ah, with welcome to oil, that part, when the americans needed pakistan support then driving the soviets out of afghanistan, they quietly look the other way to allow islam about to put the finishing touches to nuclear bomb. fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are at loggerheads here again, this time in the ukraine who's president earlier this year. and now he's countries intention to develop again, it's nuclear military capability. would the americans look away yet again? if it were to undermine moscow, well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoined by

a sub dirani former director general of pakistan's into services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you a little come now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witness that follow the so we pull out from afghanistan, when you now hear west analyst compared the current operation to current russian operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in of gas done. and some of them, i think, predicting the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a state in ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate? predictions? did are many bedrooms between various situations. but the font is fun and who cream? i can think of a couple. anyone coming through a fun is fun. with the sushi,

the americans, our neighborhood. we used to college, city except lakes, tedford, one score ukraine, the strategic depth of russia. you called the near abroad because you know, the satellite nation who fell abroad, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance against to super bus. sure. which unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years. we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane. understandably, if witnessed nettle the note was next to us. it was bad enough that had his gun that far, but this is now the way. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become a member of nettle then contradict the guides because because that it is

a member of their lives at least under any as far as moscow can tell, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. now, pakistan, if i remember back that, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this is just one to french. one could go in ukraine and other neutral countries. and as we have seen, cannot physically intervene. but if the earth, if it was i'm a member, then i don't think her tricia could ever read it. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no contract or commonwealth for independent stage photograph,

but see a still from the up. i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral seats is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries, i'm entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above all your lunch leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. you don't need, let's say this record security is on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees,

about humanity graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken out so many years. it's war next door, sir. and sure if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief sauce. no man learns but horse. what do they mean? if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like i to, i can tell to tell you about bikes, we need it very badly in the neighborhood, or least in sage cash with, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement. that is, that very heavily installed only because of people in the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact, moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and it's, i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india. that latter your predecessors to,

you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an alternative. frankly, you, she had said before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire in our case, and became, you know, buffered against the northern shed. but it also, so there isn't books. and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, 6571, and i'm a retina book you in as junior officers, we knew that gobble once every focus suddenly surely toward the east. because and we, we didn't have to keep anyone or the rest because there's interest in boca, social security, was about, and showed to look after it. now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd of cobbled. it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is

a horse trade countries. so the other said like america elected through ship that so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in late the 7th night, i was not here to live villages, but the thing that finish button heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a net correct indian dish told road and now the soviet and india for a little bit about the risk for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can happen in order to get yourself out of the job of the nat kreckchar. if you put it, i you, i made a pact with an american switch later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some 80000 lives and over

a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is not the point to some people. i look and always ask them what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever. push one ph. yes. and ultimately, that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price, you will be to take to pay it. because in this particular with the rest of the world will at all say in this particular case, virtually via fun, valuable, and the resistance. and by august then virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or said will come and see it. now here is the money here, the purpose. well, some people may have, but why did something covertly so 20 years if you have who of which took their t. n a in the process now and can see a find a son as again,

independent america diminished. went away, we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. that's the type of price countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you are under somebody's food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or they are free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree issue all really more complex. you snorted the scene offered the people

that will do resumes to room, to go that we will not to become record of understand. for example, usually the so gordon lation will year one population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very on their beat that the of back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now the deliver dear, these people are in trouble. so they will curse, the americans brought us more than the book that anyone is. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no, we do get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans, because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it

security to neither or thought it out source that security janae then the americans, they expected the west to come to their defenses and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a myth that we cooperated with the americans? yes. when the show ritual there. dear cooperated with us. they came 2 years later. the listeners started with baggage the any i say my british esl similarly in case of her father, son, you may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things deep. don't revert, not cooperating with the medical people. and then you worked with double game and shown what, well, it was a compulsion. we had to do some t so that the italian mand remain viable, that they, when they will throw them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her,

if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left eye and ray, one can talk about, you know, on over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport or nothing is that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if they did that took place. if it must go tech, you remember we will not be able to treat leg, they could not delicious plenty the cook, you better leave because we are leaving. otherwise, you will be late show you saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o truces look at some of the goes teach some exceptions to this role when the

americans were true to their worth. for example, that with israel, israel did not set away without american support, that we should know. it would be very powerful, but ultimately the same strategic dep, this in united states. but is that the only country that there is a lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not after the other than the $71.00 war structured with, or 65 war and 71 vote at that time the so called a lay sport back and they said we could not, not against it, so you have to look up fresh. good to go. sure, mr. there, any, we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments station ah, here.

so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. time to sit down and talk ah, ah, hell come back to where the fire is with a son to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence mister dirani. and you wrote recently that can't, that any country or any big country would react to their security parameter is

outer or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as insecurity is like the dates in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but the relative security, if not for all down at least for let's say some are configuration, some group of, of countries in the region. you're sure you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no such thing. the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you friends? world, your neighbors. you do try to workshop for example, the loud kish. during this last 20 years, the effort was if the idea is to get the americans out because their to be considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to get on mended fences with them because there were

some problem, the key and the journey to always good problems. i am a beneficiary of, you know, people are that g creating bridges with moscow. i was there crucial trace because you all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again for that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take who, somewhere as long as those common interest will be in america, will there be with on that particular things as a cooperative? we 1st got my still got. now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i mean again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the main rivalry was going to be between china, right? sheesh and church. i and i was getting friends from all the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now question. we are all friends,

but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika, celia perky. what they did in syria, the russians did, so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it a shot on the production plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look, but of others, mailer, irritants. maybe so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that anal allowances on bid some thanks dave, me work very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we are told will take or rashana will report full. were those 2 small little sheet cream? yeah, they are taken away. so the what, what is it because of that, we must war. this is called piecemeal strategy. so let me take to some people call

. it will little work, little certain things happen. and there's no one rich because the reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because america and made a strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american, our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations, and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall. i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence, in terms of other countries defending their national interests? bitterness is unless we do so called full spectrum at all levels. dick girl should be the, the nuclear, the non conventional,

even sub convention when we see all gorillas and so on so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that well, unless you have that type of your talent, you vulnerable country, like canada shoes may have plenty of our but everyone knows where the actually seizes read it as well. rubin won't have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules of your then get panicky. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute earliest like no up . but yes, there are certain this is, is the nuclear douglas, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear blackman. this is not to reuse the mirror that we have in that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can effect sometime one takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money, the dish burger,

the server because of some people you know, so grew countries a layer lane up against you. so that is the answer to so it will be no complete the absolute ultimate there to let you just keep working in this direction . you try to cover your radius flex, now must underwriting and just mentioned nuclear deterrent and deterrence. and if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow sanchez, that's one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it,

even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to, is that a stranger, do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistan is to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to be used against the russians. do you think do career sure for you, chris? yeah. took place because of all the research for the control was with moscow. so this will probably the condition on that which border one of the condition under which you can and became free. you take to give up a nuclear weapons under the 2 radical cans. assumption that we had a water weber's, of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in their ability to defer or that is. so that was true. that is what didn't clear a bunch can do. in this particular case,

workers may have wished that they can not do anything. now, they cannot send nuclear weapons because that hasn't delivered they mention no one even in the united states, will agree with that. but the big factor, they do not have to use their to move that, that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear puts they used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came, the other 2 or 3 years, the whole program was already completed. they start know the deal. i mean, they don't start from scratch, they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientist, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the,

you know, we can make some assumptions, they are true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would meet to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks in a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of a low by 2 by an assessment is that it cannot go on like of other districts. there are 2 high, i want to ask you about the style of war fighting, because if you're switch on cnn, you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating. everyone wears we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east. the record swiss cheese style, when you have opposition areas next to government control layer, specifically because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in the heavily populated areas which for a long defied. and it's prolonging the fight right now. the military operation. but

you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians. and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as in military as an intelligence. and they're also, i assume a person who dealt with military matter is a lot, how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously from i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive, an air clear effort to turn the brush again and chip or i and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given credit for. this is the most potent victor, or, you know, with that any country hash. and that is weird. america's real superiority little means you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years,

you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st of media data. the state has get in certain, but promise and credibility. and they can drum circles around to others, people they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them. the most potent good, good, the best no one else we heard. very, very good. we can't even compare research so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the recent rear of the hair, i'm talking about that,

talked about the other stance which can be breached. but this one is, it is good because it does seem placed in people's minds. so in that case they have done it is holy people like me. you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, it is out of history. it is not automatic. people, not robert reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being a darker student. there are some other people who might come to their place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag. this is not like americans like to say that perception is reality. understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean,

it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any in a brilliant mind, by going to understand that because we suffer from good as the best of our 1st, we cannot put that right. it is right, but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about our strategic dept and the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowler good meant that he went somewhere late. can we, cassandra, is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or now, where do you? and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often lately people in by noon pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to be chartered for beast. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation,

a final project that will be the testing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no said could afford good news. and that is really started doing good discontinued formula. there are a couple of other things also that he's well electrical, it there on his formula. we have to live there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you, ma'am. i need food. thank you very much. so nice to be here, and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on was apart. ah with mm ah

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