and in mind, moscow will to discuss that. and now in joined by a son dirani, former director general of pakistan's into services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome, welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligent services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witness there, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan when he now here western analyst comparing the current operation to current ration operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan and some of them, i think, predicting that the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? there are many parallels between various situations, but of honda son any who korean, i can think of a couple. anyone coming to a fun is fun. whether the service show the american sh,

our neighborhood. we used to call it should reject it. like straight forward one score ukraine, the strategic depth of russia. you called the near abroad people, dakota, you know, they'll go to late mission who fellow brought, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance agrees to super bus trowbridge unit, their terminal america could be years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen in 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if it is natural that note was next to us. it was bad enough that it has come there for it, but this is not the way. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become a member of nettle,

then contradict the guides because because then it is a member of their lives. this under any, as far as moscow's consent, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. now, pakistan, if i remember back then, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for those reasons. just as just one difference. one could go in ukraine and know that no to increase every, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. but if the earth, if it was i'm a member than i don't think a treasure collegiate, but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth, wendy bennett, stage photograph,

but she has to offer, i mean, these things are creatures. so that will sugar in. i'll tell you about us too. well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buffer zones on neutral stage is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they couldn't afford to talk about it. for example, if you have a portfolio lunch leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. they don't need, let's say this record security is on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees,

about many 10 graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken, or children years ish? water next door, sir. and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand the relief source, no man learns because what do they mean? so if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell to tell you about buying stuff, we need it very badly over the neighborhood, or least, and sage kashmir, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement. that is, that very heavily here is not only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's insensitivity to pakistan's security concerns. and if i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer zone against india, that latter your predecessors to,

you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think the ocean are going to do frankly you she, if her son, before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire in our case, it became, you know, a buffer against the northern shed, but it also, so there isn't books. and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, $6571.00. and i'm a veteran, a book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble once every bogus, suddenly showing year to warn the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in focus eligibility was about and showed to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal at a furnace 3rd gobbled. it would become, you know, the so called black borders,

because there is a horse trade countries. so the other said like america elected trabusia decade. so that flag production is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79. i was not getting into letters, but the thing that was heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick indian, the sh, told row. and now the soviet and india friendly super about the risk for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the job of the net, correct? or is you put it, or you made a pact with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some $80000.00 lives and over

a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile, judicious, know the board to some people i own going to look and always us than what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever, push one page years. and ultimately, that border becomes to go at least from a foreign fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price, you will be to take to pay it. because in this particular with that claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable resistance, and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or, or said will come and see it. now here is the money here or the purpose. well some people, me how, but why did something covertly so 20 years if you have who of which 230. and i'm in the process now and can see a finance then as again, independent,

america diminished. went away, we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. $20000000.00 dash the type of price. countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree, issue all was more complex. you snorted. the scene offered the people that we are

who resisted. we want to go that we will not become record you love understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation will. yeah. one population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very unhappy that the back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble. so they will, kirsty americans bought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus? this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans, because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it

security to neither or thought that it outsource that security to nathan, the americans, they expected the west to come to their advances and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the show ritual. dear. dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. the list and had started with baggage any i say by british as a similar lean case of the sun, we may have given you some sort of a water bill insurance about certain things deep don't we were not cooperating with the medical people and then you worked then she'd double game and sean, what? well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable. that the but they will to them out to that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her,

if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left, i ian ray, one can talk about, you know, along over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport. nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if their dad took place. if the must go tech, you remember, we will not be able to do it late, they could not deletion of any the cook, you better leave because we're leaving, otherwise you'll be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o chose this look at some of the gulf states. so there are some exceptions to

this role when americans were true to their worth. for example, that with israel, israel did not set away without american support. that we should know. it would be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic debt. these in united states, but is that the only country that there is a lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not, well after the other than the 71 war structured with, or 65 or 71 war at that day, the so called a sport back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up fresh, good to go. sure, mr. director, we have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah, a

with ah. so come back to was a far as with a sad to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. dirani. and you wrote recently that can't that any country or any big country

would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as was insecurities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all done, at least for let's say, some configuration, some group of, of countries in the region. yes, sure. you rotate google shame that there is no such thing. the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you, friends, world, your neighbors? you do try to workshop for example, marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is to get the americans out because they're, if you considered to be the mentor,

not the indians. traditional to run mended sensors with them because there were some problem. turkey in china dollars, good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, our people at that time g, creating bridges with moscow. i was there too. so trace, because you all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again, will follow that very interest look common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interests will be in america. will there be work on that particular thing for the cooperative before chicago? my still got now there is another configuration in which no renewal. i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and right sheesh and church i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now help question. we are all

friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika, celia perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it a shot on that russian plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look, but of others mailer, irritant, maybe. so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that anal allowances on made. some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we are drawn take on rashana will report full word stick small little sheet cream. yeah. if they are taken away, so that what, what is it because of that,

that we must war this whole piecemeal strategy, shalumi tech to some people call it means little work, little certain things happen and there's no one because the action is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because americans and native strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time until it was pushed into the wall. i guess. what do you think this russian operation would mean to the power of american deterrence? in terms of other countries defending their national interest due to loose is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. that girl tru tv,

the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of talent. you vulnerable country, like canada shoes may have plenty of our work. but everyone knows where the actually seizes read it as well. but you only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you arms or rules or your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no absolute. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear brachman. this is not reuse, but mere fact that we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can perfect. sometimes takes that because of this,

the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burdened, go to the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no come, lead a dull absolute ultimate data that you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs. now listen to running. you just mentioned nuclear deterrent. and the turns and her, if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this

year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to, is that a stranger, do you think or this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistanis or to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to be used against the russians. do you think the new career should offer you, chris? yeah. took place because of the essence for the control was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on the wish border, one of the conditions under which you can and became free. you tend to give up a new coverage under the tutor decal consumption that we're to were rep us. of course, i suppose there would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer our data. so that was sure that was what didn't clear was,

can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no, we cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered they mention no one even in the registers will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that, that part of that is gone. if they look the other way you can develop nuclear puts they can use to do that. in our case, we had a lot of about didn't use it that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came with a 2 or 3 years, the old program was already completed. the start, know the danger. i mean, they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the,

the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions, they are true true. i agree omit if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a will by take my assessment is that it cannot go on like of other districts are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting, because if you switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears we in rush and i as a worker, respondent and siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. they recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in heavily populated

areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now. the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, purchase the civilians. and as i, i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and they're also, i assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and air clear effort to try and rush again and share pariah and make putting into a senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that. at least in russia, as a country is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent take to oh, you know, the example that any country hash and that is weird, america's real superiority little means. and you could call the narrative the

control the media, even after 20 years, you can go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st. media deal to shoot has in certain but promise and credibility. and dick and drum circles around to others, people, they can influence and military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turnaround and the people did in the western europe and in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them the most gotten good, the best no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compared with so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy starting from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a very big weakness. but the real strength we're the here,

i'm talking about that talked about the other strength which can be breached. but this one is difficult because it is included in people's minds. so in that case they have done it. if only people like me, you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, it is our facilitators, not automatic people daughter, board reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american, we are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this has been in the orchestra. there are some other people who might come to that place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from the mag this, but not like americans like to say that perception is reality. understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality bill manifest itself. i mean,

it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct, you know, it's broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind by going to understand it because we've suffered from good as the best of efforts, we cannot put that letter till today, but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic deb tell the buffers . and the ukraine's it is such a bowler, goodman that he went somewhere lake and cassandra is not a sympathetic for the russians or for us or now where do you? and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often lately people in by noon pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read the charter for beach. we've come

to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the testing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas which no site can afford produce. and that is really started doing good discontinue formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it the run is formula. we have to leave it there, but i'm greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. hateful, thank you very much. so it was nice to be it and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on well the part ah, with mm.

blue l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point, obviously is to create a truck rather than a take on various shop with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with the 2nd world war. thank 2 millions of people

during the conflict with the balance of power was held by the leaders of 3 nations, the united kingdom, the united states, and the ussr that die in one day before the men tried christa peak, popish normally. because hitler was weak and new healing weak and he was bluffing. he was the major political figure, certainly one of the most prominent political leaders of the 20th century when they were support the germans of the germans. when we support the russians. and that way, let them destroy each other. there was that kind of sentiment in the west. at this time. the redrawing of european borders had begun britain and the united states, and then just any plan to attack the ussr of britain to survive. russia had to be sacrificed a this,

mr. boy from us as a lot of some ricardo, capital and mitchell knowledge of knowing that the cold war had begun with russian authorities investigate a drone bombing that struck the headquarters of the black sea fleet. in the crimean city of san i spoke with amir, potent lays out rushes new naval doctrine of national security and self defense. as the country celebrates navy day, the key here is the capabilities of the navy. it is able to respond immediately to anyone who decides to encroach on our sovereignty and freedom. and in the weeks top stories rushes foreign minister gets a warm welcome as he visits for african nations that despite western pressure for them to snub.