if authority and in mind moscow, well to discuss that and now joined by a son dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. dirani. thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome, welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witnessed there, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here. western analyst comparing the current operation to current ration operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan, and some of them, i think, predicting that the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations. but of harness on a new cream. i can think of a couple. anyone coming to a fun is fun. whether the service show the americans,

our neighborhood. we used to call it sure to use it like straight forward once or you cleaned the strategic dip of russia. you called the nero brought people dakota, you know, the or do satellite mission who fell abroad. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance, i guess, go super bus trowbridge unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if with this nettle, the note was next door's, it was bad enough that he does come there for, but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become i'm

a bit of nettle. then i contradict the guide because because that it is a member of their lives, at least under any, as far as moscow's consent, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. now pakistan, if i remember back that, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this is just one difference. one good, good grade, and know that no 2 countries as we have seen, cannot physically. but if the earth, if he attended summer member, then i don't think the treasure could have related. but all the differences and similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about yours security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth independent stage photograph, but see

a steel for, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about those 2. well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral stage is almost an affront. they always claim that smaller countries, i'm entitled to their own right in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have a personalized leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. you don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees,

about humanity. grace is about is not because the water is broken out, was broken, actually is ish, water next door, sir. and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand the relief source, no man learns buffers. what do they mean? so if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you, but we need it very badly. the neighborhood, or least, and sage kashmir, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement that is that really heavy here is short only because of people in the territory. but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact, moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and if i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india, that lat your predecessors to,

you know, support the more jacket in against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an opportunity, frankly, you hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case had became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so there isn't books. and there is, whenever we were given was india, 6571. and i'm over to no book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble once every bogus, suddenly sure to warn the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal, or the furnace 3rd gobbled it. would become, you know, the so called black borders,

because there is a horse trade country. sure. the other said, lake america elected through ship that so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in the 7th night, i was not here to leave early just but the thing that was brought my heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick in the on the east told road. and now the soviet and india for a little bit about the west for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the job of the nat kreckchar is you put it, or you made a pact with an american switch later led to your participation, pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over

a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is not the point to some people look and always us and what was the option at that time and said in the 79 and whatever play shouldn't be it. yes. and ultimately, that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price, you will be to take to pay it because in this particular with their claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable, and the resistance and by august and virtually we were all or not, or hardly anyone or said will come and say, now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something covertly so 20 years if you have 2 of which took their team. and i did the process now and can see a finance then. as again,

independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. you can tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. they're still type of price countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you are under somebody's food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree, issue all was more complex. you snorted the scene offered to compare people that we

are who resisted. we want to go that we will not to become record of understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation will, you won't population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very unhappy that they have gone back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble, so they really curse. the americans bought us more than the more than anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no, we do get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans, because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it

security to neither or thought that it outdoors, that security janae then the americans, they expected the west to come to their advances and now they are being left one on one with the might of the, of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans? yes. when the service will there do cooperated of the snake game 2 years later. the list and started with baggage any or say by british as a. similarly in case of her father, son, you may have given you some sort of a notable insurance about certain things deep. don't revert, not cooperating with the medical people. and then you worked then she'd double game . and sean, what? when it was a compulsion, we had to do some t so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will to them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her,

if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left a ian ray, one can talk about, you know, a wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport. nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, day to day to place. if you must go deck, you remember we will not be able to eat leg, they could not delicious plenty the cook, you better leave because we're living, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o chose this. look at some of the goals,

teach some exceptions to this role when the americans were true to that way. for example, that with israel, israel did not set away without american support, that we should know it will be very powerful. but ultimately, the strategic debt gets in the united states. but is that the only country that there is a free, lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not, well after the other than the $71.00 war started with or 65 or 71 war at that day, the so called the last 40 back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up fresh, good, mr. there. and then we have to take a very short break right now we'll, we'll be back in just a few moments stationed ah

for, ah, the eastern is absolutely co with little thing with your hood. and yet they have been all looking for some of the st. peter wouldn't end up with shock cognitively jelly. i'm not sure somebody who columbus from stuff done with the with to deal with with a you were in love with

it was up here at the ball which can you with a sort of a welcome back to wells. far as with aside to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. jerone, you wrote recently that can any country or any big country would react to

their security parameters altura or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as was insecurities like the dates in the eye of the beholder . it's always relative depending on many conditions. so do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security but relative security. if not for all down, at least for let's say, some are configuration, some group of, of countries in the region. you're sure you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no such thing. the absolute quality there. submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends' word, your neighbors? you do try to workshop for example, you marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is to get the americans out because there,

if you considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to your on mending fences with them because there are some problem, turkey and the journey to always good problems. i am a beneficiary of, you know, people are that g creating bridges from moscow. i was there to so trace because you all believe that these 45 countries are used to you and call them again will follow that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interest will be at america, will there be were on that particular thing to the cooperative we 1st got my still got. now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last 40 years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and right sheesh and church i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now, question, we are all friends,

but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if the owner student centrally share your chicago. celiac turkey what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it a shot on the election plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego or look, but of others mailer, irritant. maybe. so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that i know alliances on bid. some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we are drawn pecan, rashana will report full. were those 2 small little sheet cream? yeah, they are taken away. so the, what, what is it because of their,

that we must war this whole piecemeal strategy shall i'm, you take to some people call it will little work, little certain things happen and there's no one rich because the reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because america's and made a strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence. that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with mean to the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interest data? this is alyssa, do so called full spectrum at all levels. dick girl ctv the nuclear,

the non conventional even sub convention. when we see, you know, guerrillas and so on, so forth, we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of different you vulnerable country like canada shoes. we have plenty of our but everyone knows where the actually seizes read it as well, right? but you only have to say no more dollars. it will all be done in rounds or rules or you're then get panic. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. there is like no option. but yes, there are certain this is, is the nuclear data. for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear blackman. this is not to reuse, but mirror that we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can affect it. sometime one thinks that because of these feed me when become

more insecure because of the money, the dish burger, the server because of some people you know, said group countries a layer lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no complete the absolute or do made it will it? you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius flex. now listen to running and just mentioned nuclear deterrent. and the turns, and if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this

year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to, is that us treasure do you think that this comparison between, you know, americans looking away when they needed pakistan is to americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to be used against the russians . do you think do creation of ukraine? yeah. took place because of the a search for the controller was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on that or wish more one of the condition and i wish you could and became free. you take to give up a nuclear weapons under the 2 radical cans. assumption that we had awarded weber's, of course, i suppose they would have a little more us confidence in their ability to defend. oh, there it is. so that was sure that was what didn't clearance can do. in this

particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no, they cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered dementia. no one, even in the united states will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use their administered that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear weapons. they grew used to do that. in our case, we heard a lot of about didn't use it that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came little 2 or 3 years, the whole program was already completed. this 3rd no. the hell, i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union. the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who well we in,

nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but you know, we can make some assumptions. they are true true. i agree. omit if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like a lot of the sticks are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting . because if your switch on cnn, you even get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. they recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas as to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in heavily

populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians. and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and they're also, i assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and air clear effort to turn the rush again into a pariah and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent factor, or you know, the example that any country hash and that is weird,

america's real superiority. little means you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years. you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough furnished on the street to media. the street has been certain but prowess and credibility and the drum circle around if others could influence and military recall of psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turnaround and the people there in the western europe and in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them, the most potent will, the boot, the best. no one else we heard. very, very good. we can't even compare research so so. so some of the, you know, campaigns launched augustine from neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a very big weakness. but the real sent weird of the have i'm talking about that

talked about the other stance which can be reached. but this one is very difficult because it is entrenched in people's minds. so in that case they have done, it is wholly people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity, think going in one direction, you know, deserve history. it is not automatic. people not trouble reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done . so i could see that there's been darker still. there are some other people who might come to that list. but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from them. but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality do manifest itself. i mean,

it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct, you know, it's broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. by going to understand that because we've suffered from the best of our food, we cannot put that later today. but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic dep till the buffers and the eucharist. it is such a bold argument that he went somewhere, like henry kissinger is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or no, but you. and he said under the circumstances the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often live lead people in by new york pakistan. good, do believe we do think that somebody has to be chartered for beast. we've come to

the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a 5 year project, that would be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no said could afford to reduce and that is really started doing. it discusses formula. there are couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it the run is formula. we have to leave it there, but i'm greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. i need food. thank you very much. so it was nice to be and thank you for watching hope to sir again, next week on well, the part, ah, with me

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a heartbeat donations for bit young donia. kate, i'm not in the the and the 2nd world war i think 2 millions of people during the conflict the balance of power was held by the leaders of 3 nations. the united kingdom, the united states and the ussr. ah march the.