that their military threats lost credibility. they are trying to use israel with assassinated assassinations, sabotage attacks, as well as cyber attacks and so on, so forth. in order to, you know, keep military threats, not the military, but security threats alive and pressure to iran into giving in to their demands in the vienna talks. well, of course iran is not been effective, iran has done reciprocal action in all these cases, including when the assassinated, like the fact result according to is really media, not the iranian officials, the top of military official of israel. they called him the r israel's, the father of israel's aerospace program. abby har even was killed in the occupied territories, according to the israel lease. he has experienced a painful death after the big attack. the times are euros nuclear facility,

3 months later, their largest military complex that produces multiple different kinds of ballistic massage for carrying w m. d, 's and satellites, and so on, so forth. when to, to where and blasted and the list goes on and on and on. so it's our tit for tat, and there is only one difference here. if fall, iran always believe that israel is the small enemy that doesn't need that much attention to be under folk in the focus of iran because they're resistant from could have dismantled it or attack that a threat to we're on. we really appreciate having you on the program to run based foreign policy. analysts, sad must offer caution. thanks for joining us on the program. that's all for this. our stay tuned for more in just about 30 minutes.

oh, a with me one welcome to worlds apart. when the americans needed pakistan support than driving the soviets out of afghanistan, they quietly looted the other way to allow islam of us to put the finishing touches to nuclear bomb. fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are at loggerheads yet again, this time in the ukraine who's president earlier this year. and now he's country

intention to develop again, it's new player and military capability. what the americans look away yet again, if it's worth to undermine moscow? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by assad. dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. jeremy, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you then come welcome. now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witness that followed the so we pull out from afghanistan when he now hear weston analyst compared the current operation to current russian operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan and some of them, i think, predicting the consequences will be the same. that threshold will be buried as a state in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions that many bedrooms between brilliancy

since but i have found a son and he who crane? i can think of a couple anyone coming to find his son, whether the service or the americans, our neighborhood. we used to call it strategic, tipped leg, straightforward, one score ukraine, the strictly depth of russia. you called it the near abroad because you know, the satellite nation who fell abroad, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance against go super bus trowbridge unit that payment america, 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if witnessed, nettle. the net was next to us. it was bad enough that had,

has gone that far. but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become a member of nettle then contradict the negative because because then it is a member of the alliance. and this inter, any, as far as mosque is concerned, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. now, pakistan, if i remember back than i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for now. this is just one difference. one could good ukraine and other notebook entries have, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if the earth, if it was i'm a member, then i don't think her tricia could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me,

concern about your security parameters, independent of no conscious commonwealth, 20 burnett street photograph, but she has to your for, i mean, these things are creature so that we will sugar in. i'll tell you about as to what can i actually ask about that, because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buffer zones on neutral stage is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own right in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have a portfolio lunch leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. you don't need, let's say this record security is on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are

countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken out so many years. it's war next door, sir. and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief sauce. no man learns buffers. what do they mean to if you don't to you? if you are, if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you about buying stuff. we need it very badly over the neighborhood on the eastern sage, kashmir with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement that is that really heavy here is short only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact mosque was

in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and if i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an alternative. frankly, you shoot off hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case had became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so there isn't books. and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, $6571.00. and i remember to no book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble wants every bogus, certainly, surely toward the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it now,

the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd of cobbled, it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is a horse trade countries show. the other said like america elected to ship that so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in late the 7th night, i was not here to leave early just but the thing that was heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick in the, on the east told road, and now the soviet and the india for a little bit about the west for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the job of the nav, kreckchar, if you put it on, you made a pact with an american switch later led to your participation,

pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile, judicious nor the board to some people? i look and always us and what was the option at that time and said in the 79 and whatever, push one ph. yes. and ultimately that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military in this particular case, 20 years. oh. so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price will be to take to pay it because in this particular with their claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable, and the resistance. and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or, or said will come and see it. now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something or covertly?

so 20 years, if you have who have withstood their t n a in the process now and can see a final then as again independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. $20000000.00 dash the type of price. countries paying for freed up. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or they're freeing the west. but i think this station is far

more complex than this. yes, i agree. issue all was more complex. you snorted deseeno fun. good. compared people near to yoga resistor room to go that we will not become record of understand for example, usually the so gordon lation will yeah. one population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time. and now the big america they have, and they are very unhappy that they have gone back, because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for the tolliver. dear. these people are in trouble. so they look at us, the americans bought us more than the more than anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans,

because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it outdoors, that secure geneva in the americans. they expected the west to come to their defences. and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the show ritual there do cooperative thus they came 2 years later. the list and heard started with been and bikers, then you say my british as a similarly in case of a father son, we may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things deep don't we were not cooperating with the medical people and then you wrote it and they should double game. and sean, what? well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable. that

the one day we'll talk about, that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left eye and ray, one can talk about, you know, on over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity he knew what was going to help, and now you can only get that type of support and nothing else that the americans did not. you would tell them in dang. if they did, it took place. if it must go tech, you the members, we locked me were good treat lake, they could not. della should have money. the cook, you better leave because we are leaving. otherwise, you will be late show you saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as

much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o choices look at some of the gulf states. so there's some exceptions to this role when the americans were true to their worth, for example, that with israel, israel did not sit away without american support. that we should know. it would be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic debt. this in united states. but is that the only country that there is a free, lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not. oh, after the oh, when the shoes, 71 war structured with or 65 war and 71 war at that day, the so called the laser quarterback, they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look our frisco tuition. mr. director, we have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments statement. ah

ah, ah hell come back to where the fire is with a son to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that i can't the, any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as insecurity is like the dates in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security,

but relative security? if not for all done at least for let's say, some are configuration, some group of, of countries in the region. you're sure you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no such thing. the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you, friends, world, your neighbors? you do try to workshop for example, you marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is to get the americans out because then we considered to be the mentor, not the indians. traditional to get on mended fences with them because there are some problem the key and the journey to always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, people are that g creating bridges with moscow. i was there to so trace

because you all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again will follow that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take who, somewhere as long as those common interest will be in america, will there be were on that particular things as a cooperative. we 1st got my still got. now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celia perky, what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space turkey human after it

a shot on the ration plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look, but of others mailer, irritant. maybe so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that i know alliances on it. so thanks steve. me work very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we are all will take on rashana will report full will stick small little sheet cream. yeah. they are taken away, so the what, what is it because of their, that we must reward. this is called piecemeal strategy. so let me take to some people call it little work, little certain things happen. and there's no one because the action is so costly. so hazardous, well, let me ask you about that because america and made

a strategy are, for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american, our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess what do you think this russian operational with me into the power of american deterrence, in terms of other countries defending their national interest, bitterness is unless we do so called full spectrum at all levels. dick girl should be the, the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of talent you vulnerable good, really cannot choose,

may have plenty of our. but everyone knows, we're the actually says is read it as well. but we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules of your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute earliest like no up . but yes, there are certain this is, is the nucleus data. this, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear blackman. this is not to reuse. but mirror that we have, that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can protect someone thinks that because of these things to me when become more insecure because of the money that was burdened, go to the server because of some people you know, so grew countries a layer lane up against you. so that is the answer to so there will be no complete or absolute or to move the toilet. you just keep working in this direction

. you try to cover your radius flex. now listen to running and just mentioned nuclear deterrent. and the turns, and if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to uh, the engine, pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation. is it a, bu, is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistan is to americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians

to be used against the russians? do you think do career sure for you, chris? yeah. took place because of all the research for the control was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on that which border one of the condition under which you can and became free. you take to give up a nuclear weapons under the 2 radical cans assumption that we're to water weber's, of course, i suppose they would have a little more us confidence indeed are willing to defend, although it is so that was true. that is what didn't clear a punch can do. in this particular case. workers may have wished that they cannot do anything. no. we cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered dementia. no one, even in the united church will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that that part of that is gone. if they look the other

way, you can develop nuclear weapons, they grew used to do that. in our case, we had a leper for about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came with a 2 or 3 years, the old program was already completed. the start? no. the hell. i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the american school. well, we in, nobody knows, for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions, they are true true. i agree omit if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would meet to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now 4 or 5 weeks in a few weeks and i suppose some sort of

a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like a one is that the sticks are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting, because if you're switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears we in rush and i as a worker, respondent and siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. they we call it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas. next to government controllers, specifically because the russians were objecting to use the, the use of heavy artillery in the heavily populated areas which for along the flight and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians are, as i don't want you to take sides. but i wanna sort of asked for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and there also, i assume

a person who dealt with military matter is a lot, how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive, an air clear effort to turn the brush again and chip or i and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that. at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given credit for. this is the most potent victor, or, you know, with that any country hash. and that is weird, america's real superiority. little means you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years, you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st of media . this fit has it in certain, but promise and credibility. and they can drum circles around to others. people

they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them. the most potent good did good the best no one else we heard. very, very good. we can't even compare research so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the real stance we're at the have, i'm talking about the talked about the other stance which can be reached. but this one is very difficult because it is entrenched in people's minds. so in that case they have and it is only people like me, you know, i don't want to, you know,

bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity, think going in one direction, you know, it is out of history. it is not automatic. people, not robert reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american. we are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being a darker street. there are some other people who might come to their place, but most of the people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag this but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself. because it's always stronger than any in a brilliant mind by going to understand that because we suffer from good as the best of our 1st, we cannot put relatives, right. but just before you conclude,

because i think the subject was more about to the strategic deb tell the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowler good night that he went somewhere late. and cassandra is not a sympathetic for directions or for us, or now where do you? and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often lately people in by noon pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for bees. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project, that would be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which said couldn't afford boost. that is really starting to get discontinued

formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it there on is formula we have to live in there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. i need food. thank you very much. saunders nice to be and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on wells apart. ah, with mm ah, russian authorities investigate a drone bombing that struck the headquarters of the black sea fleet in the crimean city upset by stop with .