they had, should they had seen on television programs. for instance, i mentioned to you our leaders wanted us to mock and mock executions and also using electricity. and these were things that they had seen on television this . i mean, no, no one trained us on that, but it wasn't. that was simply from tell we're here in the united states, we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely

person, the lonely hero, the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he's absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it, is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him. and in order to save all these people, there was always this anxiety in american politics. which is that democracy kind of makes, makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do. there's a very gendered masculine s sort of notion behind this real men, torture and and, and democracy makes us sissies too. in the middle east, we have people shopping, the heads of christians, we have things that we have never seen before. i would bring back water boarding and i'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding. oh,

hey, if you're in your terrorism, people can be a pre trial detention in m. c. c to in south for 2 years. they're dirty. where would you say that the manhattan, m. c. c? is while he done in plain sight, a black sight, an american? sorry. yes. i would say it's a black side, not the sense of the black sites that p.