ah ah, well, control the price when the americans needed pakistan support then driving the soviets out of afghanistan, they quietly loaded the other way to allow islam of us to put the finishing touches to its nuclear bomb. fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are at loggerheads here again, this time in the ukraine who's president earlier this year, and now he's country intention to develop again, it's new, clear military capability. would the americans look away yet again? if a tory to undermine moscow will to discuss it now and joined by a side dirani, former director general of pakistan's inter services intelligence. mr. dirani, thank you very much for your time. it's a great honor for me to talk to you. welcome,

welcome. so now you were in charge of pakistan's intelligence services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, i'm sure you witnessed that, followed the so it pull out from afghanistan. when you now hear western analyst comparing the current operation to current russian operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in afghanistan, and some of them, i think, predicting the consequences will be the same, that russia will be buried as a stayed in the ukraine. what are your thoughts? do you think those are accurate? predictions did are many parallels between various situations. but upon a sun anyhoo cream, i can think of a couple. anyone coming through a fun is fun, but it should show the american sh, our neighborhood. we used to color to shoot to use it like straight forward once cordial, green, the strip of russia now called the new to,

to be with because you know, the satellite nation who fell abroad, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. so we took great risk the supporting the resistance against gu, super bus trowbridge unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years we have seen 2014 was the 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if witnessed, nettle the note was, next door's, it was bad enough that had, has come that far. but this is now the work. now if it happened, suddenly you couldn't, didn't become a member of nettle then contradict the negative because because then it is a member of their lives. and this under any, as far as moscow can tell, there is no difference between them being officially a member of neither or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you

korean. now, pakistan, if i remember back than i, you know, back in the eighty's, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for this is just one to french. one could go in ukraine and know that no to increase every, as we have seen, cannot physically intervene. but if the earth, if it was, i'm a member, then i don't think a tricia could have related. but all the differences and the similarities can we talked about. but that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth for independent stage photograph, but she has to offer, i mean, these things are creature so that you should go in. i'll tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that? because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly,

but that's the view that they are articulate to them. this idea of buff resumes on neutral states is almost in a fraud. they always claim that smaller countries, i'm entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how they're going to provide for their security, or whether they're going to outsource it to somebody else. isn't that simple? it is because in their case they couldn't afford to talk about it. for example, if you have above, holy lunch leg now to invest in europe. this seems good. the you don't need, let's see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. but there are countries or buses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity graces about is not because the water is broken out, was broken actually, is this water next door, sir? and so if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief source,

no man learns because what do they mean? so if you don't, you sure. if you think that you don't need it, you will say that you don't need it. but countries like i think i can tell to tell you about bikes, we need it very badly over the neighborhood, or least, and sage cash with, with the problem. amongst many things, there is one element in cash mirror. that is, that was very heavily short only because of people the territory, but it also provides a little more security to anyone who controls it. i think it was in fact moscow's in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and it's, i'm about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer zone against india that led to your predecessors to, you know, support the more jacket in against the soviets in afghanistan. in hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush,

i don't think there was an alternative, frankly you, she, if her son before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. in our case and became, you know, buffered against the northern jet. but it also doesn't books. and there is, whenever we were, we went to was with india, 6571, and i'm a retina book you in a junior officer, we knew that gobble once every focus suddenly surely toward the east. because we, we didn't have to keep anyone or the west because there's interest in focus eligibility was about and showed to look after it. now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal, at a furnace 3rd of cobbled, it would become, you know, the so called black borders because there is a horse trade countries. so the other said, like america elected trabusia that so that flag protection is also gone.

i remember when this happened when the service came in, like the 7th night of a slot here to live villages. but the thing that was heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of net correct indian dish told road. and now the soviet and the india for lisa. but about the rest for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can happen in order to get yourself out of the job of the net, correct. or if you put it, or you made a pact with an american switch later led to your participation pakistan's participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if i'm not mistaken, some 80000 lives and over a $100000000000.00 in damage to the economy. and do you think that was worthwhile? you shoot, this is not the point to some people. i look and always ask them what was the option at that time and said in the $79.00 and whatever push one period. yes. and

ultimately, that border becomes a good news from a forum fallen military in this particular case 20 years. oh, so if we continue to do that, if the rivers price will be to tend to pay it because in this particular with their claim, the rest of the world will that are saying in this particular case, visually via fun, valuable. and the distance and bag is done virtually. we were all or not, or hardly anyone or said, we'll come and see it. now, here is the money here or the purpose. well, some people may have, but why did something covertly so 20 years. if you have who have withstood their t, n a in the process now and can see a finest, then as again independent america diminished. went away. we all considered that is to be a great success. if you tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. don't tell me that people do not

know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. they're still type of price. countries paying for freedom. if they don't want debate, fish, of course you can be of the colony. you can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really? so start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebody's or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. yes, i agree, issue all was more complex. you snorted the scene offered to compare people there to be able to resist that we want to go that we will not to become record of understand. for example, usually the so gordon lation, william firnbach lation there,

walrus collaborated with the so we're stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very on their beat the back because in the process they were doing well, we're getting money, no, the developer. dear. these people are in trouble. so they will, kirsty americans brought us more than the more than anyone else. but this is a paradox that exists everywhere. nowhere do you get a complete national consensus. this is what you should do. can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine? i'm in the question of pakistan's cooperation with americans, because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. it seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought that it out source, that security janitta in the americans. they expected the west to come to their defenses, and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army.

do you see any parallels between green and pakistan? this is a mystery. cooperated with the americans. yes. when the show ritual, dear, dear cooperated. thus they came 2 years later, the list and started with baggage the any i say by british as a. similarly, in case of her son, you may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things deep don't we were not cooperating with the medical people and they knew about it and they should double game. and sean, well, it was a compulsion. we had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out to that is how these games are played. no country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that he's been left eye and

ray, one can talk about you know, a wrong over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity, he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport and nothing else that the americans did not. you will tell them in dang, if they detect took place. if the moscow tech, you remember, we will not be able to do it late, they could not delicious. when the cook, you better leave because we're leaving, otherwise you will be late. so you're saying that this is a pattern on the part of the american security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. and then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o chose this. look at some of the gulf states. some exceptions to this role when the americans were true to that, where for example, that with israel israel, it could not sort of wave without american support,

that we should know. it would be very powerful, but ultimately be asleep, strategic debt this in the united states. but is that the only country that there is a free, lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not. well, after the, when the 71 war started with or 65 or 71 war at that day, the so called the last 40 back and they said we could not, not against it. so you have to look up fresh. good. is there any we have to take a very short break right now? we'll be back in just a few moments station. ah, [000:00:00;00] for

a with with ah

ah ah welcome back to where the fire is with a sun to run a former director general of pakistan, inter services intelligence, mr. jerone. and you wrote recently that can't, that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. and i think security as well as in securities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. it's always relative, depending on many conditions. do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security,

but the relative security, if not for all done at least for let's say, some configuration, some group of of countries in the region. yes, sure. you're right. tank who will saying that there is no such thing as absolution . quality this submit. but depending upon your environment, who are your friends, who are your neighbors? you do trade to work culture. for example, in our case, during this last 20 years, the effort was if the idea is for get the americans out because they're be considered to be the mental it, not the indians reached out to run mended fences with them because there was some problem. turkey in china, they're always good problems. i am a beneficiary of, you know, people at that time g, creating bridges with moscow. i was there to so trace because you all believe that

these 45 countries i used to you and call them again will follow that very interesting common. the commonality of interest will take you somewhere. as long as those common interest will be in america, will there be with on that particular things as a cooperative me 1st because my still got. now there is another configuration in which no renewal. and again, there's no mystery. for example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china, right, sheesh and church. i and i is getting friends from all the place, especially the most important from the chinese. now help question. we are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. if there are no student centrally share yoshika. celiac perky what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space dirty human after it a shot on the election plane. if that thing was mentioned,

that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego or to look whatever those mailer irritant. maybe. so that on that point you can remember, well, so this is the only way that i know alliances are made. some thanks, dear me work. very often they will lot because one will say no, because of that we have a lot of new take on rachada report. full word. stick. small little sheet cream. yeah. if they are taken away, so that what, what is it because of that, that we must go abroad. this whole business strategy shall immediately some people call it a little weird little certain things happen. and there's no one rich because reaction is so costly, so hazardous. well, let me ask you about that because america and made a strategy are for a long time,

has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if they're frustrated, would be too scared by the american. our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. what do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their national interests? bitterness is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. dick girl, to tv, the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. we also can talk about, you know, the financial humidity that well, unless you have that type of returns, you vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our but everyone knows

we're, the ashley seizes read it as well. but we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get better. so all those people are vulnerable. so there is no such thing as an absolute dollars, like no option. but yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in our case, can only see was from nuclear brachman. it was not reuse, but we're affected. we have it. that does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. no, it can protect, it sometimes takes that because of this thing to me when become more insecure because of the money that you spend because the server, because of somebody will, you know, separate countries a layer the lane up against you. so that is the answer that, oh, there will be no come, lead the absolute do made that to let you just keep working in this direction. you try to cover your radius flex and i must, under any you just mentioned,

nuclear deterrent and deterrence. or if you go back to the ukranian conflict, i've heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons vladimir putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. and there's been astray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop nuclear weapons which the intentions of which were announced that the munich security conference earlier this year. and to the surprise of many in russia, no one saw the thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted that nuclear proliferation. is it a, bu, is that a stranger? do you think are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistan? is to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians are to be

used against the russians. do you think duke resolution of ukraine? yeah. took place because of the dea search for it or the controller was with moscow . so this will probably the condition on the wish border. one of the condition under which you couldn't became free. you take to give up a new coverage under the 2 reticle consumption that there were weapons. of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure that was what didn't clear up was can do in this particular case, workers may have wished that they can not do anything, no they cannot send nuclear weapons, will go, that hasn't delivered, they mention no one even in the united church will agree with that. but the big factor they do not have to use. that means that that part of that is gone. if they look at the other way,

you can develop nuclear puts they grew used to do that. in our case, we had a level of about didn't use it that day. in fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the presume and went to liverpool 3 years, the whole program was already completed. the start know the deal. i mean, they don't start from scratch. they do have some expertise from the soviet union. the scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. but the, you know, we can make some assumptions. they are true true. i agree on that. if they already have it, that means that brute time that they would need to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis. the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks and then a few weeks. and i suppose some sort of

a will take my assessment to that it cannot go on like of other districts are too high. i want to ask you about the style of war fighting. because if you're switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker, respondent and siri can attest to that. we actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east, the recall and swiss cheese style, when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the, the use of heavy artillery in heavily populated areas which for a long defied and it's prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. but you do that specifically to, you know, patch. i'm the civilians. and as i don't want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. and they're also, i assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. how would people,

how should lay audience process this information? because obviously for fun, i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and air clear effort to turn the brush again and chip or i and make putting into senseless murder, murder. but i think he is more calculated than that. at least and rush as a country to is more considered of human life than usually it's given a credit for. this is the most potent factor or lower than that any country hash. and that is weird. america's real superiority little means you could call the narrative the control the media, even after 20 years, you can't go out and they may have suffered badly enough understand the st of media . it has to be in certain but promise and credibility. and they can drum circles around to others, people they can influence in military, we call

a psychological warfare. so if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe and in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them. the most potent good, good, the best no one else we heard. very, very good. we can't even compare with so so, so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. we don't, we can't do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. but the recent rear of the hair, i'm talking about that, talked about the other strengths which can be breached. but this one is difficult because it is in placed in people's minds. so in that case they have done it, it's only people like me, you know, i don't want to, you know, bad myself in the back. but having experience that once you find

a very full intensity thing, going in one direction, you know, it is our facility. there's not automatic people, not robert reporting objectively. and tracy journalism was the american way. there are entrenched ways of getting it done. so i could see that this is being in the orchestra. there are some other people who might come to their place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the shelf from them. so this is not like americans like to say that perception is reality, understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. i mean, it's inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because it's always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind by going to understand it because we've suffered from good as the best of our 1st, we cannot put that relatives right but just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic dep,

10 to the buffers and the ukraine's it is such a bowler good meant that he went somewhere late. can you, cassandra, is not a sympathetic for the russians or for us or no, where do you and he said, under the circumstances, the best solution was to make you clean the bridge between east and west. there's what we have thought of and some very often lately people in pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read the charter for beast. we've come to the conclusion. if kashmir can be made into a model of cooperation, a final project that will be the testing. so that's the value of looking after those very critical areas, which no site can afford to lose. and that is where you start doing good discontinued formula that a couple of other things also that he's well a, let's call it there on his formula. we have to leave it there,

but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. thank you. ma'am, i need to thank you very much. so it was nice to be it and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on well, the part, ah, with mm ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful,

very difficult time time to sit down and talk with officials up the self became the public. of course a bonus plan to make obtained permission to enter. that's the 3rd, the anita stress is del grades and tend to defend his countrymen. i think we have never been in a more difficult and tough situation than today. all i can say is that we will ask for peace, but i will tell you right away, there will be no surrender, and serbia will win her. that's in the 3rd populated north side winds and gunshot hood as to protest is set