ah, ah mm mm mm mm. welcome to, well, the price, when the americans live pakistan support than driving the soviets out of afghanistan, they quietly look the other way to allow islam of us to put the finishing touches to nuclear bomb. fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are at loggerheads yet again, this time in the ukraine who's president earlier this year. and now he's countries intention to develop again, it's nuclear military capability. what the americans look away yet again,

if it were to undermine moscow? well, to discuss that, i'm now in joined by a sub dirani, former director general of pakistan's into services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome, welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services. in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you're witnessed and follow the so it pull out from afghanistan. when you now hear weston analyst compared the current operation to current russian operation . ukraine to, you know, the previous one in afghanistan and some of them, i think, conducting the consequences will be the same that russia will be buried as a state in ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate predictions? did are many parallels between various situations. but the font is fun and you cream. i can think of a couple. anyone coming through

a fun is fun. with the saw show, the american sh neighborhood, bused to college shit, except lake stared forward once more you cleaned the strategic depth of russia. you called the near abroad because you know the satellite dish and who fell abroad. but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took a great risk the supporting the resistance agrees to super bus 12 unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years. we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red light. understandably, if witnessed, nettle, the note was next to us. it was bad enough that it does come that far, but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't,

didn't become a member of nato. then i contradict the guide because because then it is a member of their lives and this inter, any as far as moscow's consent, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into ukraine . now, pakistan, if i remember back then i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this is just one difference. one could go in ukraine and other neutral countries, as we have seen, cannot physically intervene. but if they are, if he attended summer member, then i don't think the treasure could have related. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about yours security parameters,

independent of no concern commonwealth independent stage for but she has to offer, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about those 2. well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral space is almost in a front. they always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. for example, if you have a personalized leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. they don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays,

the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity. grace is about is not because the water is broken out, was broken, our children, yours is war next door srr. and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand the relief source, no man learns buffers. what do they mean? so if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like, i think i can tell, don't tell you what bugs are. we need it very badly. the neighborhood on the eastern sage kashmir with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element engagement. that is, that really heavy here is short only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns. and if i'm about need to have ghana,

stan as its own buffer his own against india, that latter your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacqueline against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i don't think there was an opportunity, frankly, you hudson before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case, it became, you know, buffered against the northern shed, but it also, so the other books and there is, whenever we were given who was with india, 6571. and i remember to no book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble once every bogus, suddenly showing here to warn the east because we, we didn't have to keep any one of the rest because there's interest in boca social security was about and showed to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd of

cobbled, it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is a horse trade countries. so the shade like america liked to ship that. so that flag protection is also gone. i remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79. i was not getting into letters, but the thing that was heard about that there was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut. crick indian, the huge told rope. and now the soviet and india for a little bit about the risk for that event. that becomes the scenario. you will do whatever you can. but in order to get yourself out of the jaws of the nutcracker, is you put it. or you made a pact with an american's which later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american led warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken,

some $80000.00 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile shoot, this is know the point to some people i own going to look and always us than what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever, push one period 2 years. and ultimately, that border becomes to go at least from a forum, fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price, you will be to take to pay it. because in this particular with their claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable resistance, and by august and virtually we were all or neural hardly any one or, or said want to come and say, now here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people, me how, but why did something covertly so 20 years if you have 2 of which took their ting

and i did the process now and can see a finance then. as again, independent, america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean, countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. that's the type of price countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country or you are under somebody. so yeah, because i mean, the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree,

issue all was more complex. you snorted the scene offered to compare people that we are who resisted. we want to go that we will not become record you love understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation will, you won't population there. walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time. and now the big american they have, and they are very unhappy that they have gone back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money now for deliver dear. these people are in trouble, so they really curse. the americans bought us more than the more than anyone else. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. no, we do get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected

from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it outsource that security janae then the americans, they expected the west to come to their advances and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the show ritual. dear. dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later. the list and had started with baggage any i say by british as a. similarly in case of her father, son, you may have given you some sort of a notable insurance about certain things deep. don't revert, not cooperating with the medical people and then you work it and they would double game. and sean, what? well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that they weren't, they will throw them out. that is how these games are played. no country plays

a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left a ian ray, one can talk about, you know, a wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport and nothing else that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang can if they did, it took place. if the moscow tech, you remember, we will not be able to do it like they could not deletion of any the cook. you better leave because we're leaving, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who

h o choices look at some of the goals foods, some exceptions to this role when the americans were treated as well, for example, that with israel. israel could not survive without american support, that we should know. it's a very powerful but ultimately the same strategic debt. this in united states is that the only country that there is for you, like, except those people who are going to depend, that they will go, we have learned it or not, well after the, when the 71 war started with or 65 or 71 war at that day with the so called the late sport back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up fresh, good to go. sure. is there any we have to take a very short break right now. we'll be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah

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hell come back to one of the cars with a sad to runny former director general of pakistan inter services intelligence. mister dirani and you wrote recently that can't that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as was insecurities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security? if not for all done, at least for let's say, some configuration, some group of, of countries in the region,

you're sure you're right. thank you. were saying that there is no such thing. the absolute quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are you friends? world your neighbors, you know, do try to workshop. for example, united kish, during this last 20 years. the effort was if the idea is for get the americans out because therapy considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to run mending fences with them because there are some problem turkey in china, they're always good problems. i am a beneficiary of you know, are people at that time g, creating bridges for moscow? i was there to so trace, because you all believe that these 45 country se used to you and call them again for that very interest look common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interests will be at america. will there be work

on that particular thing for the cooperative before chicago? my still got now there is another configuration in which no renewal, i'm and again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and united sheesh and church. i nice getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now help question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if they have no student centrally share yoshika. celia perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space. turkey human after it a shot on the election plane. if that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new grid game is so important that we are prepared to fall or to look, but of others, mailer,

irritants, maybe. so that on that point you can remain together. so this is the only way that i know alliances i've made some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we had all them taken rashana. very powerful. were those 2 small little sheet cream? yeah. if they have taken away, so that what, what is it because of that, that we must war this whole piecemeal strategy, shalumi tech to some people call it means little work, little certain things happen and there's no one rich because the reaction is so costly. so hazardous, well, let me ask you about that because america and native strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they are frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up

with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence, in terms of other countries defending their national interest? due to loose is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. that girl tru tv, the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that we have, unless you have that type of new talent. you vulnerable country, like canada shoes, may have plenty of our work, but everyone knows we're the ashley seizes read it as well, but we only have to say no more dollars. it will all be done and you arms or rules

or your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable, so there is no such thing as an absolute. it has like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archie's can only see was from nuclear bracket. it was not reuse but mere fact that we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can perfect sometimes takes that because of this, the me when become more insecure because of the money that was burdened, go to the server because of some people you know, separate countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no come bleed. i absolutely do made that to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius legs and i must under any just mentioned nuclear deterrent. and the turns and there, if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin

committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been astray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions to of the indian pakistani conflict. and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced at the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one other thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation is it to, is that a stranger, do you think or this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistanis to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to to be used against the russians. do you think the new career should offer you, chris? yeah. took place because of the road. the assist for the controller was with moscow

. so this will broadly the condition on the wish border, one of the conditions under which you can and became free. you tend to give up a new coverage under the to, to tackle consumption that there to were where push of course, i suppose there were to have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure there does what didn't clear was, can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything. no. we cannot send nuclear weapons, will go, that hasn't delivered. they mention no one even in the united states will agree with that. but the big fact that they do not have to use, that means that, that part of that lives is gone. if they look the other way, you can develop nuclear weapons that we used to do that. in our case, we had a lot of about 10 years at that day. in fact, when the united states, you know,

the person amendment came whether 2 or 3 years, the whole program was already completed. they start now for the show, i mean that they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the soviet union, the scientists, the facilities and the knowledge, and as well as the, the american school. well, we in, nobody knows, for sure the full story of these really nuclear bomb, but the, you know, we can make some assumptions there. true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis, the ongoing groceries now 4 or 5 weeks in a few weeks, you know, super, some sort of a rule by 2, by an assessment is that it cannot gauntlet of other districts or do i, i want to ask you about the style of for fighting. because if you switch on cnn,

you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle is the recall and swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the, the use of heavy artillery in heavily populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians as i don't want you to take sides. but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as the military has an intelligence and they're also assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people, how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for, from, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and a clear effort to turn the brush again into

a pariah and make put in into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that at least. and russia can chechen is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent tractor. oh, hello. there been there any country hash and that is weird america's years for parity. little means new could call the narrative, the control the media. even after 20 years you can go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand this. she tells me the idea that the seat has in certain but prowess and credibility. and they can drum those circles around to others. people they can influence in military, we call a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become

sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them the most gotten good, the best no one else we heard very, very good. we can't even compare with so, so, so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from neighboring countries, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a very big weakness. but the real strength where the hair, i'm talking about that talked about the other strengths which can be breached. but this one is very difficult because it is in placed in people's minds. so in that case they have done, it is only people like me, you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find a very full intensity thing going in one direction, you know, deserve has 50. there's not automatic people daughter, aboard reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american. we are

entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this has been in the elk a student. there are some other people who might come to that list, but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from the mag this, but not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say. but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct, you know, it's broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. i can understand that because we suffered from it as the best of our 1st. we cannot put that letter till today, but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about our strategic deb 10 of the buffers and the u. krench. it is such a bowl are good meant that he went somewhere like henry kissinger is not

a sympathetic for directions or for us or no or do you. and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west, there's what we have thought of. and some very often, lately people in by me or in pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read for charter for peace. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the best thing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which new site can afford to lose. and that is where you start doing it, disclosing that formula. there are a couple of other things also that he saw a, let's call it around, is formula. we have to leave it there, but i'm greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you. ma'am, thank you very much. so it was nice to read and thank you for watching hope to

start again next week on well, the part ah, with mm ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be in arms. race is on often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk

with ah, the 2nd world war i think 2 millions of people were during the company to the balance of power was held by the leaders of 3 nations. the united kingdom, the united states and the u. s. s a.