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hello and welcome to cross all things considered on people, started russian special military operations. ukraine is tightened. nuts. it declares it must be independent of russian energy. well, at the same time terabyte moscow might terminate wise altogether at any time. for the e u energy policy is an ideological struggle. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, jordan samuel in budapest. he's a pod cast or the guy which will be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow, we have to meet with bob and she's a political analyst and editor at you know me internet media project or a gentleman cross rules and the fact that you can jump in the time you want. and i always appreciate it. when i start out with georgia in budapest, georgia, very simple question does the, you have

a coherent energy policy because it seems like, you know, at, i don't want to use a heat metaphor, but i, well, there their hair is on fire talking about how to deal with energy during the summer and the upcoming winter, they want to cut so dependence on russia, but they're terrified as i said in my introduction that it could be shut off. i mean, what is it? go ahead. oh, that's exactly right. it's so we have on the one hand, on the, on the lie in the you, the president of the you commission was that we are going to cover off completely from russia and flora. so you and we will never be dependent on them again. and then i'd say, she turns around and uses russia of withholding energy supplied, holding back gas. and they using gas as a political weapon. so you often will do you want russian gas or don't you want russian get, you can get a straight answer. i mean,

depends on what time of day you ask the question. and then this is the, the point they have been using russia for months and months of using gas as a weapon. when the only people would be using energy as a weapon has been the young. i mean, the, you, well, they said they were the band, russian colon boards, then they say we're not going to have any russian oil info starting in december. then they close down lee and more stream to before it even started a grain closing off. one of it's a do transport, russian gas, europe. and then we have the, you know, the, the sanctions coming from canada when a compressor that was needed repairing was sent to siemens in germany, germany center, canada, canada. so no, we're not returning it because it's sanction, as of all the issues being driven from the western end of the propaganda

is the somehow in russia is using energy as a weapon. when, when did that happen? well, a demon, i mean, the real political weapon here has been sanctions. the only thing that's really changed with russian energy policy, b, b, europe, is that the russians that this the base started charging in rubles, which it makes perfect sense because of the sanctions and the, and then those swift system, russia being shut out. i mean, if they continue paying in dollars or euro's it would just be frozen in confiscated . so i mean, that's the only significant change. and we all of the uproar over north stream one . well it's, it's back in business. ok. most of the gas is flowing again. i mean, it doesn't really make any sense to me what they want to do, and there is no unity in the european union. so what is russia supposed to do? these are the, the, the, you have to deal with independent in the, in the, of the individual members of the you because the, you, as a whole,

has no coherent policy. what say you the mom? well, i think sometimes you just plays all the stuff on just a very often they just use this phrase. butcher is using a gas as a wiper. they don't even add the political. so people have these. oh, terrible images. oh wow. so you know, this is a terrible bruce to say in europe. so these people, i don't even in the way they express themselves. but you are right about the what i would collective incentives. the problem with you is that the mattress is a lot less racial. then every member they need to get you. i mean, all the most tragic, more playful. just you don't. so the,

you were taken collective. i mean, the situation with russia is just the latest example. the experts in germany, for example, at the end of the conference. you know, he says basically like a 100 percent dependence on russian guess. bulgaria is almost 100 percent event. this is in the magazine dungeon. so even if germany thinks that it can provide for itself who is thinking about go, gary, that's will make it right. the 2nd the 2nd such example is, is syria. i'm in the and that's remember all the events develop well key. there were disturbances, there are products in syria and, and do ever so instead, all either stay in your role or how been off in the

middle of the road solution. you can elect to really support the position. and we know the result, you know, the civil war, the gears so all of them were painful. you can, you connect if you know, i'm terrified voice. there's no collective though there's no solidarity here. george is in the country right now in hungry. they basically won't say it on this program bit. they went their own way. it was put it that way. george. yeah, no that that's right. last week a foreign minister, b c r. go through to moscow breaking ranks with the rest of the you and signed the agreement with russia for 700000000 metric tons of natural gas. it is a hungry needs, a gas as a well,

we're not sharing any of those gas with anyone. with a day off, the european commission issued this new dig that of demanding the all you member states reduce the gas consumption by 15 percent. and then that would be a protest from a number of states including spain and portugal, and greece saying, well, why should we come back when our gas use? this is a german problem. it is very much a part of the way the germans do this. i mean, the germans make these big decisions and then they force everyone else to live with . this is, i mean, casing point is of course the, the decision of i'm going to michael 2015 to start bringing in immigrants into europe, which everyone else was on the under of an obligation today as well. have

a peculiar understanding of solidarity. don't they have it? we do it. everybody else that solid arity? yes. that yeah, exactly. and it back, it was germany that has been very dependent on russian. yes. and then he was germany that made these extraordinary decisions like canceling the stream to at the very last moment. and so, and this is why the europeans are now saying, you know, a well, where was germany when we needed them out of the 2008 crisis. 6 and we need a bailout, and suddenly the germans say, well, sorry, we don't have the money to bail anyone out. so now is that the europeans are supposed. ready to bail germany as well. and also we had, over the last few days, we had the threatening to shut a pipeline that was supplying europe that you know, that has been agreed to. and so, you know, it again, just adds to the quandary here. i mean, russia threatened to cut off energy,

but it's ukraine. that is reckoning the cut off russian entered the customers in europe. so, i mean, where's the, where's the angered towards the ukrainians for threatening europe, energy security go ahead. doesn't make any sense. well, it makes sense, but i was logically, there you go. that's made. but it may sound in the well rules for sorry, it was what was the war just all the states opposing north jim. bon, enrolled student to bass. sad that case. these are actually get, has to go. so the grain will get russia said, oh, you know, we are wanting to continue to supply through the brain. but that just makes sense to me. now that you know no way to deal with now that there is basically this terrible confrontation within russia and ukraine.

your brain is charging some of these. i stay in the line what they call the occupied so i mean, the rockies against the wave even though it was the united states and it was the you that said the usual all rely green goals to do is this dim explained to our audience, what does the united states up into what is your be in energy? can you like me? why did they put poking their beak into something that is so important? we're not talking about, you know, the size of a cato here. we're talking about people going to be warm in the winter. you're absolutely right, united space not and you know, but this russian drummond pipeline. i mean, what we'll do, i'd say that, oh, with oppose a pipeline from canada, united states. but we, in fact,

joe biden has been doing for us, brilliant, you know, and he created all the programs in america and had to do supplies. but we never even thought about raising any questions about pipelines between mexico and tonight . these hadn't been do most of these things the right to, you know, to pronounce judgment, one rus russell government project to impose sanctions. all the companies participate in it. and before that donated states savage and worked against policy board, which was basically a me air supply and gas to read and agreed to do well. in fact, part of the problem, the reason why i read crisis is going to be a voice if they had the rock. well, it would be so, but it was the you, the, your commission and great, they stand tonight states that basically did everything will be solid. the project

never comes to the door. but i guess my question is, when rhetorical in the united states have to do with european energy security? well, it's all about money. they want them to buy american energy when you know is being fossil fuels are being attacked in the us. so there's only one outcome here, a higher, right, so the europeans. but to get up and cheat russian energy and paper very expensive gulf in american indian. wow, that's a brilliant move business. go ahead. it is, of course, it makes the europeans very uncompetitive. i mean, you're already has problems with keeping up with east asia, but now the one thing that they had which was very reliable source of energy for now they've given that up and they've done it on the american pressure. they call they can you grade as come under american pressures, the americans who press the ukraine membership in the americans continue to provoke

them to provoke and basically any of your bill just a little hard. right. right. anyone really say, ah, ah, a school, if you look on the initial be 1 o'clock, not to get a can use to put a new one who did or change,

but you also to was done a what i see the student a bit. welcome back to cross. were all things are considered? i'm peter bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some realtors. ah, we will go back to d. m a here it in moscow from centrally. when we look at this, a conflict in ukraine, at least for the west, um they, they won't say it out loud, but you know, it's not about freedom. it's not about the mob not about territorial. that's all,

that's what we keep hearing on the airways. but it's really about energy here and not fossil fuel energy. it's all about green energy. and ukraine is being used as a segue to push the transition. this is something that, you know, this is a gleeful about it. they're gleeful about because they don't have to bring it to their people and vote on it. they'll say it just because you know, rules based order and all of this type of stuff here. but at the same time, and this is what i need to explain, they're opening up whole mines again and we'll make natural gas, maybe isn't so dirty here. i mean, what are their priorities here? because if they on one hand, you know, it's, you know, territorial integrity. on the other hand, it's agree new deal. but they keep interweaving in clashing with each other and they can't make up their mind. what is their priority thema? well, i have, i would say not the privilege but the duty to read the warning german press. i'm just read it so we don't have to thank you this side. you know,

they the right that 62 percent of the guns for the government's advice. and now they watch themselves a few times a week and a for alissa. ok. 162 percent of people already believe these crap. and you know, the way that the government is dealing with people in terms of why you have to read, you know that the temperature in your bottle, you have to watch read. i mean, these people, it use russian channel story period. but we know what he told you the difference between authoritarian and to put it there in the she's a gm say ok, don't publish guarantee. just on the present the 20 day of the same. same house with watch yourself, which theatre waste you could go to which books you should read, you know how to educate your children. so in this situation,

during our walks su with darien state, they tell their people car wash. what is wood for their house? there is a very, very strange theory now that washing machine makes is bad for you. right? and it's just the plain. and the problem with the italian states is that they use ideology against mass against mathematics. i mean, in gear force, which is a huge or very what management model their best interest, robert. all the handle on the he just gave a mathematical analysis or what's going on that germany has 40 median ca hold $20000000.00 of them heated by guess rational gas, it cost 455 percent. how are going to do without ok? so this is a mathematical question. then i know what the answer, what ran it. worse for short periods of time, you know, don't use your car,

don't use your i don't know what else i can wait. i mean, it smacks all the sudden, even worse. well, i mean it, george, i mean a, is this going back to the 1840s? i mean, i'm trying to understand what's going on with the world is a super competitive police. but and, and then we look at the europeans, you know, i mean, what is it, you know, pragmatism isn't ideology. can they marry the 2? it seems that they, they're, they're, they're, they're pushing things that are just diametrically opposed to each other. and the result is cold and lack of productivity and you know, the world passes them by in some kind of back water. and this is all done intentionally. go ahead. yes, it is a short reason. there's been the seamless transition from lee cove is area now to the the energy steering. i mean, it's just you,

you don't even notice it. so we was screaming at the anti back says the non mosque, whereas the people who were protesting against the lock down, you know, they were terrible people because they refused to express social solidarity. they were entirely selfish, and we were supposed to hate them. so now we're rapidly going to be moving into a new era with who don't want to share out the energy. i mean, i'm going to really, in the process, you know, they don't want to share out the gas, and they can design their own deals with russia. and so this is now the and that everyone who is going to be taking showers of a too long, you know, they're going to be, i guess that's a new thing. shower shaming is that, i mean, exactly, you know, people, you know what they cost, you know, more than once a month. so, you know, if you ever now on the, going to be a fall in be insufficiently for expressing solidarity. and of course,

will be put in this, this isn't the how the, you know, this as this kind of this total area ideology and it was no one ever really for the barrel with it is the same. no one really kind of a, you know, to the, from the mental questions about a mental question to what end is all this? why are we making the sacrifice? no, you just don't get a shop and just get with the program or else. you know, i like to reapply because they can shop too long in the shower. we had 0 with 0 cove and now we have 0 fossil fuel. ok. niema. let me go to you. i mean, usually when these unusual and very strident on demands of people, it's during a momentary crisis. ok moment case. you know, what i mean by that is that, you know,

when the crisis will come to an end and you go back to not, this is completely open ended. you start saving 15. you're, you're told to save 50 percent on energy towards what end. i mean it will that make the situation better? how a li alleviated they don't have any answers. there's no, there's no exit from this. it just seems it's going to be a, came latoria. they're going to me and then 40 percent and 60 percent. and the results will be the same. i don't understand what, what they're driving at what their goal is. go ahead, my lease. i'm sorry, ease. i want to go to the area. i mean, if i use rights, something like this. ok, our people are terrified about get, you know, just 19 percent. so since inside their own, the suite, while people with russia have been through so many difficult, just them much more life sustainable. so, i mean, this is difficult that they get it looked at. amy is so strong and you mean i can

make any sacrifice. that means that you should be made in 2nd crisis. ok. 15 percent less. today's going to percent less. the moral. don't ask why? well, if you asked us why it was a future, you know, if you asked us, why did we support when you greenwich started before being in 2014? don't expect us from austin for these are the people, you know, we have to see places change. so when a responsive of these people did, they didn't, they're bad. so in, under only one of their old age and nice, nice, nice groups. you know, i don't ask any questions that ask a question and you know, via and also what is very important that there is, you always require crisis. and 2nd, at that it is, you always intimidate, you will, old guy for point. there will be an alignment. if you don't listen to us and

if you don't course with all the water line, it will collapse. you know, so basically let me remind you how people are basically broaden germans into into was you said that we have not enough space off. let us wrong, if we don't expand into years, we're all going to die from. that was a lie because germans on a much more energy off of the world, war 2, created a sustainable economy which fed not only them, but a segue is perfectly the last question i have for george here, you're right. we have the german economic miracle because there was cheap soviet then that later, russian gas. so, george, you know, on a global scale here, the global south is saying, you know, the europeans got really rich because they have access to very cheap fossil fuels, primarily oil and gas. so now they're looking, they're stepping up and say,

our turn we would like that energy to do exactly what the europeans had and what they are they willing to give up? but we'll make it. we'll stand in line. we'll take it. that's exactly what's happening. yes, yes, but the strange thing is that the europeans and the extent the americans are weighted to an e. ology that is propagated by the world economic forum and, and they were and it's not entirely clear what the all is other than they want to reduce the population of the world. i mean, i back their agenda and green energy somehow sold in with that as gender as was the, the fear of pandemic. and you know, a people having children or anything like that. so it's kind of, it's a part of the same things. are they using this crisis of ukraine,

essentially to cause all use the use or the move to the renewable? they know perfectly well there is no way in the world that germany can continue to be an economic out relying on solar panels and, and when they're pushing it. and you have to think that based on how don't want europe in the united states to be got to the engine will grow. i mean, they want to continue to be prosperous themselves. they don't really want to extend this barrett, they do it. it seems, you know, the europeans want to set an example for the world. that's something that we see here. and, you know, you know, eventually, you know, they'll be carbon changing in this country uses too much higher. but you know, that, that'll be, you know, it will be another reason for nato or to be, are they think they're great to be ok. but i mean, but it doesn't work logically because then they become less competitive. they become already come more irrelevant. and so everyone,

the learning i think that will be don't do what drives you with the grow. go ahead in the last 30 seconds. well, what didn't get figured, magazines already started or in europe. esteem is all the groups not only about which are concerned about it, but also about energy crisis. so they're all extreme. it's now people out and there was one person who said that basically by these already see europe is destroying european main capitalism that was sent. yeah, i'm just going to chill. ah, so i look at, i'm not saying it on my own, but as i said, it would be go magazine. this is all it's steve. this is always seem to back the whole conspiracy theories. right, well what we'll have is will, and you're at least in the winter coming up, we'll have cold capitalism. ok. see how that feels? ok, go out. ok. i'm watching themselves or digging further in to their problems. it's

extraordinary to witness gentlemen. that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in budapest and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers from watching us. here are the remember process rules. ah ah, today i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. foreign companies quitting russia, design 21. thank you. this client atm card. so blanton bangs, disconnected from the international payment system. functional hoppey, jermel, donna and euro exchange rates. follow up when i check up on a couple more folks. so clark would know what the committee met, that he woke up the pilgrim. that is the correct. can you see what i'm not sure. see him, a jail, a couple of months, volume and russian business overcome this song. see me. i bought it to the nazi to

huddle. she's tremendously just me don't pros voice, bullshit, national productive. not just 0 dash a miracle. what i see for themselves. but when you come, when you with, before you go, then you know, i mean why, for the student out, but i, she's appraisal by the look. i know you the cost to get the group when you, when you're speaking with dr. newson who please is supposed to look for her delusion. look a little bit, you know, the motion with a yes to see out these days because the answer to an engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

ah, with, with russia, the republic of the congo stressed their resistance to block meal in foreign affairs. that is the message coming after russia's top diplomat lands in the country on the 2nd leg of his african tour. allows western countries apparently attempt to pressure the arab league, demanding its members break ties with russian. foreign minister lever off also receives a warm welcome for more than 20 representatives. all the organisation restricting the flow russian energy giant gas problem says it's taking another gas turbine offline for me.