yet again, if it were a tear and in mind moscow, well to discuss that and now joined by a son dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. dirani. thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome, welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services. in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witness there, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here western analyst comparing the current operation, the current ration operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan and some of them i think, predicting that the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations. but of honda son, any who korean i can take off a couple. anyone coming to a fun is fun,

whether the service or the americans, our neighborhood. we used to call it sure to use it. like straightforward one score ukraine, the strict depth of russia. you called it the near abroad people, dakota, you know, the or do satellite dish lou fellow brought. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance against gu, super bus trowbridge unit that terminal america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years. we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane. understandably, if with this nettle, the note was like stores, it was bad enough that has come there for what this is now the. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become

a member of nettle then contradict the guide because because then it is a member of their lives at least under any as far as moscow can tell, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. now, pakistan, if i remember back than i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this reason. just as just one difference . one could go in ukraine and know that no to increase every, as we have seen, cannot physically intervene. but if the earth, if it was, i'm a member, then i don't think her tricia could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth for independence feed for

a girl. but she has to offer, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buffer zones on neutral stage is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their kish, they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above all your lunch leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. they don't need, let's say this record security is on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees,

about humanity graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken, or children years ish, water next door? sure, and sure if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief sauce. no man learns by horse. what do they mean if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell to tell you about bikes, we need it very badly in the neighborhood, or least in sage, kashmir, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement. that is that very heavily here is not only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact mosque was in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and it's, i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer zone against india that led to your predecessors to,

you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an alternative, frankly. you she, if her son before that it was considered by the british as a buffet against the soviet empire. in our case and became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so there isn't books. and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, $6571.00. and i'm a veteran, a book you in a junior. so we knew that gobble once every focus suddenly showing here to warn the east because and we, we didn't have to keep anyone or the west because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it. now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd of cobbled, it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is

a horse trade countries. so the other said like america elected through ship that so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79 of us, not yet an intelligence, but the thing that was heard about that there was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick indian. they used to old rope, and now the soviet and india for a little bit about the risk for that event. that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can in order to get yourself out of the jaws of the net, correct? or is you put it, or you need it, packed with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over

a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is know the point to some people i own going to look and always us than what was the option at that time and said in the 79 and whatever place one page years. and ultimately, that border becomes to go at least from a foreign fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if there was a price we paid, it had to pay it because in this particular with that claim, the rest of the world was, it was saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable resistance and bug is done virtually we were all or not, or hardly anyone or said will come and say, now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something covertly so 20 years if you have who of which took their team . and i did the process now and can see a finance then. as again,

independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. you can tell them people, i'm, if countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. they're still type of price countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you are under somebody's food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree, issue all was more complex. you snorted the scene offered the people that you do

resistor room to go, that we will not to become record you love understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation, william firnbach lation, they have all of this collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very on their beat that the back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money. no, the developer dear. these people are in trouble. so they'll, kirsty americans bought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no, we do get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected

from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it outsource that security janae then the americans, they expected the west to come to their defenses and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a myth that re cooperated with the americans. yes. when the service will dear, dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. the list and started with baggage any i say my criticism. similarly in case of her father, son, we may have given you some sort of a notable insurance about certain things deep don't we were not cooperating with the medical people and then you worked then she'd double game and sean, what? well, it was a compulsion. we had to do some t so that the italian mand remain viable, that the, but they will throw them out to that is how these games are played. no country

plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left i. e and ray, one can talk about, you know, a wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen. and now you can only get that type of sport. nothing as that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if they detect took place. if the moscow tech you remember, we will not be able to do it. like they could not deletion of any the cook. you better leave because we're leaving. otherwise, you'll be late show you saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o chose it. look at some of the go speech,

some exceptions to this rule when the americans were true to that word, for example, that with the israel israel, it could not sit away without american support. that we should know. it may be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic dep ds in the united states. but is that the only country that there is a free, lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will come, we have learned it or not. after the, when the, who 71 war structured with or 65 war and 71 war. and that they do so quarterly lay, sporty back, and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up fresh. good to go show mr. de runner. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments statement. ah, mm

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ah, ah ah hell come back to wells far as with a son to run a former director general of pakistan inter services intelligence. mister durand, you wrote recently that can't, that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as

insecurities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but the relative security, if not for all down, at least for let's say some configuration, some group of of countries in the region. yes, sure. you're right. thank you. what shane good did is no such thing as absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends? who are you any, was you do try to work auction, for example, in our case, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is to get the americans out because they're be considered to be the mentor, not the indians. british. oh, to run mending fences with them because there are some problems. tokyo with china,

they're always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, our people at that time g, creating bridges with moscow. i was there too. so trace, because we all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again were 4 or 5. that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interest will be in america, will there be with on that particular thing for the cooperative be for chicago. my still got no, there is another configuration in which no renewal, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i nice getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese now have a question. we are all fairly, but we can also be helpful to in some extent,

but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac turkey what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space turkey human after it a shot on the production plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to fall or to look, but of others mailer it as may be. so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that i know. elaine says, i made some thanks. dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we are drawn take on rashana will report full word stick small little sheet cream. yeah. they are taken away. so that what, what is it, because of that, we must war this whole piecemeal strategy, shalumi take place,

some people call it will little work, little certain things happen and there's no one rich because the reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because america and made a strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they're frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence, in terms of other countries defending their national interests? bitterness is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. it girl tru tv, the nuclear, the non conventional,

even sub convention when we see you know, guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial immediately that, well, unless you have that type of deterrence, you vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our but everyone knows where the ashley seizes read it as well. but we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get panicky. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no option. but yes, there are certain says is the nuclear data, for example, in our case, can only see was from nuclear brachman. this is not reuse, but we're affected. we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can perfect sometimes takes that because of these things to me when become more insecure because of the money that we spend because the server because of some

people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that are so it will be no come, lead the absolute do, made it to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs and i must, under any just mentioned nuclear deterrent and deterrence. or if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been astray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one saw the thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation. is it a, bu,

is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistan? is to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians or to be used against the russians. do you think duke resolution of ukraine? yeah. took place because of little dea search for it or the controller was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on that or wish border one of the condition under which you couldn't became free to give up a new coverage under the 2 reticle consumption that there were weapons. of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure that was what didn't clear a bunch can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything,

no they cannot send nuclear weapons, we call that as a balloon dimension. no one, even in the red shoes, will agree with there. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that, that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear puts they can use to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came, the other 2 or 3 years, the old program was already completed. they start know, the deal. i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions,

they are true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks in a few weeks and i suppose some sort of a will take my assessment into that it cannot go on like of other districts. there are 2 high i want to ask you about the style of war fighting. because if you're switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker respondent. then siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. the recall and swiss cheese style, when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in heavily populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to you know,

patch. i'm the civilians, and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and they're also, i assume a person who dealt with military matter is a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and air clear effort to turn the brush again and chip or i and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least. and russia is a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given credit for. this is the most potent factor or your ribbon that any country hash. and that is weird. america's real superiority little means you could call the narrative the control the media,

even after 20 years. you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st of media. it has it in certain, but prowess, and kind of b realty, and dick and drum circles around others. we can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe and in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them, the most potent will they do it the best no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare with 3rd so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the recent rear of the hair, i'm talking about that, talked about the other stance which can be breached. but this one is, it is

a good because it is in placed in people's minds. so in that case they have done it is holy people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity, think going in one direction, you know, it is artificiality. there is not automatic people, not robert reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being a darker student. there are some other people who might come to that place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from the mag. this is not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality do manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always

stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. by going to understand that because we suffer from good as the best of our 1st, we cannot put that right. it is right, but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic dept and the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowler good meant that he went somewhere late. can you, cassandra, is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or no, where do you? and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often lately people in pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for beast. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into a model of cooperation,

a final project that will be the so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no site could afford to lose. and that is where you start doing good discontinued formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it there on his formula. we have to live in there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. thank you very much. so it was nice to be it and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on well, the part ah with mm. blue

to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race group is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk ah

with as you cranes are a lot less shelling of the don. yes, capital continues russian lead forces. the active a band anti personnel mines found in abundance in the city center. after saturday, the russia invite the international organizations to pro been elected, ukrainian pride on don as detention facilities which left 50 of spiders that and $73.00 wounded pensions rise in the taiwan strait as us. how speaker nancy pelosi starts her for of asia with a stop scheduled for ty pay, despite multiple warning from china and to the stories that shape the weak brush is foreign minister received.